General Discussion

Sekhmets Daughter

(7,515 posts)

133. We disagree on

Wed Feb 13, 2013, 04:20 PM

Feb 2013

the use of deadly force being appropriate. We don't yet know if he was firing on LE from the cabin. Besides, I have no problem with the police simply resorting to old siege warfare tactics. The cabin was surrounded, he wasn't going to escape...starve him out or let him shoot himself. Had he come out firing, deadly force would have been appropriate, but I have a problem with the bullying tactics of our police, our military and our government. We have more weapons, more bombs, more drones and we are happy to use them. I have a real problem with the LAPD opening fire on two women who were merely delivering newspapers.

Was he a threat? Well, he had been but I don't know what real threat he presented trapped in a cabin and we'll never know what might have come out in a trial will we? IMHO there was never any intention of taking him alive and that doesn't speak well of our LE or our own national morality.

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Torching the cabin was wrong. [View all] cali Feb 2013 OP

I'd say anyone who's killed multiple sharp_stick Feb 2013 #1

They had acheived containment, but had no patience. HereSince1628 Feb 2013 #14

why would they have patience? for what reason? patience? really? robinlynne Feb 2013 #136

who needs the rule of law? it's so archaic.. frylock Feb 2013 #177

No. I dont mean that. But we all suspected he would not be arrested alive. robinlynne Feb 2013 #183

You're right. Light House Feb 2013 #192

And law enforcement made it perfectly clear with their first ambush on a citizen notadmblnd Feb 2013 #235

Dorner could have, during his week while on the run, Light House Feb 2013 #239

C'mon, they're all members of the same damn club notadmblnd Feb 2013 #244

Oh really? Light House Feb 2013 #248

he never would have made it to any police station notadmblnd Feb 2013 #250

What do you mean he wouldn't have made it to any police station? Light House Feb 2013 #253

I think you give him too much credit notadmblnd Feb 2013 #254

You may very well be right about the police never allowing him to surrender, Light House Feb 2013 #255

In the interest of the concept of minimal damage if nothing else HereSince1628 Feb 2013 #210

Exactly - they could have waited him out. backscatter712 Feb 2013 #41

This guy wasn't going to surrender sharp_stick Feb 2013 #73

He would have surrendered, or killed himself eventually. bvar22 Feb 2013 #135

He was trapped in the cabin, and they had control over his water supply. jeff47 Feb 2013 #226

You do know that the word burner Light House Feb 2013 #148

There are different types of teargas cannisters. backscatter712 Feb 2013 #173

You are exactly right. Light House Feb 2013 #176

I don't think it was the LAPD that lobbed the teargas in. randome Feb 2013 #182

If it wasn't LAPD, who was it? backscatter712 Feb 2013 #186

The area is not in Los Angeles, or La County. It is east of LA. another city. in another county. robinlynne Feb 2013 #188

'Burners' is another term for 'incendiary teargas canisters'. randome Feb 2013 #193

I know that. backscatter712 Feb 2013 #197

Oh, I thought they were making room for these folks to come in.... jberryhill Feb 2013 #203

what is the story behind this photo? robinlynne Feb 2013 #207

Behind that photo is the other side of your monitor screen jberryhill Feb 2013 #208

ahh. burning man. I did not get the reference. robinlynne Feb 2013 #209

San Bernardino County Sheriffs Dept., Light House Feb 2013 #195

Fair answer. n/t backscatter712 Feb 2013 #205

LAPD werent there. San Bernardino Sheriffs were there. robinlynne Feb 2013 #187

The police don't get to convict people for murder tinrobot Feb 2013 #238

He had multiple chances to surrender sharp_stick Feb 2013 #268

We don't know the cause of death tinrobot Feb 2013 #272

NO riverbendviewgal Feb 2013 #251

He was contained and he was imminent threat out in the middle of nowhere? LiberalFighter Feb 2013 #294

"My guess is Dorner was already dead when they fired off the teargas." jberryhill Feb 2013 #2

Not the short straw sharp_stick Feb 2013 #8

why not just hold off on drastic action? cali Feb 2013 #17

Until the dead guy comes out? jberryhill Feb 2013 #21

They'd already torn down the walls of the cabin cali Feb 2013 #27

Yeah, they don't have robots for stuff like that or anything. beevul Feb 2013 #128

Those are more limited than you apparently think jberryhill Feb 2013 #129

So, explain, how limited are they? beevul Feb 2013 #154

Shit, there was someone here the other day asking if Dorner deserved trial... Earth_First Feb 2013 #3

But...but...he's an EEEEVILDOER!!!!! Taverner Feb 2013 #57

I doubt too many people associated with those he murdered are going to lose sleep over this dlwickham Feb 2013 #123

He deserved atrial like anyone else treestar Feb 2013 #142

It's not clear that the authorities torched the cabin NV Whino Feb 2013 #4

Or indirectly started by the tear gas canister exploding. n/t FSogol Feb 2013 #15

I think they used some kind of incendiary device marions ghost Feb 2013 #45

Damn Skippy. nt MrScorpio Feb 2013 #59

We agree marions ghost Feb 2013 #178

There is video of them saying they were going to torch the cabin and burn the MF out. Mojorabbit Feb 2013 #67

We can't KNOW that! Even though they said they were going to, and then it happened. And there's Marr Feb 2013 #113

Or shot himself, then set the.... louis-t Feb 2013 #81

What do you mean it's not clear who torched the cabin? DrewFlorida Feb 2013 #278

Torching the cabin is one thing... liberalmuse Feb 2013 #5

They intentionally burned the cabin? Ohio Joe Feb 2013 #6

There are several threads from yesterday with video of them in the background Mojorabbit Feb 2013 #215

Are these the threads you meant? countryjake Feb 2013 #237

Here is a thread I just ran across Mojorabbit Feb 2013 #219

There are two or more links to the scanner traffic audio... countryjake Feb 2013 #233

Thank you for posting this. DrewFlorida Feb 2013 #279

I think the Dpm12 Feb 2013 #7

Reason? Yes. Legitimate? That's pushing the issue. immoderate Feb 2013 #36

Yeah, who cares about due process. nt Mnemosyne Feb 2013 #48

No, they didn't. They had a legitimate reason to tear gas the guy. kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #79

lemme guess. you're white middle class without a care in the world.. frylock Feb 2013 #184

I don't think there's any question they wanted to summarily execute him if given the opportunity Cali_Democrat Feb 2013 #9

That was a BIG mistake. Reno 911 comes to mind. marions ghost Feb 2013 #52

Well said cali. Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #10

+1000. Light House Feb 2013 #18

I don't even think it was the LAPD that made the decision, was it? randome Feb 2013 #19

Perhaps not...but you can be sure they influenced it. n/t Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #23

This was NOT LAPD!! longship Feb 2013 #90

And you think LAPD has no influence there? Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #92

Repeat. Not LAPD. nt longship Feb 2013 #94

Right. Light House Feb 2013 #102

Okay...so CA Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #117

The use of deadly force was appropriate. longship Feb 2013 #122

We disagree on Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #133

"We don't yet know if he was firing on LE from the cabin." longship Feb 2013 #149

They were shot before he got to this cabin, I believe.... Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #158

It's the rules of engagement of which Dorner was aware. longship Feb 2013 #180

All the more reason to not burn down the cabin... Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #194

It all comes down to the fact that Dorner Light House Feb 2013 #198

No apology necessary. longship Feb 2013 #200

"seems to think force is always the answer" jberryhill Feb 2013 #201

Oh, I think there are many who do... Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #212

Tell the 4 people whom the LAPD almost killed in the previous days about the rules of engagement. DrewFlorida Feb 2013 #282

The LAPD had nothing to do with Big Bear. longship Feb 2013 #296

You didn't fact check anything, you aren't even sure of your own opinion! DrewFlorida Feb 2013 #298

I would welcome your correction, if you have one. longship Feb 2013 #300

They ordered the helicopters to stand off specifically so they could ChisolmTrailDem Feb 2013 #11

You don't know that and no, I don't see the cops on the scene as being as bad as Dorner cali Feb 2013 #22

He had the opportunity to come out of the cabin too marions ghost Feb 2013 #65

I don't know if you knew this, but fire kills people Scootaloo Feb 2013 #96

Link to DUer saying that, please jberryhill Feb 2013 #104

Do you support the police setting the cabin on fire? Scootaloo Feb 2013 #106

I doubt they did that deliberately. randome Feb 2013 #109

As I said, I don't know if they did or not Scootaloo Feb 2013 #112

They burned the place AFTER they pulled the walls down? RC Feb 2013 #167

Right now, it appears it was the teargas that started the fire. randome Feb 2013 #168

I don't even support the death penalty jberryhill Feb 2013 #110

Anything involving a cop is "lawful" since the other option is the cops turning against the citizens Scootaloo Feb 2013 #116

I agree with you the fire should never have been oldbanjo Feb 2013 #157

Actually, Light House Feb 2013 #115

He was a cop. I think it was speaking his language. marions ghost Feb 2013 #120

He may have simply assumed they were redecorating jberryhill Feb 2013 #121

Or to make it easier for the pizza delivery guy! randome Feb 2013 #125

That and the aromatherapy jberryhill Feb 2013 #127

They had to tear big holes so they could get the burners in the cabin. oldbanjo Feb 2013 #162

'Burners' is another term for 'incendiary teargas canisters'. randome Feb 2013 #165

Yes it was tear gas. Light House Feb 2013 #171

Yes, that absolutely is what you're saying Scootaloo Feb 2013 #126

No way do I think that the police are always right marions ghost Feb 2013 #137

Didn't the tear gas cause the conflagration? With exploding ammo, etc? randome Feb 2013 #12

Well they did say burn it: The Straight Story Feb 2013 #20

Apparently 'burners' is also a term used for 'incendiary teargas cannisters'. randome Feb 2013 #37

You're right. Light House Feb 2013 #66

Why the need to use INCENDIARY teargas canisters? Are they available in a kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #86

As far as I know, Light House Feb 2013 #118

I don't know the answer to that one. randome Feb 2013 #119

Yes, there are "non-incendiary" tear gas canisters. jeff47 Feb 2013 #227

I don't have enough facts to make a determination one way or another. NCTraveler Feb 2013 #13

The question should be did they INTENTIONALLY torch the cabin or Lurks Often Feb 2013 #16

Here's the line, btw jberryhill Feb 2013 #25

Strawman Crepuscular Feb 2013 #28

The Constitution doesn't require "being shot at" jberryhill Feb 2013 #33

irrelevent Crepuscular Feb 2013 #46

"it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force" jberryhill Feb 2013 #51

So there should be no limitation? Crepuscular Feb 2013 #63

It would seem that it does require deadly force to be the last resort. beevul Feb 2013 #159

Or, you could look at the legal history of words like "necessary" jberryhill Feb 2013 #164

So much that just isn't reality in your post. beevul Feb 2013 #181

Oh it can't, can it? jberryhill Feb 2013 #204

That provides some needed perspective. Thanks. randome Feb 2013 #30

Ok, thanks n/t Lurks Often Feb 2013 #49

If that's the case they shouldn't have a problem admitting it. n/t 2pooped2pop Feb 2013 #71

The story was... Benton D Struckcheon Feb 2013 #34

I believe the cops deliberately torched it marions ghost Feb 2013 #76

+1 000 000 000 kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #88

Civilian Tear Gas Would Not Start A Fire DallasNE Feb 2013 #202

From the radio communication: They torched the place, tear gas canister starting the fire is bogus, arthritisR_US Feb 2013 #24

It's just your opinion that they purposely torched the place. Light House Feb 2013 #29

"Seven burners deployed and we have a fire." .... arthritisR_US Feb 2013 #35

See post #37 about the term 'burners'. randome Feb 2013 #39

You are right. Light House Feb 2013 #40

The term "burners" is slang for tear gas Light House Feb 2013 #72

Ya, I was just reading about that and it arthritisR_US Feb 2013 #131

This whole incident is tragic. Light House Feb 2013 #138

I couldn't agree more or have said it better! arthritisR_US Feb 2013 #141

I am going to venture a guess that any official report GObamaGO Feb 2013 #174

Given what we've seen before, Light House Feb 2013 #179

Anybody who knows anything about tear gas canisters ...... oldhippie Feb 2013 #42

According Crepuscular Feb 2013 #26

From things I've read this was not madmom Feb 2013 #31

A police operation like this should never be about "being entitled to react" cali Feb 2013 #38

"... specifically the LAPD..." madmom Feb 2013 #93

There could have been hostages in there... indie9197 Feb 2013 #32

No one had any of these moral or ethical issues about Dykes last week. Dreamer Tatum Feb 2013 #43

Or about "Kai the Hitchhiker" jberryhill Feb 2013 #54

I don't think he killed the dude, just batted him on the head a few times, no? randome Feb 2013 #61

2:47 "So, he's dead. Good." jberryhill Feb 2013 #98

He didn't kill him, he whacked him in the head DURING AN ATTACK ON A WOMAN. kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #91

So Kai is a liar now? jberryhill Feb 2013 #101

I'm not going to watch a video at work but I did not know that. randome Feb 2013 #114

As every knows, when beating someone on the head with a hatchet... jberryhill Feb 2013 #124

I don't know that I would take his comment as proof that the guy is dead. kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #196

But here you have Kai... jberryhill Feb 2013 #199

I doubt that LAPD had much to do with the final phase FarCenter Feb 2013 #44

How in the world can you claim he didn't pose a threat? LisaL Feb 2013 #47

He was contained. cali Feb 2013 #53

...and trained in escape and evasion jberryhill Feb 2013 #55

really? he was going to escape from a heavily surrounded cabin with no wall? Please cali Feb 2013 #69

At night, in the woods. Stranger things happen every minute. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #80

If only our police had some sort of "night-vision" equipment. (nt) jeff47 Feb 2013 #232

Which doesn't see through smoke. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #234

Well, perhaps then the police shouldn't have set a fire. jeff47 Feb 2013 #240

Fire fighting equipment was on hand in case it spread. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #241

That's right. Light House Feb 2013 #243

Some people just can't stand the thought of the state using violence against anyone geek tragedy Feb 2013 #245

So let him shoot himself. jeff47 Feb 2013 #247

Well, except the danger wasn't going to go away and it would in fact get more dangerous at night geek tragedy Feb 2013 #249

There's plenty of people claiming they won't be taken alive jeff47 Feb 2013 #252

How many people has Ted Nugent killed when they tried to arrest him? geek tragedy Feb 2013 #256

And? He still presumably had guns. LisaL Feb 2013 #56

How would anyone 'contain' him? randome Feb 2013 #58

you do know the police often use floodlights, right? And the cabin walls had been torn down cali Feb 2013 #74

Floodlights work a lot better on city blocks than in the woods. nt geek tragedy Feb 2013 #82

Says you safely behind your computer. LisaL Feb 2013 #83

Supposedly with a .50 caliber sniper rifle... Coyote_Tan Feb 2013 #68

cali. Dorner had a .50-caliber sniper rifle NNN0LHI Feb 2013 #100

I agree with you and I think you are brave to say it. Not afraid to be called a murder "apologist". rhett o rick Feb 2013 #50

There was a lot of murder happening yesterday. Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #64

"Wrong" is so relative. Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #60

WAIT MFM008 Feb 2013 #62

Finding the driver's license is weird. Lex Feb 2013 #70

If the DL was in a wallet, as it seems to be the case, Light House Feb 2013 #75

I want that kind of wallet! nt Lex Feb 2013 #99

If the wallet was closed, and I'm just guessing that it was, Light House Feb 2013 #107

Torching it was indeed wrong. We are a nation of laws and our law ENFORCEMENT people are bound by kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #77

How is this not law? jberryhill Feb 2013 #103

Yep. Use of deadly force sounds perfectly legal to me. LisaL Feb 2013 #111

Has anyone established that ... beevul Feb 2013 #152

Read the rest of the thread, please. randome Feb 2013 #156

It doesn't matter what he "was". beevul Feb 2013 #161

I don't get you. randome Feb 2013 #163

"Pause". beevul Feb 2013 #172

They went overboard on the use of incendiary tear gas, but under geek tragedy Feb 2013 #78

What the heck did this guy know? midnight Feb 2013 #84

Maybe that we never actually sent men to the Moon. JoePhilly Feb 2013 #87

If they intentionally torched the cabin get the red out Feb 2013 #85

Dunno marions ghost Feb 2013 #105

They send it tear gas. LisaL Feb 2013 #108

cabin walls being torn down? IcyPeas Feb 2013 #89

I don't think that makes any sense either. LisaL Feb 2013 #97

They were using an armored vehicle. Light House Feb 2013 #155

k/r PM Martin Feb 2013 #95

they were going to kill him instead of capture him RILib Feb 2013 #130

That story does not mesh with the video tapes. (one single bullet, walls coming down, etc.) robinlynne Feb 2013 #132

We are a nation of laws w/explicit rights to juries & prohibitions against cruel&unusual punishments DRoseDARs Feb 2013 #134

What America are you living in? marions ghost Feb 2013 #140

Once you surrender treestar Feb 2013 #144

Inane non sequitur is inane. You are awarded no points. nt DRoseDARs Feb 2013 #146

You had the non sequitur treestar Feb 2013 #206

Except you're leaving out the part were they never had any intention to take him alive. DRoseDARs Feb 2013 #214

Only they know what was in their minds treestar Feb 2013 #273

Yes, Light House Feb 2013 #190

Our rights don't work they way you think they do. DRoseDARs Feb 2013 #216

You have me confused with someone else. Light House Feb 2013 #218

I dont think this was ever going to be a turn the other cheek situation. he shot police family. robinlynne Feb 2013 #139

I didn't get a chance to respond to you in the thread that was locked, but.... OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #225

interesting. robinlynne Feb 2013 #229

Did you see any of the CBS video? Historic NY Feb 2013 #143

Oh-Oh, Cali. NOW you have done it! bvar22 Feb 2013 #145

This mess has really brought out the blood-thirsty, hasn't it? nt DRoseDARs Feb 2013 #151

If you'll read the rest of this thread, you'll see that it's not a black & white issue for most. randome Feb 2013 #153

Where are all these blood-lusting mobs of death-mongers I keep hearing about? great white snark Feb 2013 #170

I would always have preferred Dorner to be taken alive. randome Feb 2013 #175

The mob will now swarm after her. It's wild to watch. myrna minx Feb 2013 #169

not even close, this post is different from the others which are rightly being criticized as JI7 Feb 2013 #191

What we had there was a failure to communicate... countryjake Feb 2013 #147

I would have liked to have this guy in custody myself.... Spitfire of ATJ Feb 2013 #150

If Dorner was in there armed austinlw Feb 2013 #160

The cops did not want to have to deal with this man after dark.. I don't blame them.... secondwind Feb 2013 #166

It is their job to deal with dangerous people and situations . . . markpkessinger Feb 2013 #220

So the police torched it? rightsideout Feb 2013 #185

This Reminded Me Of Police Torching The Symbionese Liberation Army Safehouse DallasNE Feb 2013 #189

Don't forget THIS one: bvar22 Feb 2013 #213

At this point, are they even sure what caused the fire? lynne Feb 2013 #211

On radio scanners, the police talked about deploying "burners" which are separate... DRoseDARs Feb 2013 #217

They are not separate from tear gas. Light House Feb 2013 #223

I can't find any reference outside of this event showing "burner" to be slang for teargas... DRoseDARs Feb 2013 #258

I speak from experience. Light House Feb 2013 #259

And again, I can find no reference to this "slang" outside this incident. Highly unlikely it'd go... DRoseDARs Feb 2013 #260

Go ahead and belive what you want, Light House Feb 2013 #261

"This is an internal thing." Ooo, pulling the "secret knowledge" card. Right. You do know slang is DRoseDARs Feb 2013 #263

Here is a link. randome Feb 2013 #267

Tenuous at best, reads like the officer confused the two but I'm not going to continue on slang. DRoseDARs Feb 2013 #270

You were proven wrong and you call it tenuous? Light House Feb 2013 #271

Yes, I call it tenuous. The quote is oddly phrased and given only one example out of how many years? DRoseDARs Feb 2013 #285

Does anyone know Go Vols Feb 2013 #221

No, they are not as effective as the pyrotechnic type tear gas cannister. Light House Feb 2013 #224

a bit more info here: steve2470 Feb 2013 #222

I would have loved to see the commentary on THIS forum when Waco was 'torched'...indeed. Purveyor Feb 2013 #228

on THIS forum? Which forum are you from? robinlynne Feb 2013 #230

Back then...I wasn't on a 'forum' and just what are you suggesting Robinlynne? eom Purveyor Feb 2013 #257

Of course - Dornan had a Constitutional right to kill more people. n/t Lil Missy Feb 2013 #231

Of course that's not even close to what I said, but you know that which cali Feb 2013 #264

In all the coverage, I have yet to hear from anyone in the mental health field. Coyotl Feb 2013 #236

A cop went to arrest him and take him to a mental health check-up and Dorner killed him. cbdo2007 Feb 2013 #274

Thanks for reinforcing my point. Shooting the mentally ill if they pose a threat Coyotl Feb 2013 #275

He didn't "pose a threat" - he actually killed people. If there was any chance he would kill someone cbdo2007 Feb 2013 #287

I oppose killing mental patients. Coyotl Feb 2013 #305

I oppose mental patients killing innocent people more than I oppose killing mental patients who are cbdo2007 Feb 2013 #306

The LAPD almost killed an additional 4 people in their rush murder Dorner. DrewFlorida Feb 2013 #281

I didn't hear about other people being in the cabin. Link?? cbdo2007 Feb 2013 #288

I'm talking about the people the LAPD attacked several days ago while looking for Dorner. DrewFlorida Feb 2013 #291

I think we all agree that they shouldn't have shot at those people.... cbdo2007 Feb 2013 #307

That's right we're talking about them burning down the cabin, and their previous action speak to DrewFlorida Feb 2013 #308

Dorner wanted to go out this way... Kalidurga Feb 2013 #242

The whole cabin thing was taking a way too long rightsideout Feb 2013 #246

On top of all the other problems, the strategy the cops used at that cabin was extremely reckless. backscatter712 Feb 2013 #262

This message was self-deleted by its author davidpdx Feb 2013 #265

It definitely was wrong ... Fantastic Anarchist Feb 2013 #266

You are correct. They should have used a bazooka or missile launcher.... cbdo2007 Feb 2013 #269

Torching Dorner's cabin was not only wrong, it was murder. DrewFlorida Feb 2013 #276

It wasn't "Dorner's cabin," for openers Dreamer Tatum Feb 2013 #277

So now you want to split hairs over the way I identified the cabin, that's petty! DrewFlorida Feb 2013 #280

Due process? You mean because he surrendered? Dreamer Tatum Feb 2013 #283

The two cops he shot were several hours prior to the police murdering him. DrewFlorida Feb 2013 #284

I don't really care. Dreamer Tatum Feb 2013 #286

That's right, fuck Dorner, and fuck the LAPD organization or criminals and murderers. DrewFlorida Feb 2013 #290

Not brave enough to condemn him without condemning them, huh? Dreamer Tatum Feb 2013 #293

Not brave enough? You mean not brave enough to ignore one murderous organization while condemning DrewFlorida Feb 2013 #295

Judge, jury and executioner? Light House Feb 2013 #289

This is a case of murderers murdering a murderer. DrewFlorida Feb 2013 #292

+1 darkangel218 Feb 2013 #299

I'll say it again Light House Feb 2013 #302

It wasnt the police bussiness to punish and torture him. darkangel218 Feb 2013 #297

Crap. Light House Feb 2013 #301

How do you know he offed himself?? darkangel218 Feb 2013 #303

No, I don't know for sure that he offed himself, Light House Feb 2013 #304

You conveniently ignore the other murderous party to these events, the police! DrewFlorida Feb 2013 #309