General Discussion

Xithras

(16,191 posts)

45. We are not machines. And it's not vigilantism.

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 01:28 PM

Feb 2013

Hunting someone down a week, a day, or even an hour later would be vigilantism. But reacting violently in defense of your offspring, or in grief at the moment of their death, is a programmed biological instinct shared by every mammal on this planet. Kill a baby elephant while its mother is watching, and see what she does to you. That same core programming is shared by every human, lion, dog, bear, and giraffe on this planet.

You cannot punish someone for having a basic biological response to a horrific situation like this. His acute stress response had kicked in, he was in shock, and that core programming that says "this predator just killed my babies" went active. What he did, and what nearly any of us would do, was entirely understandable.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

303 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Father indicted:-Moments after his 2 sons were killed by the driver, the drunk was fatally shot [View all] The Straight Story Feb 2013 OP

Justifiable homicide? Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #1

Walks 150 yards each way to retrieve a gun to shoot an unconscious man? Robb Feb 2013 #2

Temporary insanity pediatricmedic Feb 2013 #8

Ditto. He lost it. Understandable. If I were on the jury....not guilty. nt Honeycombe8 Feb 2013 #166

Agree, My Opinion, Not Guilty Katashi_itto Feb 2013 #298

states have vehicular homicide statutes for this Katashi_itto Feb 2013 #260

No - it was not in self-defense ann--- Feb 2013 #82

Yes: The drunk killed by accident, the father murdered by intent. panzerfaust Feb 2013 #94

You are absolutely correct! defacto7 Feb 2013 #188

driving drunk is NOT AN ACCIDENT. pansypoo53219 Feb 2013 #204

BINGO!!! theHandpuppet Feb 2013 #274

Diminished capacity is a valid defense strategy Trajan Feb 2013 #102

Interesting that it is a truism that one never knows what a jury will decide - panzerfaust Feb 2013 #109

Really? sendero Feb 2013 #120

"The man who killed his kids did so by an accident." No, the man who killed his kids Ghost in the Machine Feb 2013 #123

Very sad to ann--- Feb 2013 #128

Do you have kids of your own?? Ghost in the Machine Feb 2013 #131

No, I don't have sympathy ann--- Feb 2013 #133

I agree with you... defacto7 Feb 2013 #190

"Only in UNCIVILIZED countries does the victim's family AVENGE the death of another. Did you forget Ghost in the Machine Feb 2013 #191

Yep. cliffordu Feb 2013 #200

Good for you. AnotherMcIntosh Feb 2013 #226

No wonder ann--- Feb 2013 #228

oh please! orleans Feb 2013 #246

+1 n/t Helen Reddy Feb 2013 #284

Did the shooter know MichaelHarris Feb 2013 #211

Good thing the driver wasn't diabetic. Hassin Bin Sober Feb 2013 #231

He wasn't protecting his children, he was seeking revenge and that is a crime sabrina 1 Feb 2013 #266

Tell us all about your expertise with posts on DU. cliffordu Feb 2013 #135

And, yet another ann--- Feb 2013 #141

Yes. How very very sad. cliffordu Feb 2013 #146

No, I think the ann--- Feb 2013 #229

Well, gosh. cliffordu Feb 2013 #230

Disgusting. white_wolf Feb 2013 #160

Bzzt. Nice try. cliffordu Feb 2013 #172

It doesn't matter. As has been pointed out before the guy could have had a medical condition. white_wolf Feb 2013 #176

LOL. cliffordu Feb 2013 #179

Then you and hopefully this guy would be charged with manslaughter. white_wolf Feb 2013 #181

Well. Yep you are completely right cliffordu Feb 2013 #182

and how many years have you spent in prison? defacto7 Feb 2013 #192

I did 18 months before I was 16 cliffordu Feb 2013 #198

Nothing? defacto7 Feb 2013 #201

No. You really don't. cliffordu Feb 2013 #202

OK defacto7 Feb 2013 #207

One was still alive. Hassin Bin Sober Feb 2013 #234

Well, fuck. That changes everything. cliffordu Feb 2013 #235

Who leaves their injured/dying kid to get a gun? You? Hassin Bin Sober Feb 2013 #238

Was there enough life in the kid to actually TELL he was alive cliffordu Feb 2013 #239

Did the father (or you) have a medical degree and/or an EEG machine. Hassin Bin Sober Feb 2013 #242

LOL. cliffordu Feb 2013 #243

Perceived wrongs??? What is there to "perceive" about a doucherocket getting plastered Ghost in the Machine Feb 2013 #203

It's the principal of the matter. white_wolf Feb 2013 #205

The next time you are standing over the bodies of your dead children cliffordu Feb 2013 #233

Not really krispos42 Feb 2013 #157

Yes. A murder was murdered. DDs are murderers.nt Drahthaardogs Feb 2013 #145

This is true. defacto7 Feb 2013 #194

And he should have been held to that ann--- Feb 2013 #232

Really, control your anger...Serioulsy? Drahthaardogs Feb 2013 #257

I feel the same way! Debbie357 Feb 2013 #152

If the driver had lived, he would've done a long prison stretch for homicide. nt Honeycombe8 Feb 2013 #167

Maybe. cliffordu Feb 2013 #173

I really think that's a given, clifford. Drunk driving and killing people. That's a 1-2.... Honeycombe8 Feb 2013 #175

In some states. cliffordu Feb 2013 #177

That's where the justice system comes into play ann--- Feb 2013 #236

he's not a murderer CreekDog Feb 2013 #256

p.s. ann--- Feb 2013 #247

Where was Buddha, God, Allah or whatever make believe sky fairy you worship Ghost in the Machine Feb 2013 #255

That was a totally unnecessary attack post. nt Union Scribe Feb 2013 #265

You do realize that no one worships Buddha, right? white_wolf Feb 2013 #271

"You do realize that no one worships Buddha, right?" To which Buddha do you refer? Ghost in the Machine Feb 2013 #275

The person was quoting the historical Buddha. white_wolf Feb 2013 #289

I never said that the poster said any of those things, I just told them NOT to say them to me Ghost in the Machine Feb 2013 #290

If you didn't imply the poster made those arguments then what was the point in your post? white_wolf Feb 2013 #291

Grief and rage don't justify killing someone Hippo_Tron Feb 2013 #180

More likely a crime of passion AgingAmerican Feb 2013 #210

Give him 30 minutes in jail and take away his gun. Aristus Feb 2013 #3

Wow, love your twisted logic! Nt Logical Feb 2013 #15

I don't think there is anything the court can do to him Ilsa Feb 2013 #137

Neither do I. cliffordu Feb 2013 #148

How about his family, are they feeling pain? Marrah_G Feb 2013 #249

I believe that the father has as much guilt in this incident as the drunk driver. He allowed his ladjf Feb 2013 #4

Read the article. They were pushing the car back to the house. yardwork Feb 2013 #5

I read the article. 150 yards is a long, hard task that would require at least ten to fifteen ladjf Feb 2013 #6

I'm sure that the lights were on. The driver would have needed them to see. yardwork Feb 2013 #7

really? was it uphill? downhill? steady grade? snooper2 Feb 2013 #12

Yes. Things go down a bit differenty in rural America. I have spent more time than I would like Ed Suspicious Feb 2013 #54

seriously? As much to blame? cali Feb 2013 #10

Yes. I was serious. It hurt me to realize that the sons died unnecessarily. The drunken driver ladjf Feb 2013 #23

What. The. Fuck? OriginalGeek Feb 2013 #25

That's true. But, had the father shown a reasonable level of prudence, the boys would not been ladjf Feb 2013 #27

I don't think he was doing anything illegal OriginalGeek Feb 2013 #29

DUI illegal, dumb, dangerous and wrong. I am not defending the drunk's role in this tragedy. ladjf Feb 2013 #33

There is a lot if this in south Texas, where there is pleny of poverty, Ilsa Feb 2013 #143

leaving a vehicle in the road may be illegal TorchTheWitch Feb 2013 #273

Good post! You summarized the entire event in a thoughtful way. nt ladjf Feb 2013 #285

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA cliffordu Feb 2013 #150

Still possible that other people's negligence is involved treestar Feb 2013 #99

Just like that damn women wearing her skimpy outfit and drinking joeglow3 Feb 2013 #39

codswallop and ugly, heartless, blaming the victim shit. cali Feb 2013 #46

^^ this! ^^ LiberalAndProud Feb 2013 #134

Blame the victims. Well done. Bake Feb 2013 #47

I presumed that everyone understood that the drunken driver was guilty. But, no one seemed ladjf Feb 2013 #57

And I can't speak for the others OriginalGeek Feb 2013 #106

Running out of gas is the result of money problems in most cases Gormy Cuss Feb 2013 #59

Your ability to parse this is absolutely astounding. cliffordu Feb 2013 #149

Welcome to Vigilante Underground. hay rick Feb 2013 #156

There is nothing wrong defacto7 Feb 2013 #196

The father was clearly in the wrong. Lizzie Poppet Feb 2013 #248

You're putting far too much blame on the father. n/t. OceanEcosystem Feb 2013 #263

In terms of degrees of blame, you may well be correct. However, I was trying to point ladjf Feb 2013 #286

He is responsible for shooting the drunk KurtNYC Feb 2013 #14

What is truly disgusting is that the father didn't tell the boys to get the hell off the road as ladjf Feb 2013 #28

Yeah, that other driver being a dead-drunk asshole had nothing to do with it. Ikonoklast Feb 2013 #43

I blame both the drunken driver and the father for endangering innocent people. ladjf Feb 2013 #51

And the father could have had the kids stand on the side of the road, and the drunk driver STILL Ikonoklast Feb 2013 #56

You're omitting an important fact Orrex Feb 2013 #122

your posts in this thread are truly and deeply disgusting. vile. cali Feb 2013 #48

To you my posts are "disgusting and vile" but if one parent who read this thread was prompted ladjf Feb 2013 #55

I agree with you opinion on safe behavior. John1956PA Feb 2013 #67

Thanks. As you might have noticed, I've been severely been "flamed" as a result of my post. ladjf Feb 2013 #69

Thank you for sticking to reason, in the face of insult. panzerfaust Feb 2013 #101

I'm astounded and saddened by you. cliffordu Feb 2013 #185

You sound like you were on the scene. cliffordu Feb 2013 #184

as much guilt? CBGLuthier Feb 2013 #19

I agree with you. timdog44 Feb 2013 #38

Too bad the father of those kids didn't have half the defacto7 Feb 2013 #197

We also don't know the speed of the drunk driver magical thyme Feb 2013 #42

"What was the reason the truck ran out of gas?" WTF does THAT have to do with ANYTHING? cleanhippie Feb 2013 #151

He at least contributed. alphafemale Feb 2013 #302

Or, had the driver survived the crash and had not been shot, he might have had grounds to sue ladjf Feb 2013 #303

I would be surprised if a concealed carry person didn't react this way fried eggs Feb 2013 #9

Jury nullification Xithras Feb 2013 #11

While being for gun control as the mother of 5 rbrnmw Feb 2013 #24

I think I'd do the same thing if my head Ilsa Feb 2013 #140

Yep. nt stevenleser Feb 2013 #158

Jury nullification. I can see that happening. ManiacJoe Feb 2013 #269

I Expect I Would Vote To Acquit, Sir... The Magistrate Feb 2013 #13

Same here. I dont think any jury convicts him. nt stevenleser Feb 2013 #159

LOL, I love how vigilante justice is ok on the DU, so GOP oF us. Stupid! n-t Logical Feb 2013 #16

It's really been creeping me out. Hell Hath No Fury Feb 2013 #20

Not a rightward lurch. Compassion and understanding of extreme anguish of the moment. GreenStormCloud Feb 2013 #31

So that's what they're calling it now. Hell Hath No Fury Feb 2013 #40

How would you feel if you had just watched someone kill your children? GreenStormCloud Feb 2013 #44

There was just another case last year Xithras Feb 2013 #52

totally different cases dsc Feb 2013 #72

It's a matter of time, not distance. Xithras Feb 2013 #74

It is still legally a vastly different case dsc Feb 2013 #75

I'm not talking about the law. Xithras Feb 2013 #81

So you would be OK with the brother, or father, of the murdered panzerfaust Feb 2013 #105

you are describing an accident, in the other case we are talking about a guy raping a little child JI7 Feb 2013 #169

John Gotti "disappeared" the guy who ran over his kid by accident. Hassin Bin Sober Feb 2013 #237

a) both his kids were not dead TorchTheWitch Feb 2013 #292

You obviously don't have children. Bake Feb 2013 #50

I have children, and I can't forsee myself ever going vigliante. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2013 #97

Same here. defacto7 Feb 2013 #199

The person without compassion was the drunk driver. Travis_0004 Feb 2013 #112

US states still accept a provocation defense or something like it. dairydog91 Feb 2013 #35

We are not machines. And it's not vigilantism. Xithras Feb 2013 #45

Exactly. Very well explained. GreenStormCloud Feb 2013 #58

I'm with you on this! ann--- Feb 2013 #83

Since he did it immediately after the event CBGLuthier Feb 2013 #17

I am very torn over this story Marrah_G Feb 2013 #18

I'm in the same boat. HappyMe Feb 2013 #22

He may not care Tien1985 Feb 2013 #277

Unimaginable grief combined with rage Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #21

+1 n/t X_Digger Feb 2013 #62

. patrice Feb 2013 #26

People shouldn't be carrying around guns gollygee Feb 2013 #30

He was not carrying a gun with him. GreenStormCloud Feb 2013 #32

How do you screen for stuff like this? gollygee Feb 2013 #37

He was waaay beyond "angry". GreenStormCloud Feb 2013 #49

There really is no way to screen for this. surrealAmerican Feb 2013 #70

Yeah, Really RobinA Feb 2013 #36

would you feel differently about it RedstDem Feb 2013 #63

This has been said so many times here at DU gollygee Feb 2013 #68

THIS! get the red out Feb 2013 #79

agreed RedstDem Feb 2013 #117

In this specific situation, that wouldn't be true though NickB79 Feb 2013 #142

The law actually does say this might be OK. sir pball Feb 2013 #129

Wow.... defacto7 Feb 2013 #208

So if he didn't have a gun, he probably wouldn't be in jail. liberalmuse Feb 2013 #34

You think he was going to stand around and let the drunk sleep it off peacefully? dairydog91 Feb 2013 #41

My emotions might have turned to rage as soon as I saw that the car driver was drunk. John1956PA Feb 2013 #60

if that drunk driver wasnt drunk RedstDem Feb 2013 #64

How about half your family? Robb Feb 2013 #71

I'm not saying it would be a well thought out plan RedstDem Feb 2013 #115

and it happens every day, all over the world. defacto7 Feb 2013 #206

You think lack of a gun would have stopped him? GreenStormCloud Feb 2013 #53

Then why did he go back for his gun? Politicalboi Feb 2013 #96

No, if he didn't have a gun sir pball Feb 2013 #130

I'm probably a piece of crap for saying this Victor_c3 Feb 2013 #61

Well get the red out Feb 2013 #77

And should go to jail! n-t Logical Feb 2013 #171

I do not condone him killing the drunk driver who killed his sons bluestateguy Feb 2013 #65

He'll get no sympathy from me. How did he know that the driver was drunk? kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #66

Kestral -- Hell Hath No Fury Feb 2013 #87

That hangman's knot is tied incorrectly. GreenStormCloud Feb 2013 #293

Great point!!! Cali_Democrat Feb 2013 #91

Absolutely! panzerfaust Feb 2013 #108

We veterinarians are awesome, right?? kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #110

Seriously this is crazy. white_wolf Feb 2013 #161

hear, hear! defacto7 Feb 2013 #209

Yep. How many cops have beaten the shit out of "drunks" only to find out.... Hassin Bin Sober Feb 2013 #245

I had those same thoughts Marrah_G Feb 2013 #250

Its Texas, Go Vols Feb 2013 #73

High poverty area. People can identify with having Ilsa Feb 2013 #144

yep Go Vols Feb 2013 #186

It's sad get the red out Feb 2013 #76

Were there any other children in ann--- Feb 2013 #85

I doubt they would see him as a murderer get the red out Feb 2013 #88

Vigilante justice cannot be tolerated ann--- Feb 2013 #78

I wish I were a good enough person get the red out Feb 2013 #89

classic "crime of passion", he'll get acquittal. unblock Feb 2013 #80

That is not grounds for acquittal Jersey Devil Feb 2013 #86

"...grand jurors rejected a "crime of passion" defense..." panzerfaust Feb 2013 #111

the standards and information presented to a grand jury are different from an actual trial. unblock Feb 2013 #113

I'm sorry, I can never get behind vigilante justice, no matter what the situation. Tommy_Carcetti Feb 2013 #84

Grief can lead a person do extreme things. aikoaiko Feb 2013 #90

One out of twelve is all it takes to get a hung jury or a not guilty verdict FarCenter Feb 2013 #92

My Thought as Well Macoy51 Feb 2013 #297

Amazing how many people on a progressive website condone one guy being judge, jury and executioner. Nye Bevan Feb 2013 #93

he didnt murder the driver because he was drunk. RedstDem Feb 2013 #116

It doesn't matter why he did it. He still took the law into his own hands. white_wolf Feb 2013 #162

the mental state of the accused does matter JI7 Feb 2013 #164

Yeah it does and he will probably be charged with manslaughter. white_wolf Feb 2013 #170

i think what may hurt him is he did not admit to having shot the guy JI7 Feb 2013 #174

The fact that he had to walk to his house get the gun may damn this guy in the end. white_wolf Feb 2013 #178

I'd never vote guilty if I were on that jury. MrSlayer Feb 2013 #95

How did the father know the guy was drunk? Cali_Democrat Feb 2013 #100

It's fairly easy to determine if someone is drunk. MrSlayer Feb 2013 #104

We have laws for a reason Cali_Democrat Feb 2013 #107

And you should never be on a jury! n-t Logical Feb 2013 #168

Why? I'd be fair. MrSlayer Feb 2013 #187

That isn't the law. white_wolf Feb 2013 #258

Jury nullification exists for a reason. MrSlayer Feb 2013 #261

Those kids should not have been pushing the truck treestar Feb 2013 #98

He will be convicted of manslaughter Trajan Feb 2013 #103

Only thing I'm questioning is why he left to get a gun? Left2Tackle Feb 2013 #114

Good, vigilante justice should never be condoned. n/t MadHound Feb 2013 #118

Except when people decide that the vigilante murderer had a really good reason Orrex Feb 2013 #119

That subject line is disingenuous Orrex Feb 2013 #121

This message was self-deleted by its author The Straight Story Feb 2013 #124

The subject line is the original with the underwritten (self deleted other post The Straight Story Feb 2013 #125

Ah! Orrex Feb 2013 #127

If a clearly drunk man killed my two sons in front of me galileoreloaded Feb 2013 #126

Yep. EastKYLiberal Feb 2013 #139

How valiant. defacto7 Feb 2013 #212

Thank you get the red out Feb 2013 #227

And that is why we have gang wars Marrah_G Feb 2013 #251

Got kids? galileoreloaded Feb 2013 #262

Yup- I have 3 Marrah_G Feb 2013 #276

This is different from the man who killed the guy raping his daughter. joshcryer Feb 2013 #132

The father in the rape case didn't mean to kill jsr Feb 2013 #153

wow, this case sucks in so many ways, drinking and driving and guns JI7 Feb 2013 #136

Glad he got justice before the system let the drunk off easily on a plea bargain. nt EastKYLiberal Feb 2013 #138

Diminished capacity--not a single jury on the planet will convict him of murder. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #147

He was not carrying a gun. GreenStormCloud Feb 2013 #154

Which is why I would vote "Guilty" for murder obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #282

I would vote for a lesser charge, due to diminished capacity. N/T GreenStormCloud Feb 2013 #295

Sad. I don't like what the father did, but I don't blame him either. nt ZombieHorde Feb 2013 #155

i think this Guy not admitting to having shot the Guy might hurt his case JI7 Feb 2013 #163

No jury in their right mind will convict him. lonestarnot Feb 2013 #165

My verdict: Not guilty Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #183

Then I hope no one like you is on the jury. white_wolf Feb 2013 #189

I imagine the prosecution feels the same way you do Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #193

Justice would have been to call the police and had the drunk driver charged with manslaughter. white_wolf Feb 2013 #195

It's the open can of worms defacto7 Feb 2013 #213

I hear you, but it's not like this guy is hunting the streets taking out the "trash" Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #217

You were going to beat someone to death for ruining your daughter's dress? white_wolf Feb 2013 #264

You will get no argument from me on that score Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #267

You know what? You're right about something. white_wolf Feb 2013 #268

No biggie my friend, I wasn't worried either way Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #270

I don't expect you to agree with me Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #214

Where did you get that I think we should not have trials white_wolf Feb 2013 #253

In my opinion, this is justified homicide.. Captain Stern Feb 2013 #215

Seems many confuse justice with vengeance.. RedCappedBandit Feb 2013 #216

and seem to confuse valiance with having courage. defacto7 Feb 2013 #218

Justice? Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #219

Do I want to sit in judgement of this dad? RedCappedBandit Feb 2013 #220

I hear you, I am glad I am not on this jury n/t Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #221

I agree with you obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #281

the drunk Niceguy1 Feb 2013 #222

Decide on Justice, Not Law Macoy51 Feb 2013 #223

"The jury’s job is not to decide the law, but to decide on justice." white_wolf Feb 2013 #259

Sorry, I Disagree Macoy51 Feb 2013 #296

The jury's job is to decide the law, period obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #280

Note the exemplary use of the passive voice in that headline JVS Feb 2013 #224

Where is the line drawn? mikeytherat Feb 2013 #225

I keep a gun in my car for such situations. Hassin Bin Sober Feb 2013 #241

Anyone else remember the ending to "Witness For the Prosecution"? WinkyDink Feb 2013 #240

It's easy to see that they're both murderers... Iggo Feb 2013 #244

+1 JVS Feb 2013 #254

How sad for everyone Bettie Feb 2013 #252

Can't believe they got an indictment helveticas Feb 2013 #272

He deserves to be indicted and go to prison obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #279

Have you never been enraged? helveticas Feb 2013 #283

So rage is, in your view, is sufficient justification to commit murder Orrex Feb 2013 #294

After having read the article, a few things Lars39 Feb 2013 #278

Good luck finding a jury to convict him. TheManInTheMac Feb 2013 #287

If we banned alcohol, cars, and guns madville Feb 2013 #288

It's extremely dangerous for society to justify murder. I certainly hope he is convicted but on a Douglas Carpenter Feb 2013 #299

It looks like one of his sons was still alive when he took the time to get his gun and shoot the WhollyHeretic Feb 2013 #300

All DUers should recognize that DIMINISHED CAPACITY IS A LEGAL DEFENSE, instead of instead of AnotherMcIntosh Feb 2013 #301