General Discussion

GReedDiamond

(5,509 posts)

100. OK. So, as I've requested before...

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 07:48 PM

Feb 2013

...in previous posts, as a composer, performer and publisher of original music, what other means of protecting my financial interests in my work should I be utilizing instead of BMI or some other performing rights organization? Copyrights are but one aspect of protection, because without PROs, those copyrights would likely be useless.

BTW, while I'm more familiar with the Los Angeles music scene/clubs and other venues, I have played in San Francisco from time to time over the years.

I have very little sympathy for clubs who feel they should be able to use other people's work without licensing it. Additionally, it's not completely unheard of for these clubs to generally treat bands/performers like shit, especially those just starting out, so, again, I have a hard time feeling their pain.

Another request I made was to provide some kind of reputable source which shows that BMI and other PROs are using "shakedown" tactics on behalf of the artists they represent. So far, only anecdotal evidence of such tactics has been presented, unless I missed it somewhere. Otherwise, in reference to the article linked-to in the OP, one of the club operators was assessed a fee which amounted to $7.12 per day, in order to properly and ethically use other people's work as a draw to bring in customers. If that is unaffordable, that is a strong indication that the management is either disingenuous about the financial impact of those fees, or incompetent at running their business. Possibly both.

Anyway, no hard feelings, that's just the way it is, and we likely disagree no matter what either of us have to say, so I'll leave it at that.

ON EDIT: Thanks to whoever for the heart, if you happen to see this post, I appreciate it very much.

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Open mic nights at bar lead to lawsuit from BMI over music, ask for $121,000 [View all] The Straight Story Feb 2013 OP

BMI should be paying singers to promote songs randr Feb 2013 #1

So, can we sue BMI for releasing shitty music? Uben Feb 2013 #2

So there is NO song in the BMI catalog that you like. Wow, amazing. n-t Logical Feb 2013 #12

You do understand that BMI is a copyright agency and it does not "release" songs. Walk away Feb 2013 #126

Oh please.... defacto7 Feb 2013 #133

First of all, not all composers are performers. They may only make money from their creations. Walk away Feb 2013 #171

You certainly are passionate about your position. defacto7 Feb 2013 #174

And I object to people using other people's property to make money in a ... Walk away Feb 2013 #176

You have some good points. defacto7 Feb 2013 #182

Yet more BMI bullshit! n/t RKP5637 Feb 2013 #3

Yep. Even amateurs get hit with these lawsuits. mainer Feb 2013 #4

In the late 70s, I worked at at Pizza Shop/Bar in Pgh. I was there the day.... Junkdrawer Feb 2013 #5

Someone needs to go after BMI for racketeering. RC Feb 2013 #6

I suspect BMI pays protection money too ThoughtCriminal Feb 2013 #8

You do realize that BMI is a not for profit company that represents song writers rights. Walk away Feb 2013 #128

SEE post 133 defacto7 Feb 2013 #135

See post #169 Walk away Feb 2013 #172

I picture Mozart presenting an opera in a theater, amateur musicians singing it JDPriestly Feb 2013 #154

Composers deserve to make "a little" money for their life's work???? Walk away Feb 2013 #169

I think that suing bar owners for presenting a composer's music played by amateur JDPriestly Feb 2013 #180

The artists only see pennies on the dollar. RC Feb 2013 #157

Do you think the behavior described in post 5 is OK? 2ndAmForComputers Feb 2013 #158

It does seem like a shakedown muriel_volestrangler Feb 2013 #7

Less and less and less venues for young musicians.... Junkdrawer Feb 2013 #9

not to mention that with karaoke, money has already been paid, both by the company that made HiPointDem Feb 2013 #94

Protection racket. Pay protection money or they bust up your business. nt tblue37 Feb 2013 #80

Thats exactly what it is. HooptieWagon Feb 2013 #91

That IS racketeering. defacto7 Feb 2013 #130

I have a music publishing company... GReedDiamond Feb 2013 #10

People want free stuff, even on the DU. It amazes me that people think BMI should not.... Logical Feb 2013 #11

You know the juke box isn't free. You have to pay. Cleita Feb 2013 #14

Most artists who are not on the level of Beyonce, Justin Bieber or... GReedDiamond Feb 2013 #18

Really, on the radio, the TV and the Juke Box, which most saloon owners don't own but Cleita Feb 2013 #20

Most artist are never covered during open mic night, mostly A list artist hits. Exultant Democracy Feb 2013 #81

Why should someone get to play their music with no compensation? No different than someone using.... Logical Feb 2013 #19

Because if someone uses your photo or graphic art in a book or a magazine you get paid for it. Cleita Feb 2013 #22

The band is being played to play the music. They play popular music. Thus they are making money.... Logical Feb 2013 #36

Then shouldn't the band pay instead of the bar? (nt) The Straight Story Feb 2013 #39

Logical. Sometimes you show a pretty big lack of it and this is one of these times. Cleita Feb 2013 #40

LOL, you call your rambling 'logic'? I am subjects to billboard I don't want to see... Logical Feb 2013 #44

You know what's legal is not always moral. So try again. Cleita Feb 2013 #48

And some libraries LEND CDs which is fine. But you want a band to be able to play someones... Logical Feb 2013 #53

Buh bye. Cleita Feb 2013 #59

That explains a lot. You should have led with that and saved us both a lot of time. n-t Logical Feb 2013 #85

That's exactly what they want, Cleita. Their greed has blinded them to the inevitable end of Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #57

I am sorry, but you have no clue... GReedDiamond Feb 2013 #49

When it comes to BMI or MCI I do know, and you know from the content of your post Cleita Feb 2013 #50

Yes, I receive royalty payments from BMI... GReedDiamond Feb 2013 #66

The fact is they can't keep track of it at that street level, so they are keeping most of the Cleita Feb 2013 #71

So, I'd be better off withdrawing my catalog... GReedDiamond Feb 2013 #73

I don't know what you should do as like with everything in this corporate Cleita Feb 2013 #74

is your catalog played by bar bands in 50-seat venues? or sung on open mic nights by joe schmoe HiPointDem Feb 2013 #142

ASCAP (American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers) and BMI (Broadcast Music, HiPointDem Feb 2013 #113

I know, but I HAVE received royalties through BMI... GReedDiamond Feb 2013 #117

You can't play your own BMI registered music in locations that don't pay BMI... ThatCoffeeLady Apr 2015 #184

Wow! You've dredged up this over 2 year old thread... GReedDiamond Apr 2015 #185

Hello ~ ThatCoffeeLady In_The_Wind Apr 2015 #186

Exactly! HooptieWagon Feb 2013 #164

I know that pain all too well. EnviroBat Feb 2013 #165

not on open mic night barbtries Feb 2013 #102

So, those of us who can sit down a play a tune we have heard. Should we play royalties JDPriestly Feb 2013 #155

But the royalties don't go to the writer of the song being covered. HooptieWagon Feb 2013 #167

Yes, and the mostly lip-service paid to non-corporate, indie music... GReedDiamond Feb 2013 #16

what's the name of your band. I'll look for your stuff. If you don't want to post it please KittyWampus Feb 2013 #23

Most people don't come to DU for the music so I can understand why your ad didn't get a Cleita Feb 2013 #27

Yes, I agree completely with what you say here... GReedDiamond Feb 2013 #31

amateurs performing popular songs in taverns have never been subject to fees from song-publishing HiPointDem Feb 2013 #60

Do you think the behavior described in post 5 is OK? 2ndAmForComputers Feb 2013 #159

+1 graham4anything Feb 2013 #29

I'm not against musicians being paid, only when they keep getting paid over and over Cleita Feb 2013 #35

It's not about Madonna & the Stones. It's about the .99999% who you never heard of. graham4anything Feb 2013 #51

So how does making a rural bar pay a license for nothing in exchange help those musicians? Cleita Feb 2013 #54

Exactly. HooptieWagon Feb 2013 #58

Nothing in exchange? They make $$$ selling food and drinks at their place graham4anything Feb 2013 #62

The idea of owning a bar is to make money, but it's a Main Street type of operation, Cleita Feb 2013 #67

Unfortunately, it doesn't matter if they play songs in public domain. HooptieWagon Feb 2013 #106

so funny. the musicians don't get but a fraction of the price. it's mostly overhead to the money HiPointDem Feb 2013 #61

as an example-Do you give away your services for free in whatever job you do or have done? graham4anything Feb 2013 #78

the majority of song royalties go to the moneymen, not the writers. and it's the moneymen pushing HiPointDem Feb 2013 #84

Whatever. graham4anything Feb 2013 #86

wouldn't want the moneymen not to get their vig. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #88

I myself have asked at places if royalties are paid. And made a call. Because fair is fair. graham4anything Feb 2013 #97

yeah, the music mafia even tried to extort the girl scout songbook. because, you know, the HiPointDem Feb 2013 #122

What union keeps 95% of the revenue generated by its members, HooptieWagon Feb 2013 #166

Very good points, thanks...nt. GReedDiamond Feb 2013 #70

I was on a first-name basis with around 20 live-music club owners in SF in the 1990s. Robb Feb 2013 #99

OK. So, as I've requested before... GReedDiamond Feb 2013 #100

The difference here is in how you receive income compared to most dmallind Feb 2013 #173

I appreciate your reasoned, thoughtful response, which is encouraging... GReedDiamond Feb 2013 #183

I hate those people. They suck money out of bar owners for music that is even played on the Cleita Feb 2013 #13

It's not, nor ever was about copyright infringement. Initech Feb 2013 #28

This has been going on since the sixties and seventies when I was a bartender and Cleita Feb 2013 #30

How soon before individuals are hit with a lawsuit for singing while walking down the street, MadHound Feb 2013 #15

If you were making money at something like a hot dog cart for instances, they Cleita Feb 2013 #17

Henry Robbins is an idiot. I have several friends who own nightclubs & even -I- knew you have to pay KittyWampus Feb 2013 #21

Even original talent can get nailed if the BMI mafia come around and say that Cleita Feb 2013 #25

Fuck hiding behind copyright bullshit. It's about maximizing profit margins. Initech Feb 2013 #24

A quote from the linked article... GReedDiamond Feb 2013 #26

Some places operate as neighborhood bars and after you pay the help, other licenses Cleita Feb 2013 #32

The fees also apply to venues with juke boxes... GReedDiamond Feb 2013 #41

It's not affording, it's being forced to buy something you don't want Cleita Feb 2013 #47

I agree. They should be able to pay $7.12 per day. And it seems fair. Ian David Feb 2013 #38

They get paid for their music. Apophis Feb 2013 #46

I am not greedy because I expect to be paid something for my work... GReedDiamond Feb 2013 #52

I'm not saying artists shouldn't get paid. Apophis Feb 2013 #75

OK, if you say so, but... GReedDiamond Feb 2013 #83

that's how songwriters make their livings. do you work for free? spanone Feb 2013 #33

They should make money for writing songs. The artist who plays the song Cleita Feb 2013 #37

I like your response. Apophis Feb 2013 #43

why should you have to pay for the beer? it's gone through the distributor...hasn't it made enough? spanone Feb 2013 #55

Its more like paying for the beer, and then paying to use the urinal. HooptieWagon Feb 2013 #112

See my post a little down thread. HooptieWagon Feb 2013 #56

the songwriters don't get but a fraction of the price anytime their song is performed, even in HiPointDem Feb 2013 #63

Thank you. Most people who criticize BMI have yet to create anything of artistic value wtmusic Feb 2013 #69

Artistic value = money defacto7 Feb 2013 #137

there's not money in it mainly because of the dominance of corporations and organizations like HiPointDem Feb 2013 #144

Are you aware BMI is a non-profit organization? wtmusic Feb 2013 #150

bmi is the enforcement arm of the publishing industry, pure and simple. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #152

This is hilarious. wtmusic Feb 2013 #156

maybe 'publishing industry' isn't the right term; i amend it to 'corporations like time-warner'. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #175

Do you think the behavior described in post 5 is OK? 2ndAmForComputers Feb 2013 #160

What idiots--the music companies are greedy pigs and they need to be checked. MADem Feb 2013 #34

Plenty of ragtime in my neck of the woods. xmas74 Feb 2013 #64

Actually, yes. HooptieWagon Feb 2013 #82

I said "at a child's birthday party" not at a bar. MADem Feb 2013 #87

I know. Performances at home before a limited audience are exempt. HooptieWagon Feb 2013 #89

It's still asinine. Open mic nites are like amateur hour contests, without prizes. MADem Feb 2013 #90

Right on. Ed Suspicious Feb 2013 #129

BMI can go fuck themselves. Apophis Feb 2013 #42

Ha, BMI is far from the worst. Google ASCAP for a litany of thuggery. HooptieWagon Feb 2013 #45

I have dealt with BMI dsc Feb 2013 #65

Thank you for bringing some Reality into this discussion...nt. GReedDiamond Feb 2013 #68

This BMI writer thanks you for your comment. nt wtmusic Feb 2013 #72

How many songs in your chorus' repertoire? Fumesucker Feb 2013 #76

our profits are much less than that of a bar for three months it should be noted dsc Feb 2013 #79

I wasn't really thinking of profits but rather record keeping Fumesucker Feb 2013 #92

I would think a flat fee would be more appropriate dsc Feb 2013 #96

I was thinking more of live music type situation Fumesucker Feb 2013 #98

Live music falls on the performers not the venue dsc Feb 2013 #111

nope, they sue & threaten the bar owners, not the musicians. deeper pockets and more to lose. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #119

If the live group charges admission or charges the bar for playing dsc Feb 2013 #120

the bar owner hires the musicians and controls the door charge, so not sure how the band would HiPointDem Feb 2013 #132

so the band is making money for playing music dsc Feb 2013 #134

i don't know what kind of bands you're talking about, but most bar bands around here (and there HiPointDem Feb 2013 #149

so with karaoke & juke boxes you pay twice: once for the 'records/tape/digital recordings,' + HiPointDem Feb 2013 #148

Good lord. The greed is endless. Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #77

hear, hear! defacto7 Feb 2013 #138

BMI is hiring an army of barflies... Snarkoleptic Feb 2013 #93

aka 'spies' HiPointDem Feb 2013 #95

The bar I help out at a few times a week has polly7 Feb 2013 #101

Yep. And BMI/ASCAP won't sue the musicians, HooptieWagon Feb 2013 #103

That's just scary. polly7 Feb 2013 #105

They seldom go after the musicians, HooptieWagon Feb 2013 #108

I see, thank you for the info. polly7 Feb 2013 #109

$2,600.00 for a year to play anyone's songs period is actually not very much. Lint Head Feb 2013 #104

Thanks Lint Head, this is a tough crowd... GReedDiamond Feb 2013 #107

Most musicians that join bmi/ascap get *nothing*. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #115

I get *something* ... GReedDiamond Feb 2013 #116

most get *nothing*. And publishers take the lion's share. So the claim that taking dinky little HiPointDem Feb 2013 #118

OK so what else do you want me to tell you?... GReedDiamond Feb 2013 #121

"Taking dinky little music venues to court," or threatening them with such, is exactly what they're HiPointDem Feb 2013 #124

Happy Birthday is not the issue here, this is about... GReedDiamond Feb 2013 #127

you didn't debunk anything. & if a venue with 15 audience members & no liquor ain't 'dinky,' HiPointDem Feb 2013 #131

I have already received royalty payments on my BMI registered... GReedDiamond Feb 2013 #136

I made no claims about *you*. I said most get nothing, and that publishers and money men take HiPointDem Feb 2013 #139

Good night, I am tired of your total fucking bullshit... GReedDiamond Feb 2013 #141

"the long goodbye" HiPointDem Feb 2013 #145

Do you think the behavior described in post 5 is OK? 2ndAmForComputers Feb 2013 #163

But BMI is a nonprofit company (unlike ASCAP) and they have programs... Walk away Feb 2013 #177

non-profit is not synonymous with 'good'. it's actually not even synonymous with 'non-profit'. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #178

The amount varies. HooptieWagon Feb 2013 #110

+1. Good assessment. nt Zorra Feb 2013 #125

profit of $2000/night = average? hogwash. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #114

Don't pay the songwriters and musicians and they will go away. defacto7 Feb 2013 #140

actually, it's the opposite. make it impossible for local venues to host live music and musicians HiPointDem Feb 2013 #151

Those are my G, C, and D chords...pay up! Tom Ripley Feb 2013 #123

Once payment is made for use of the chords... Zambero Feb 2013 #146

Sing in the shower? Zambero Feb 2013 #143

bmi has drones for that! HiPointDem Feb 2013 #147

take a look at the place on google maps. it's a low-rent dive across the street from a cornfield. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #153

This message was self-deleted by its author 2ndAmForComputers Feb 2013 #161

In which I describe this thread. 2ndAmForComputers Feb 2013 #162

Are Jagger, Gaga and Sting even aware of this crap? SwissTony Feb 2013 #168

It's not "Mick Jagger, Sting and Lady Gaga suing SomethingFishy Feb 2013 #170

He didn't pay when he should have, and now is pretending to be shocked riqster Feb 2013 #179

you don't 'hire' for an open mike night. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #181