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RZM

(8,556 posts)

104. You didn't clarify what you mean by 'sympathizer'

Tue Feb 5, 2013, 09:26 PM

Feb 2013

Is that what you think he was? Or are you shoehorning him into that description because you need a name to fill it?

You could probably also get an argument from the lawyers as to whether or not everything he said was protected speech. I'll bet a lot of it wasn't. Of course, that's not all that important to the point you're trying to make either.

I'm not saying this shit is pretty. Nor am I entirely comfortable with all of it. But I do think that 'sympathizer' is quite a stretch for al-Awlaki. I guess it would have been better to seize him and bring him back, but as I commented on DU at the time, how good of an idea would such an operation really have been? Lots can go wrong. I can see the logic, especially from a political standpoint, of serving up a missile instead of a complicated extraction mission that could result in dead US personnel and no al-Awlaki.

Court trials for anybody and everybody accused of conducting terrorist activity outside of the US may sound nice, but it's simply not feasible in the real world. The question is where you draw the line

It's a tough one.

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Remember how FDR executed American Nazi sympathizers? [View all] MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 OP

We didn't, Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #1

I updated to make my point clearer. MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #3

But FDR DID Drop Bombs on them... OneAngryDemocrat Feb 2013 #234

This is most definitely about "Americans in America"! xtraxritical Feb 2013 #239

Post removed Post removed Feb 2013 #2

Yes! Perhaps if he had, we'd have won the war. Nt MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #5

And the Bush family would be extinct. LiberalFighter Feb 2013 #12

... leftstreet Feb 2013 #18

correct that vile branch of destruction would have been extinguished Vincardog Feb 2013 #27

DUzy! SunSeeker Feb 2013 #84

Yes, but to be fair, old Joe Kennedy shared their sympathies n/t markpkessinger Feb 2013 #211

Henry Ford too. n/t Cary Feb 2013 #227

Yeah, ain't it kind of funny malthaussen Feb 2013 #230

Hi Manny! tblue Feb 2013 #116

And hello to you too! MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #151

And you have 'liberal' in your username leftstreet Feb 2013 #8

Are you serious? You are against Habeus? grahamhgreen Feb 2013 #72

Yes! It would give Obama cover! MotherPetrie Feb 2013 #128

What about internment camps without trial? JaneyVee Feb 2013 #4

Ignore those. WWII was a good war. n/t ProSense Feb 2013 #7

At least it was a war, not an occupation leftstreet Feb 2013 #9

Bush invaded and occupied Iraq. Obama ended that. ProSense Feb 2013 #14

Wiki: List of Foreign Military Bases in the US leftstreet Feb 2013 #17

Yes the Germans have a base in the US, it is part of Holloman Air Force Base happyslug Feb 2013 #249

Mostly they allow for medical flights and coverage.... Historic NY Feb 2013 #40

the us is still in iraq. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #108

We still have American troops in Germany. tclambert Feb 2013 #61

and a defined theater and declared enemies. TheKentuckian Feb 2013 #144

My point is that war throughout history has always been oppressive and f**ked up. JaneyVee Feb 2013 #13

who are we at war with now? HiPointDem Feb 2013 #131

Al-Qaeda. Hopefully be over soon. JaneyVee Feb 2013 #162

fail. there is no such thing as 'war' with an organization. war is a conflict between states or HiPointDem Feb 2013 #167

That still does not rise to summary execution hootinholler Feb 2013 #59

People died in those camps. JaneyVee Feb 2013 #64

It's awful that people died in those camps MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #70

They were killed by Govt soldiers. JaneyVee Feb 2013 #81

no, actually, most of the people that died died from routine causes. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #140

But more innocent Americans were killed by Govt soldiers than innocent Americans by drone JaneyVee Feb 2013 #161

actually, three american citizens have been killed by drones. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #169

not of torture, typhus or starvation, however. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #79

No, they were killed by armed guards with guns. JaneyVee Feb 2013 #83

'several'. not enough to make the death rate higher than the death rate in the general population. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #135

That's 1 more than innocent Americans killed by drone. JaneyVee Feb 2013 #164

you don't know who was innocent, or even what those killed supposedly did. not to mention HiPointDem Feb 2013 #166

120,000 resident aliens and citizens of Japanese ancestry were interned. OnyxCollie Feb 2013 #236

you forgot the US territory of hawaii, with about 150,000 persons of japanese ancestry. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #240

The US territory of Hawaii OnyxCollie Feb 2013 #241

yes, if 1/3 of the population of hawaii had been interned, the economy would have been HiPointDem Feb 2013 #242

Yes, your point stands. OnyxCollie Feb 2013 #245

i don't disagree. as do the rationalizations of obama's assassination policy based on specious HiPointDem Feb 2013 #247

That's cool. OnyxCollie Feb 2013 #255

They were deprived of their freedom. backscatter712 Feb 2013 #193

about those Internment Camps: bvar22 Feb 2013 #238

The Japanese never had it easy. OnyxCollie Feb 2013 #243

The War against the Japanese was horribly racist in origin, promotion, propaganda, and execution. bvar22 Feb 2013 #256

it was. my stepfather participated in the rounding up of japanese for internmen. i was astonished HiPointDem Feb 2013 #266

The Japanese internment OnyxCollie Feb 2013 #268

interesting. so was the thesis in the past, or are you still writing it? what was the focus? HiPointDem Feb 2013 #269

Aside from a few revisions, it's finished. OnyxCollie Feb 2013 #274

sounds highly interesting. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #275

Answer: ProSense Feb 2013 #6

I'm not surprised you approve of internment camps. Yet they are not executions. rug Feb 2013 #34

I'm not surprised at that silly comment. n/t ProSense Feb 2013 #39

I'm not surprise at the attempted snark. rug Feb 2013 #41

The point was silly, but it's understandable you're sticking to it. n/t ProSense Feb 2013 #42

yours is silly. interning people is worse than executing them without trial? what? HiPointDem Feb 2013 #63

I think we're ProSense Feb 2013 #87

i think your defense of the president's supposed power to kill anyone, anywhere, secretly, HiPointDem Feb 2013 #127

Really? backscatter712 Feb 2013 #191

How can you defend the end of Habeus? Does not every person have the right to face their accuser? grahamhgreen Feb 2013 #74

Lalalalala Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #208

Attack of the Clones in 3....2...1 kenny blankenship Feb 2013 #10

You only missed it by 4 posts. bahrbearian Feb 2013 #15

How can you say conclusively that he didn't? great white snark Feb 2013 #11

Because we have George Bush as evidence. bahrbearian Feb 2013 #16

Great answer! Th1onein Feb 2013 #20

Here's how we did it XRubicon Feb 2013 #19

Um, yes? alcibiades_mystery Feb 2013 #21

They were active saboteurs, not just sympathizers nt MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #22

Oh, right...and you forgot...not American alcibiades_mystery Feb 2013 #26

It's always a problem when ProSense Feb 2013 #30

I wish FDR was more evil, then we wouldn't have to worry about the BFFE. bahrbearian Feb 2013 #46

IIRC, one was a US citizen MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #33

So you are OK with executing "active saboteurs" but not those working with Al Qaeda to attack us? stevenleser Feb 2013 #35

I'm not OK with executing Americans without judicial due process MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #38

I'm not OK with it either. And it DID happen under FDR cali Feb 2013 #43

I trust that FDR was working to do the right thing MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #45

Wait, ProSense Feb 2013 #55

Yes, I trust that FDR was doing his best to do the right thing MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #60

What about the lynchings? Also, ProSense Feb 2013 #159

First off, health care was a fraction of the cost it is today, MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #163

FDR, as representative of the state, interned wakasa. he didn't target him personally for HiPointDem Feb 2013 #195

I'll say whatever I please here, hi cali Feb 2013 #216

yet you keep telling others what to do. ps: i never said the internment didnt destroy lives -- HiPointDem Feb 2013 #246

FDR did target Yamamoto. Personally... - n/t. lapfog_1 Feb 2013 #228

The commander of the japanese military. during a declared war. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #244

And we should have declared war... but not on a country. lapfog_1 Feb 2013 #262

We are in agreement. And that is IMO what is happening. stevenleser Feb 2013 #58

The memo is clear that the targets do not need to be involved MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #65

I'm going to do a larger segment on this during my next show but to give a preview... stevenleser Feb 2013 #77

It should be sorted out in much less than decades jberryhill Feb 2013 #85

In a previous show, I called on the administration to come up with a post drone solution to the stevenleser Feb 2013 #112

Who were the two Americans who decided to be al Qaeda? MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #90

It's your OP. If you dont think anyone was killed we dont have much to talk about. nt stevenleser Feb 2013 #91

That's not what I said. Nt. MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #93

I know, you want to play games instead of address the difficult questions. Its understandable. nt stevenleser Feb 2013 #98

No, you're putting words in my mouth nt MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #120

Case in point. nt stevenleser Feb 2013 #125

Anwar al-Aulaqi's son was 16 when killed by drone... druidity33 Feb 2013 #110

Yup, Griswolds safe. Muslims who speak out against US foreign policy? They might not feel so safe. Bonobo Feb 2013 #133

They are not only targeting people involved in active plots. limpyhobbler Feb 2013 #277

You have the wrong metaphor. Al-Awlaki was a Tokyo Rose-type propagandist, not a combatant leveymg Feb 2013 #82

That is one contention, the other is that he was involved in operational planning. stevenleser Feb 2013 #89

Wouldn't that be better established in open court? leveymg Feb 2013 #101

Sure, and as I said above, if they were in the capital of Saudi Arabia or Egypt or Jordan or any stevenleser Feb 2013 #105

We knew exactly where he was, and there's nobody aside from maybe the Russian President who we truly leveymg Feb 2013 #117

How is one an unobtainable fugitive with no US charges filed? TheKentuckian Feb 2013 #186

Hear, hear! malthaussen Feb 2013 #233

If they're out sniffing bat shit in a cave, who cares? Scootaloo Feb 2013 #205

I've explained why that matters multiple times now, I doubt that argument is new to you. nt stevenleser Feb 2013 #224

+1 nt MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #122

...and from my readings on this: none were in combat they were KoKo Feb 2013 #235

The CIA has stepped over a threshhold by executing US Citizens abroad who aren't armed and leveymg Feb 2013 #237

Attack of the history lesson. n/t ProSense Feb 2013 #28

except they got some kind of due process. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #66

EXACTLY! grahamhgreen Feb 2013 #69

Military tribunals alcibiades_mystery Feb 2013 #71

as prisoners of a declared war on a specific country. so usual wartime protocol, i think. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #75

Usual wartime protocol? alcibiades_mystery Feb 2013 #86

unanimous vote, however. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #178

But not normal wartime protocol...FDR invented the tribunal for this specific case on July 2, 1942 alcibiades_mystery Feb 2013 #182

i'm not trying to win an argument. you think obama killing anyone he wants is ok. i don't. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #183

Excuse me, sir alcibiades_mystery Feb 2013 #185

i wasn't attacking you at all. i was stating what i understood your position to be. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #187

You understood wrong alcibiades_mystery Feb 2013 #188

i don't care. your tone was uncalled for. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #190

You basically called the person a supporter of murder. That justifies a lot of tone. nt stevenleser Feb 2013 #231

Spies. That's a whole nother thing altogether. tblue Feb 2013 #121

Lord Hee-Haw exboyfil Feb 2013 #23

Here is audio archives of his war propaganda mucifer Feb 2013 #36

Did he get a trial? kenny blankenship Feb 2013 #49

Well, yes, but that messes up the point MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #54

No. Rex Feb 2013 #24

Talk to George Takei about how awesome they were to Japanese Americans catbyte Feb 2013 #25

did they kill them without trial? HiPointDem Feb 2013 #68

Mortaliy rates in camps very high. That's death without trial, esp. hard hit were catbyte Feb 2013 #76

What were the rates? MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #94

actually not. rates of morbidity and mortality were comparable to rates in the general HiPointDem Feb 2013 #100

Very interesting. MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #129

I met a Japanese-American couple who had been interned in a camp Art_from_Ark Feb 2013 #199

and i knew a japanese college professor who'd been interned -- who didn't. yes, those facts HiPointDem Feb 2013 #202

My point was that *even if* morbidity and mortality were roughly equal Art_from_Ark Feb 2013 #204

i'm well aware of that. the area near where i grew up was once covered with japanese truck HiPointDem Feb 2013 #207

Plantation labor Art_from_Ark Feb 2013 #265

i found this about another camp in the same area, 'jerome'. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #270

I actually visited the Jerome site, back in 1998 I think Art_from_Ark Feb 2013 #271

And his response was to hate the US forever? jberryhill Feb 2013 #88

If he did DonCoquixote Feb 2013 #29

To the Excuse Crew bringing up Japanese internment... Marr Feb 2013 #31

I thought the same thing quinnox Feb 2013 #37

uh, grab a clue: The OP used FDR to indict Obama. It's historically inaccuarate cali Feb 2013 #44

It's been brought up as a defense. Marr Feb 2013 #48

I think it goes like this alcibiades_mystery Feb 2013 #51

So FDR executed Americans without habeas corpus or trial MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #53

Yes, ProSense Feb 2013 #57

No, he didn't MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #62

That clears it up rather well, thank you. I think we're done, now. cheapdate Feb 2013 #115

How is it revisionist? MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #50

Of course they are. There is nothing inexcusable as any excuse will do. Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #210

I confess to thinking Prescott might have been a good example. WinkyDink Feb 2013 #32

Lame. MineralMan Feb 2013 #47

Executing Americans JEB Feb 2013 #52

Internment camps wrong does not equal drones are ok. Kalidurga Feb 2013 #56

+1 lunasun Feb 2013 #170

Washington did the same thing in 1776! grahamhgreen Feb 2013 #67

It seems you're talking about Obama here, so perhaps you should define 'sympathizer' RZM Feb 2013 #73

Was al-Alwaki proven to be an al Qaeda member? MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #78

Is it proven that MannyGoldstein and ThirdwayManny are the same person? stevenleser Feb 2013 #80

That's why we have courts and due process MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #92

The Japanese soldier got due process? What if it had been an American of Japanese descent and the stevenleser Feb 2013 #95

Awkward deflect there Leser. Al-Awlaki never held a gun, as far as we know. Again, wrong metaphor leveymg Feb 2013 #97

Is it? You want me to tell you the mindset and daily activities of someone 10000 miles away? stevenleser Feb 2013 #102

You don't know who al-Awlaki was because that's classified. But, it's clear what his role was, leveymg Feb 2013 #113

Wikipedia disagrees with you. Apparently you are not as well informed as you think stevenleser Feb 2013 #124

Is Wiki the extent of your research? Why start with events in 2006? leveymg Feb 2013 #139

Here's a NYT story about the FBI taking an interest in him going back to 1999 and his 9/11 hijackers leveymg Feb 2013 #156

You didn't clarify what you mean by 'sympathizer' RZM Feb 2013 #104

Thank you! treestar Feb 2013 #217

I'm an FDR Dem, & possibly infused with Teddy Repub KakistocracyHater Feb 2013 #96

Both parties have become unhinged from the 99%, and unhinged from reality and evidence MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #136

And Third Party Manny finally makes an appearance...nt SidDithers Feb 2013 #179

yes the "leaders" have lost their minds KakistocracyHater Feb 2013 #212

We didn't try the ones that joined German Army and shot at us SpartanDem Feb 2013 #99

Remember when he firebombed the city of Dresden killing 25,000 people? Drunken Irishman Feb 2013 #103

in a declared war on a specific country. as opposed to an undeclared war on 'enemies' anywhere HiPointDem Feb 2013 #106

Oh! Got ya'. Drunken Irishman Feb 2013 #107

What's 25,000 people? ProSense Feb 2013 #111

That's the 'official' count. Some believe 600,000 died. Drunken Irishman Feb 2013 #114

far from trying to 'explain away' anything, i'm explaining the difference between the firebombing HiPointDem Feb 2013 #123

You're right. There is a difference... Drunken Irishman Feb 2013 #126

Wouldn't it be wild if ProSense Feb 2013 #130

I guess DU would be fine with another war... Drunken Irishman Feb 2013 #137

We're no more in favor of more war than you're in favor of MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #141

Didn't the ProSense Feb 2013 #142

Not according to the courts that heard the case MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #145

So, if the Supreme Court rules drones are okay, you'll be okay with it too? Drunken Irishman Feb 2013 #147

The drones are not the problem MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #153

If they rule Obama is perfectly within his rights... Drunken Irishman Feb 2013 #158

So you supported the Internment? n/t ProSense Feb 2013 #149

No. Constitutional does not equal right. MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #152

So FDR was wrong? n/t ProSense Feb 2013 #155

He was certainly wrong sometimes. MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #157

Was the Internment brutally wrong? n/t ProSense Feb 2013 #160

In my opinion, yes. MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #165

"But apparently it wasn't unconstitutional." ProSense Feb 2013 #168

So, basically, do nothing? Drunken Irishman Feb 2013 #146

No. MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #150

We don't know exactly what the process has been... Drunken Irishman Feb 2013 #154

Do you trust the Presidency regardless of occupant with such power? TheKentuckian Feb 2013 #203

Meh... Drunken Irishman Feb 2013 #206

Bullshit, a logical construct based on present trust in Obama and a rhetorical trick TheKentuckian Feb 2013 #273

Why do I think that if Pres Obama was carpet bombing Iran, you would support it? nm rhett o rick Feb 2013 #189

i agree, more died at dresden than in obama's assassinations. however, that's really quite HiPointDem Feb 2013 #148

Not very secret apparently. Drunken Irishman Feb 2013 #171

after the fact. nameless body counts. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #172

Isn't that how it generally works? Drunken Irishman Feb 2013 #173

that's how it works in war. but this is not war; it's a president declaring he has the power to HiPointDem Feb 2013 #180

So, it comes back to you being okay with it if Obama declares war... Drunken Irishman Feb 2013 #181

massive fight with *who*? HiPointDem Feb 2013 #184

Whoever you're angry over us droning. Drunken Irishman Feb 2013 #192

no, who would we be fighting a war with if we weren't doing covert war? who is this 'al qaeda'? HiPointDem Feb 2013 #197

Hopefully we don't fight 'em... Drunken Irishman Feb 2013 #198

I have beachfront property in Waziristan, just waiting for you.... Democracyinkind Feb 2013 #213

I'm not uninformed. I support it. Drunken Irishman Feb 2013 #214

If you'd bother to actually read about the subject, you'd know that most America-hating Democracyinkind Feb 2013 #215

I don't think you understand. Drunken Irishman Feb 2013 #251

I do understand. Democracyinkind Feb 2013 #252

So, ignore 'em? Let 'em fester? Drunken Irishman Feb 2013 #253

Then maybe sulphurdunn Feb 2013 #260

Yes. And that was part of an effort to break Germany's will MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #118

"Awful stuff, awful. But perhaps less awful than the alternatives." ProSense Feb 2013 #119

Should the US have attacked Germany? Nt MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #132

Could you imagine if a drone could have taken out Hitler and his top officials? ProSense Feb 2013 #134

Droning Hitler would be fine. MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #138

The policy was NOT to target Hitler. There was no help given assassination attempts. leveymg Feb 2013 #222

TARDIS bobduca Feb 2013 #226

K&R (n/t) a2liberal Feb 2013 #109

Empires behave in ways democracies really don't. nadinbrzezinski Feb 2013 #143

Remember when FDR put 125,000 Japanese Americans into Internment Camps?...nt SidDithers Feb 2013 #174

Remember when FDR developed atomic weapons?... nt SidDithers Feb 2013 #175

This message was self-deleted by its author SidDithers Feb 2013 #176

Remember when FDR refused to invite Jesse Owens to the White House, 'cause he was black?...nt SidDithers Feb 2013 #177

No I dont remember and I am old and I doubt you remember. Do you have a point Sid? nm rhett o rick Feb 2013 #194

Remember when he had a warship turn around to go pick up his dog? RZM Feb 2013 #218

Ok Manny, which of your multiple personalities is speaking here? rhett o rick Feb 2013 #196

Manny destroys the rationale of these wannabe autocrats so easily LittleBlue Feb 2013 #200

well said!!!! robinlynne Feb 2013 #201

A sympathizer is not the same as someone actively plotting and participating.... Duppers Feb 2013 #209

Remember how FDR killed 23 American POWs in Hirosima? JoePhilly Feb 2013 #219

That' a very misleading title. MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #221

FDR provided the means. JoePhilly Feb 2013 #225

I believe that the question is narrower than MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #248

That's not very accurate. JoePhilly Feb 2013 #250

FDR signed an EO to imprison law-abiding citizens obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #220

No, but I do remember how Nazis executed FDR sympathizers Zorra Feb 2013 #223

I start out with my strong opinion about the memo. Cary Feb 2013 #229

There are some rather odd things about al-awlaki's bio. this video is interesting for a little HiPointDem Feb 2013 #267

Maybe, but you're suggesting something above my pay grade Cary Feb 2013 #272

Your experience with espionage and intrigue doesn't include the knowledge that intelligence HiPointDem Feb 2013 #278

We should demand to see the immigration paperwork of the 10k nazis they allowed to become Americans Sunlei Feb 2013 #232

Yep. We won that war by complaining about our enemies over the internet. Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #254

Another question: Kelvin Mace Feb 2013 #257

The Age Of 9/11: A riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma. With double-plus bipartisanship. blkmusclmachine Feb 2013 #258

Better start running the government by the ideals that you taught me. WHEN CRABS ROAR Feb 2013 #259

No internment camps sulphurdunn Feb 2013 #261

Remember how McCarthy era executed commie sympathizers tama Feb 2013 #263

I love a fucking mystery! lonestarnot Feb 2013 #264

I consider FDR the #2 president of all time, however, What about the Japanese? graham4anything Feb 2013 #276