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In reply to the discussion: This Future Map Of The United States Is Way Cooler Than Any Current Map Of The United States [View all]FarCenter
(19,429 posts)56. Belin to Seville is about 1400 miles, while Boston to Dallas is 1570 -- And Spain is uneconomic
Mileages from http://www.worldatlas.com/travelaids/flight_distance.htm
For one thing, you can't actually get from Berlin to Seville on high-speed trains. There is no high-speed from Montpelier to Perpignan.
Whither Spains high-speed trains?
On January 9, the day after the inauguration of the AVE high-speed railway line between Barcelona and the Catalan town of Figueres, engine drivers Manuel Niño and José Luis Herguido boarded an AVE train in Madrid. Theirs would be a historic trip: they were traveling in the first passenger train that would cross the border into France on a wide-gauge European line, ending more than 160 years of isolation and finally making it possible to travel from the Spanish capital, via Barcelona, to Paris. What the two men noticed as they traveled the 131-kilometer stretch between Figueres and the French border was that the 30 tunnels and 60 bridges they passed through and over prevented the train from coming close to reaching its top speed of 300 km/h. The line cost 3.7 billion euros, and will never make a profit, according to recent studies.
....
So far, there are no independent studies of Spain's high-speed plans that suggest they will ever be anything other than a money pit. When asked by EL PAÍS if it knew of any economist or transport and infrastructure expert who supports the investment in the AVE network, the Public Works Ministry was unable to supply a name.
....
The facts speak for themselves: the Madrid-Seville route attracts around 14,000 annual passengers per kilometer, more than Madrid-Barcelona, but way off the 59,000 for the train between Paris and Lyon each year, or the 51,000 on the Cologne-Frankfurt line. This is not to mention the 235,000 annual passengers per kilometer who use the Tokyo-Osaka bullet train. Just to cover its operational costs, high-speed trains need a constituency of between 6.5 million and eight million passengers a year; none of Spain's routes come close.
Spain's planners seem to have forgotten that the country has closed high-speed routes for these reasons - the Toledo-Cuenca line was used by just a few dozen passengers most of the time. There are days when nobody boards the AVE at Guadalajara or Tardienta in Huesca. Tardienta has a population of just 1,000 people, but yet it has a high-speed train station. Is this the model that will connect up Spain and make it prosperous?
....
So far, there are no independent studies of Spain's high-speed plans that suggest they will ever be anything other than a money pit. When asked by EL PAÍS if it knew of any economist or transport and infrastructure expert who supports the investment in the AVE network, the Public Works Ministry was unable to supply a name.
....
The facts speak for themselves: the Madrid-Seville route attracts around 14,000 annual passengers per kilometer, more than Madrid-Barcelona, but way off the 59,000 for the train between Paris and Lyon each year, or the 51,000 on the Cologne-Frankfurt line. This is not to mention the 235,000 annual passengers per kilometer who use the Tokyo-Osaka bullet train. Just to cover its operational costs, high-speed trains need a constituency of between 6.5 million and eight million passengers a year; none of Spain's routes come close.
Spain's planners seem to have forgotten that the country has closed high-speed routes for these reasons - the Toledo-Cuenca line was used by just a few dozen passengers most of the time. There are days when nobody boards the AVE at Guadalajara or Tardienta in Huesca. Tardienta has a population of just 1,000 people, but yet it has a high-speed train station. Is this the model that will connect up Spain and make it prosperous?
http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/01/15/inenglish/1358253198_135607.html
Boondoggles like this are part of the reason that Spain is near economic collapse.
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This Future Map Of The United States Is Way Cooler Than Any Current Map Of The United States [View all]
Mira
Feb 2013
OP
The general population is aging, has money and time to make this a huge bonanza for the country!
kelliekat44
Feb 2013
#68
Another rail petition I stumbled on searching for passwords & such........
kooljerk666
Feb 2013
#150
I believe it. I'm a bit of a public transportation nut, however. I'm constantly proselytizing
Ed Suspicious
Feb 2013
#8
There are some Roman Catholic nuns at the one I saw. It looks like a college campus.
CTyankee
Feb 2013
#97
Travel at 220 mph is only possible on roadbeds designed for high-speed passenger service
FarCenter
Feb 2013
#9
By definition, we have never built the impossible -- but we have built the uneconomic
FarCenter
Feb 2013
#45
You make good points so hope this isnt seen as an argument but at one time rural electrification was
libtodeath
Feb 2013
#118
Correct, passenger only roadbeds reduce the end-to-end crush resistance requirements
FarCenter
Feb 2013
#48
Actually, depending on the specific speed restriction Freight travels closer to 70. Amtrak at 80.
Gore1FL
Feb 2013
#75
70 mph would be for container and refrigerated freight trains on the best quality track.
FarCenter
Feb 2013
#86
I'm a railroad buff, and I'm not quite as certain about the 'pipe dream' aspect
ColesCountyDem
Feb 2013
#144
When on long road trips I have often envisioned both renewable energy infrastructure
ChisolmTrailDem
Feb 2013
#175
The more practical route across the south would be from Atlanta to Dallas along I-20
FarCenter
Feb 2013
#165
Things we gained as a nation with the CCC works program were a pipe dream too.
ChisolmTrailDem
Feb 2013
#174
Our stupid governor (worst ever) vetoed high speed rail after the citizens voted for it...
Sancho
Feb 2013
#10
We in California Thank Your Stupid Governor for the Extra High Speed Rail Funds
AndyTiedye
Feb 2013
#51
Thank goodness President Eisenhower didn't feel this way. Just sayin'.....
snappyturtle
Feb 2013
#31
Air travel is oil intensive, and for trips of less than 600 miles, rail is more economical
Lydia Leftcoast
Feb 2013
#38
Belin to Seville is about 1400 miles, while Boston to Dallas is 1570 -- And Spain is uneconomic
FarCenter
Feb 2013
#56
Port Arthur to El Paso is 833 miles -- mostly nothing between San Antonio and El Paso.
FarCenter
Feb 2013
#88
Detroit's new light rail system could be expanded to the high speed rail station
Motown_Johnny
Feb 2013
#173
I would take my whole family and they would most likely have fun...America is beutiful
uponit7771
Feb 2013
#140
That's the problem, the "deciders" always opt for the plan that dooms the idea.
Egalitarian Thug
Feb 2013
#64
The Interstate system right of ways have curves too sharp and grades too steep
FarCenter
Feb 2013
#116
That loop through the UP of Michigan and down through northern lower Michigan
amandabeech
Feb 2013
#171
a rail bridge wouldn't be that big a deal, and it would be a boom for tourism
Motown_Johnny
Feb 2013
#172
It would be great for UP tourism, although it is so beautiful in northern lower Michigan
amandabeech
Feb 2013
#178
one or two rail lines would not really impact that expanse of wilderness
Motown_Johnny
Feb 2013
#180
What I wanted to say was that the area is so beautiful that passengers might want the
amandabeech
Feb 2013
#182
Okay - as a professional transportation planner, let me say this map is misleading.
brooklynite
Feb 2013
#67
Regional high speed rail MIGHT be possible but it'll never replace cross country transportation...
cbdo2007
Feb 2013
#73
How much would it cost? A LOT less than the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars, and
Lydia Leftcoast
Feb 2013
#112
"It can become a reality though, if you sign the official White House petition."
NoPasaran
Feb 2013
#123
With the House still in a Republican majority, forget about it. We'd better get that ..
YOHABLO
Feb 2013
#141
I agree that the idea is both wonderful and essential, but I dislike the routing
1-Old-Man
Feb 2013
#155
That we don't already have this, speaks volumes to the power of the oil & auto industries.
CrispyQ
Feb 2013
#159
Anyone who complains that this is not possible or impractical, forfeits the right to ever complain..
Yavin4
Feb 2013
#168
There will never be rail fast enough for most of those routes to make sense.
Sen. Walter Sobchak
Feb 2013
#184