General Discussion

duffyduff

(3,251 posts)

173. Oh, please. The things are a complete fraud.

Fri Feb 8, 2013, 12:19 PM

Feb 2013

You can NEVER save enough, unless you are highly paid to begin with, to have enough in those accounts to pay for retirement. You would need literally hundreds of thousands of dollars, which is impossible for the average person to do, to pay for retirement out of your pocket that would even compare with a defined benefit pension.

I am sick of the spin. 401(k)s were exploited by companies not to help workers but help companies save money. Pension plans cost a tremendous amount of money, while 401(k)s are cheap. Companies used these plans to pass the risk to workers.

Defined contribution plans are ALWAYS inferior to pensions. They are NOT pensions, were not originally designed to BE pensions, and should NOT be used as anything but supplemental savings plans supplementary to pensions and Social Security.

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401Ks are a disaster: Column [View all] phantom power Feb 2013 OP

We will have a greater need for social security in the future than we do now because liberal_at_heart Feb 2013 #1

those folk had the rules changed on them mid-game Skittles Feb 2013 #2

my husband and I started out with a company 401(k) liberal_at_heart Feb 2013 #4

401Ks were meant to supplement pensions and social security Skittles Feb 2013 #8

The 90s boom faked ppl out Johonny Feb 2013 #18

actually 401ks were promoted so that they *could* ditch pensions. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #49

Skittles is right. They were originally meant to marybourg Feb 2013 #54

they were promoted to the general public so that pensions could be ditched. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #58

Maybe I have a longer memory than you. marybourg Feb 2013 #59

i doubt it. maybe you are just more naive. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #60

Actually personal experience, and age. marybourg Feb 2013 #68

i also have personal experience, and age. most people do, in proportion to their years. i have HiPointDem Feb 2013 #73

The reality is that many corporations that promised pensions question everything Feb 2013 #69

they purposefully bankrupted themselves in order to ditch pensions, in many cases. i can't HiPointDem Feb 2013 #72

Not so much 30 years ago sendero Feb 2013 #210

bankruptcy for profit has been going on for eons. you can see the shape of it back in the time HiPointDem Feb 2013 #221

I have the same memory as you, maryb Skittles Feb 2013 #87

That's probably because we're old enough to remember marybourg Feb 2013 #93

CORRECT! Skittles Feb 2013 #148

They were also promoted as the a portable pension approach ProgressiveProfessor Feb 2013 #196

That was how I considered my 401k. A supplement. LiberalFighter Feb 2013 #83

Exactly. The 401(k) was introduced in the 70s as a supplement for the executive class Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #143

Excellent point about the stagnation of wages and inability to contribute to plans suffragette Feb 2013 #204

And even those who dutifully contributed to their 401Ks saw their $$ go straight to hell at least Nay Feb 2013 #144

It sure is a big win for corporations laundry_queen Feb 2013 #3

That would be me. jonthebru Feb 2013 #5

401(k)s only work if you're an amazing prognosticator. HughBeaumont Feb 2013 #6

They only "work" if you are extremely highly paid; after all, they were set up originally duffyduff Feb 2013 #24

I don't really agree FreeJoe Feb 2013 #66

That is basically what I said. They were NEVER intended as that, duffyduff Feb 2013 #96

They are somewhat interchangeable FreeJoe Feb 2013 #99

Not in reality zipplewrath Feb 2013 #112

My experience is different FreeJoe Feb 2013 #133

I notice you said "we" zipplewrath Feb 2013 #171

I think that we basically agree FreeJoe Feb 2013 #209

Message auto-removed Icecream man Feb 2013 #213

So the solution is lose your home now so you can retire later? uppityperson Feb 2013 #215

Message auto-removed Icecream man Feb 2013 #220

OK Mr. 9 posts who joined DU yesterday..... llmart Feb 2013 #224

I don't think you meant to reply to me FreeJoe Feb 2013 #222

"Recent and near-retirees"---Wait! I thought the Baby Boomers were living the Life of Reilly on the WinkyDink Feb 2013 #7

Well, we are indeed living the good life ... JustABozoOnThisBus Feb 2013 #11

yup Skittles Feb 2013 #12

It's been a long-range plan, mon ami, from ca. 1935. WinkyDink Feb 2013 #14

Precisely Sherman A1 Feb 2013 #9

i'm kind of glad barbtries Feb 2013 #10

me too, barbtries!! Skittles Feb 2013 #13

exactly. barbtries Feb 2013 #16

Yup, die at work, that's what I say- That way, there'll be someone around to deal with it NBachers Feb 2013 #81

And once they get their hands on SS... awoke_in_2003 Feb 2013 #27

Well, if you're going the Grand Canyon route.... RagAss Feb 2013 #38

Yep that would me my inclination too.......... socialist_n_TN Feb 2013 #40

Definitely. nt awoke_in_2003 Feb 2013 #71

They are a union busting trap libtodeath Feb 2013 #15

I remember when they were introduced Lydia Leftcoast Feb 2013 #22

i remember that too. we had one of those information sessions and were supposed to choose HiPointDem Feb 2013 #50

You're aware that you can shift your investments, aren't you? brooklynite Feb 2013 #164

Now a million isn't enough spinbaby Feb 2013 #97

I remember hearing that "millionaire story" too Art_from_Ark Feb 2013 #141

I remember when they were introduced as well. Le Taz Hot Feb 2013 #190

That's about the best analogy.... ReRe Feb 2013 #35

thankfully my husband worked a union job riverbendviewgal Feb 2013 #41

And a hostage for Wall Street. moondust Feb 2013 #63

Right. dawg Feb 2013 #189

It was just another attack in the class war. Jakes Progress Feb 2013 #17

They wanted to privatize Social Security in favor of a 401(k)-style plan.... lastlib Feb 2013 #25

It doesn't matter whether we go for it or not... awoke_in_2003 Feb 2013 #29

I'm often surprised by the amount of anti-pension sentiment here on DU Ratty Feb 2013 #19

Exactly YoungDemCA Feb 2013 #21

me too, and I agree completely.... mike_c Feb 2013 #30

It shouldn't surprise you... awoke_in_2003 Feb 2013 #31

I wish I had a pension nt abelenkpe Feb 2013 #33

Well.. its because we as state taxpayers are paying for your "nice" pension.. DCBob Feb 2013 #44

Taxes paid for govt workers' compensation, of which pensions are one deferred part. Gidney N Cloyd Feb 2013 #65

I was waiting for somebody to post something like this.... Bigmack Feb 2013 #70

Hell, yes. Nevernose Feb 2013 #137

+1 Starry Messenger Feb 2013 #161

+1 nt Live and Learn Feb 2013 #199

So you've fallen for the script? Jakes Progress Feb 2013 #82

Is it also "stupid" to note that states are going bankrupt trying meet their pension liabilities. DCBob Feb 2013 #90

Yes. Jakes Progress Feb 2013 #94

Well at least you didnt directly call me stupid.. DCBob Feb 2013 #95

At least you didn't call working American's thieves. Jakes Progress Feb 2013 #103

"greedy thieves" WTF?? DCBob Feb 2013 #104

The pension obligation shortfalls are certainly a burden but the pension systems didn't cause it. Gidney N Cloyd Feb 2013 #117

Still not getting it. Or just refusing to admit. Jakes Progress Feb 2013 #121

I think there are many Democratic governors who agree with my statements. DCBob Feb 2013 #123

no, it's bullshit shanti Feb 2013 #134

DCBob, you need to understand that a pension is not a "gift" or "bonus" tblue37 Feb 2013 #150

Well there wouldnt be a problem if it worked the way you described. DCBob Feb 2013 #152

When my sister’s 3 kids were very young, from infancy to elementary tblue37 Feb 2013 #157

You've gone way past the level where you could be considered just uninformed. Jakes Progress Feb 2013 #182

The poster you are responding to JanMichael Feb 2013 #154

They fall for it or they support it. Jakes Progress Feb 2013 #183

Exactly. n/t duffyduff Feb 2013 #187

Ooooh. Yet another corporate line and lie. Jakes Progress Feb 2013 #181

People think that because they have taken a hit or that they never had a pension, duffyduff Feb 2013 #188

We were heading toward that Jakes Progress Feb 2013 #198

They are going bankrupt LondonReign2 Feb 2013 #160

That funding point it certainly true for my pension Ratty Feb 2013 #170

The part that bothers me most, though, is the lie that tblue37 Feb 2013 #191

That's simply wrong. The state pensions were funded by deferred earnings of state workers. Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #193

No, you're paying for a functional government... Hippo_Tron Feb 2013 #195

no i'm pretty sure it's because of something that actually causes that lancoholic Feb 2013 #206

Funding FreeJoe Feb 2013 #67

Bingo. SheilaT Feb 2013 #86

after reading this report I agree with your observatiion, I thought 401k would be good for most uponit7771 Feb 2013 #102

kick Liberal_in_LA Feb 2013 #20

LOL, I was at Data General in the early '80s when they rolled out their 401K program. It Flatulo Feb 2013 #23

k&r Starry Messenger Feb 2013 #26

401K programs are another get richer scheme for the managing organization. liberal N proud Feb 2013 #28

401Ks and Health Savings Accounts Teamster Jeff Feb 2013 #32

The road to Serfdom... kairos12 Feb 2013 #34

If/When I'm at retirement age and can't... DaveJ Feb 2013 #36

Pensions came from Unions, nuff said** MRDAWG Feb 2013 #37

"401Ks are great for me" DotGone Feb 2013 #39

Yes, 401k program sounded good on paper.. DCBob Feb 2013 #42

It doesn't work, unless you are a perfect cog in the machine. DaveJ Feb 2013 #48

Some people have done well with 401K and other retirement plans. nt bluestate10 Feb 2013 #43

and lot of people are fooling themselves Skittles Feb 2013 #45

There are basically two ways to do that. 1. Dumb luck, and 2. Learning how to manage investments. slackmaster Feb 2013 #46

3. Finding investment advisers that aren't ripoff artists, many exists if people take the bluestate10 Feb 2013 #57

+1 That's the problem...you stated it well. n/t KoKo Feb 2013 #109

and some people are doing well cause they bought the winning lottery ticket JanMichael Feb 2013 #92

I intend on working until I am 70 and then dieing shortly thereafter to satisfy the madinmaryland Feb 2013 #47

I hope you live a long happy life. DaveJ Feb 2013 #51

And what the fuck am I going to do??? Gotta pay the bills, you know. madinmaryland Feb 2013 #52

I dunno, but just sayin' DaveJ Feb 2013 #88

Thanks for reminding me how screwn I am at this point..... n't 2on2u Feb 2013 #53

K&R ReRe Feb 2013 #55

Wasn't that always the whole point? BeyondGeography Feb 2013 #56

The problem is they forced people into funds that had high fees, and not always still_one Feb 2013 #61

I guess I've been fortunate FreeJoe Feb 2013 #64

I have been fortunate mostly too, but one company I worked still_one Feb 2013 #77

I'm in the process of closing out one that was costing me about $100 per year as an annual fee slackmaster Feb 2013 #74

Most cannot rollover unless they leave the company still_one Feb 2013 #78

True. I quit that company about three years ago but hadn't paid enough attention to the fees. slackmaster Feb 2013 #79

You are correct a lot of folks when they leave a company do not still_one Feb 2013 #84

I have mixed feelings about 401Ks FreeJoe Feb 2013 #62

It bothers me a bit.... llmart Feb 2013 #75

It bothers me, the way they say it. DaveJ Feb 2013 #89

Companies could screw you out of a pension as well mythology Feb 2013 #76

Pensions only work if the company stays in business and if you work your whole career at one company FarCenter Feb 2013 #80

Another aspect, universally ignored by the proponents of this long-con, is the percentage Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #85

401k plans can and do work for many people, but only if they contribute. Common Sense Party Feb 2013 #91

Similar experience FreeJoe Feb 2013 #101

Problem is that just because they work some of the time doesn't mean they'll work all the time. HomeboyHombre Feb 2013 #105

But there are downsides to both of those. Common Sense Party Feb 2013 #107

Sorry, that's false. HomeboyHombre Feb 2013 #228

True, and I never said "only" for the poor. Common Sense Party Feb 2013 #229

In what universe were pensions guaranteed? ProgressiveProfessor Feb 2013 #197

A key issue that seems to be glossed over in much of this thread. n/t hughee99 Feb 2013 #214

401k worked well for me. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #98

How have you done with the latest crash though? KoKo Feb 2013 #111

This message was self-deleted by its author lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #115

Tell me the truth...Did you go into the Junk Bonds for Returns? KoKo Feb 2013 #122

I apologize, I misread my statement. My actual returns are not unlike yours < 10% lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #128

Thanks for your honesty in revision...I can understand.... KoKo Feb 2013 #136

You only lose when you have to sell at a loss. Common Sense Party Feb 2013 #175

Wife and I are already talking about passive retirement, this is disgusting uponit7771 Feb 2013 #100

99% of the posts here don't seem to understand 401ks or pensions and how they work.... cbdo2007 Feb 2013 #106

There are a number here that get it, so don't leave just yet. Dawgs Feb 2013 #113

DU has a forum for STOCK MARKET WATCH....there are folks KoKo Feb 2013 #142

There's nothing complicated about it for the average investor.... cbdo2007 Feb 2013 #158

Ahhhhhh yes, the venerated Stock Market Watch Thread A HERETIC I AM Feb 2013 #180

401Ks are no substitute for a pension. Every person should have a pension, period. There is no good stevenleser Feb 2013 #108

what happens when the company goes bankrupt after 10 years? cbdo2007 Feb 2013 #110

No, pensions are supposed to be independant of the company that paid into them. stevenleser Feb 2013 #114

Steve. Laws are laws. Pensions are attached to the company that provide them. bluestate10 Feb 2013 #135

Tell that to the employees of the bankrupt airlines and other companies ProgressiveProfessor Feb 2013 #194

I absolutely agree with you, but.... smccarter Feb 2013 #120

The disappearance of pension plans and the decline of Unions has gone hand in hand. bluestate10 Feb 2013 #138

Bingo smccarter Feb 2013 #147

Defined contribution plans are the biggest scams ever duffyduff Feb 2013 #140

Social Security yes. But the retirement buck stops at your own doorstep. smccarter Feb 2013 #116

With comments like those, I'm not sure you are on the right website. nt stevenleser Feb 2013 #118

Please be specific? smccarter Feb 2013 #119

And hey, when you refuse to address the real problems of America's economic woes . . . HughBeaumont Feb 2013 #124

So... you missed the point... smccarter Feb 2013 #125

You know, I re-read your reply. smccarter Feb 2013 #129

Uh, if anyone's missing America's real problem by a country mile, it sure isn't me. HughBeaumont Feb 2013 #130

Again smccarter Feb 2013 #146

Apparently, smccarter, life has been good to you and has handed you ponies and rainbows Trailrider1951 Feb 2013 #131

Funny smccarter Feb 2013 #145

Many of us took it personally because your original post in this thread was lacking in empathy stevenleser Feb 2013 #156

Point taken smccarter Feb 2013 #172

Look on the bright side: he likely is right there with ya on those drone strikes! nt Romulox Feb 2013 #159

And he is right there with you on lack of empathy, so, we're even! nt stevenleser Feb 2013 #168

Your comment makes zero sense, since YOU are the one excusing murder. Romulox Feb 2013 #178

Nope I am not, but someone without empathy wouldnt see that. nt stevenleser Feb 2013 #179

Utter gibberish. In the past I expected better of you. Romulox Feb 2013 #184

Says the person who accuses a majority of DUers of supporting murder stevenleser Feb 2013 #186

try reading your own posts? lancoholic Feb 2013 #205

You missed the point of my post... smccarter Feb 2013 #227

Most are expecting to work part time until they die on the job Warpy Feb 2013 #126

KICK! patrice Feb 2013 #127

wait shanti Feb 2013 #132

This assumes they even have a job that they can afford to retire from duffyduff Feb 2013 #139

I bet most of us are looking at the $120k number and thinking 'I wish'. Matariki Feb 2013 #149

Another huge privatization failure. aquart Feb 2013 #151

This is an incredibly misleading headline... brooklynite Feb 2013 #153

Except... meaculpa2011 Feb 2013 #155

Brooklyn Heights... brooklynite Feb 2013 #163

Understood... meaculpa2011 Feb 2013 #167

Plan on dying at your fucking desk, pole, mine shaft, restaurant, forest, canyon workplace. lonestarnot Feb 2013 #162

really? shanti Feb 2013 #200

Look again. I was referring to those not retired yet. lonestarnot Feb 2013 #223

your post was not clear about that shanti Feb 2013 #225

The idea that 401ks are beyond the wit of most workers is elitist claptrap. dmallind Feb 2013 #165

Excellent advice! meaculpa2011 Feb 2013 #169

Oh, please. The things are a complete fraud. duffyduff Feb 2013 #173

Nonsense. I know hundreds of average people who will have hundreds of Common Sense Party Feb 2013 #174

It's the same amount FreeJoe Feb 2013 #211

It's not that 401(k)s are "beyond wit" . . . . HughBeaumont Feb 2013 #176

7%, 20 years, $400/month FreeJoe Feb 2013 #208

But I thought the Dow was going to hit 36,000 under Dubya Dirty Socialist Feb 2013 #166

It did! But they forgot to mention it was 36,000 Indian Rupees stevenleser Feb 2013 #177

The fact is things are so bad because of 401k's, not in spite of them. raouldukelives Feb 2013 #185

This journal entry seems fitting for this discussion . . . HughBeaumont Feb 2013 #192

I am still not through the entire thread of your journal entry.... llmart Feb 2013 #212

The disaster was predicted by the left Warpy Feb 2013 #201

It's up to you Icecream man Feb 2013 #202

A 401K can get you a long way. FreeJoe Feb 2013 #207

I haven't had a good laugh in years. duffyduff Feb 2013 #217

You misunderstood my post FreeJoe Feb 2013 #219

Most people don't make enough money to even BEGIN to save enough duffyduff Feb 2013 #216

Message auto-removed Icecream man Feb 2013 #218

Wow this thread was linked to by Atrios. trumad Feb 2013 #203

You have a choice of a Pension OR a 401K HockeyMom Feb 2013 #226