General Discussion

MADem

(135,425 posts)

119. You just slippery sloped the facts, there, if we're going to talk about those.

Fri Feb 15, 2013, 01:36 PM

Feb 2013

The guy was not 'burned to death.'

He shot himself before the cabin started burning. Of course, the other scenario "sounds" better.

Had he not shot himself, he likely could have escaped with his arms upraised to police custody--an armored vehicle had pulled down many of the exterior walls and busted out the windows by that point--it wasn't like he had to go find a door.

A "high standard of justice" includes keeping the citizenry safe from a rampaging spree killer. I can't help but notice your lack of care for that part of the equation. A spree killer using deadly force against law enforcement and innocent civilians, who refuses to surrender after being asked, time and time again, over the course of a week, has made his decision.

But go on and pretend none of those factors have any weight. I just don't buy that sort of tortured logic. The guy had options, he didn't opt to take them.

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What "due process" does not mean: [View all] geek tragedy Feb 2013 OP

Yeah, a voice of sanity. nobodyspecial Feb 2013 #1

A large portion of DU thinks that it's never okay for cops to kill someone. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #2

Really? I'm sure you can back that claim up, right? Please proceed. Electric Monk Feb 2013 #19

Can you offer even ONE link saying that, much less enough to prove a 'large portion'? Bluenorthwest Feb 2013 #47

You missed all the hysterical claims that this was a lynching, murder, vigilantism, geek tragedy Feb 2013 #50

So you've got nothing? EOTE Feb 2013 #52

If it's not okay for the police to use potentially lethal force against geek tragedy Feb 2013 #65

So again, you've got utterly nothing. EOTE Feb 2013 #67

Police are allowed to use tear gas. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #68

They had standard tear gas available. EOTE Feb 2013 #70

They used standard tear gas, and it didn't work geek tragedy Feb 2013 #72

And HOW did they know it didn't work? EOTE Feb 2013 #74

Are you seriously asking how they didn't know that the standard tear gas didn't geek tragedy Feb 2013 #76

It's to get the suspect out of hiding. EOTE Feb 2013 #80

So, he didn't emerge after the standard tear gas. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #83

Again, they were not in danger at the time. EOTE Feb 2013 #87

Due process does not require them to sit there forever waiting for the guy. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #89

Forever, 2 days, what's the difference? EOTE Feb 2013 #97

Legally, no difference between 2 days and 2 hours. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #98

The PD can not decide to kill based upon what they unilaterally determine is in the best interest of EOTE Feb 2013 #100

When a suspect is armed, dangerous, has killed, kidnapped, and carjacked and has refused to geek tragedy Feb 2013 #104

You know very little of the law. EOTE Feb 2013 #107

It applies from the beginning treestar Feb 2013 #114

You are terribly confused. EOTE Feb 2013 #115

If a person is a THREAT they get treated like a threat. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #137

A man holed up in a cabin surrounded by a small army is not a threat. EOTE Feb 2013 #141

Actually, yes cops do get to unilaterally determine who is a threat geek tragedy Feb 2013 #146

There's that accountability thing. EOTE Feb 2013 #151

Sure, if they behaved illegally they can face sanction. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #155

You and others are determined to see that they DON'T face sanction. EOTE Feb 2013 #160

So says an armchair tactician from behind his keyboard. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #162

I'd much rather have an armchair tactician defending due process and rights... EOTE Feb 2013 #167

I believe the right to barricade yourself in someone else's geek tragedy Feb 2013 #170

Along with every other right we provide suspects. NT EOTE Feb 2013 #176

No. Just that one. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #177

So you think that police have the right to murder anyone that doesn't surrender to them. Got it. EOTE Feb 2013 #178

Not a single thing you wrote is honest or accurate. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #180

So if the police kill someone, it's not murder. Got it. EOTE Feb 2013 #183

Now I know you have no idea of what you're talking about. Light House Feb 2013 #150

You clearly have no idea of what YOU are talking about. EOTE Feb 2013 #152

No, they are not justified to SET FIRE to any building a suspect Light House Feb 2013 #159

You act as if you're the ultimate authority on this matter. EOTE Feb 2013 #163

And you're acting and proving that you haven't clue one Light House Feb 2013 #172

I dare say that I've been in far more deadly sniper standoffs than you have. EOTE Feb 2013 #175

Oh I'm sure you have. Light House Feb 2013 #184

Now you seem to get how the internet works. NT EOTE Feb 2013 #186

Hell, for all any of us know, Light House Feb 2013 #191

I love animals at keyboards! MADem Feb 2013 #197

That's just too precious. eom. Light House Feb 2013 #199

What would have been the harm in waiting? treestar Feb 2013 #99

You're welcome to provide your expert opinion. EOTE Feb 2013 #110

We could always assume they are in the wrong treestar Feb 2013 #117

The PDs have certainly provided tons of reasons for us to believe them. EOTE Feb 2013 #118

I'll weigh in. Light House Feb 2013 #113

Regular tear gas causes burning eyes, Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #81

CS gas is more powerful in terms of its effect on the target. nt geek tragedy Feb 2013 #85

Yes, I understand that... Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #116

the other alternatives may not have been better geek tragedy Feb 2013 #129

Dorner, trapped in a cabin Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #140

I dare say had you been a cop within range of his geek tragedy Feb 2013 #142

geek tragedy.... Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #149

.50 caliber rifles have an accurate range of one kilometer or more geek tragedy Feb 2013 #153

Ah, so it's an issue of money? Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #158

Let me get this straight: geek tragedy Feb 2013 #169

Yours is so patently immoral Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #179

Morally, his life did not outweigh the risks from letting this geek tragedy Feb 2013 #182

You keep insisting the police were in grave danger.... Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #185

So, using tear gas was more extreme than bulldozing the place geek tragedy Feb 2013 #188

We had neither tear gas Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #190

bingo unapatriciated Feb 2013 #232

Thanks for injecting some rationality into this discussion. EOTE Feb 2013 #145

Due process applies only when the suspect Light House Feb 2013 #154

I'm as skeptical of Due Process Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #157

Standard tear gas is nothing compared to CS gas. Light House Feb 2013 #90

Doesn't getting due process pretty much equal not being able to kill regardless of the threat? dkf Feb 2013 #92

No, that's not what due process means. EOTE Feb 2013 #96

Due process requires being alive I assume. dkf Feb 2013 #102

No, that's not the case. EOTE Feb 2013 #105

So you are saying Dorner was not actively threatening anyone's life? dkf Feb 2013 #111

Whose life or lives was he threatening? EOTE Feb 2013 #112

And you are so sure no one was in possible reach of any of his weapons? dkf Feb 2013 #128

If we're not sure, then we must kill. EOTE Feb 2013 #135

The lives of others were in immediate danger treestar Feb 2013 #106

How? They were ~1000 yards back, under a great deal of protection. EOTE Feb 2013 #108

And that's the nub of the issue--not only are the police 'allowed to use deadly force,' they MADem Feb 2013 #84

How are YOU so sure he wasn't already injured and unable to come out when the place got purposely VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #208

You are talking about two different police departments, so stop with the "they" nonsense. MADem Feb 2013 #217

Not defending that guy......are you defending the ends justifying the means? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #225

I am defending the facts, as opposed to the half baked conspiracies. nt MADem Feb 2013 #228

Half Baked conspiracies? I have the audio archive to PROVE they fired incendiary devices VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #229

Yeah, so what? MADem Feb 2013 #230

and "I" am the one with a "half-baked" idea???? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #233

You don't have "evidence." You have words you are interpreting in a specific way to suit your MADem Feb 2013 #234

No I have an actual audio recording ......admit it....you never even listened to see what I had! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #235

Everyone listened to what "you" (and by you, I know you mean network TV) "has." MADem Feb 2013 #236

So that means YOU DIDN'T listen to the actual police scanner audio tape archived right? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #237

Guess what? MADem Feb 2013 #238

then Go away....you began this disagreement. VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #239

Definition of DUE PROCESS VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #3

So, they should have flown a judge out there to hold a hearing? geek tragedy Feb 2013 #5

Oh really....then why are they lying about the fire? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #24

It has not been proven they are lying about intending to start the fire. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #27

Did you reach that conclusion via due process? n/t Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2013 #43

Reached it the same way you can....you can hear the orders with your own ears VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #206

Lying about what? Light House Feb 2013 #46

the sent "incendiary devices" into that building and then denied that they started the fire VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #207

There are also rules regarding arrest treestar Feb 2013 #109

There are a whole lot of cops who handle similar situations Mojorabbit Feb 2013 #4

So, it would have been professional to wait for it to get dark and let the geek tragedy Feb 2013 #6

We don't know for a fact that: kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #8

good grief bigapple1963 Feb 2013 #9

No, we ask that due process is followed regardless of whether or not the cops are really angry. EOTE Feb 2013 #53

If theKed Feb 2013 #122

did they bother to ask the old ladies delivering newspapers to surrender? Or the surfer? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #211

Why don't you ask the widow and two small children of Jeremiah Mackay? geek tragedy Feb 2013 #11

What a pathetic strawman. EOTE Feb 2013 #55

Do you deny that he shot the two cops that day? Coyote_Tan Feb 2013 #21

We don't expect criminals to be justified that's why they're criminals. EOTE Feb 2013 #56

Jeffery Dahmer had heads in his fridge....yet he was asked to surrender....he got due process VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #213

It would hardly have bee unprecedented. cali Feb 2013 #20

They "asked him to surrender" like they asked those two old ladies in the pickup to surrender? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #209

If you say so. He's obviously the victim here. nt geek tragedy Feb 2013 #215

I am not defending him.....but are you defending the ends justify the means? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #224

In the case of subduing an armed, murderous lunatic, yes tear gas was justified. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #227

Your defense of Dorner, Light House Feb 2013 #223

There are a whole lot of criminals who surrender Light House Feb 2013 #7

Based on his manifesto, I am pretty sure he wanted to go out in a blaze of glory. LisaL Feb 2013 #10

You're right. Light House Feb 2013 #12

I think it's very obvious he expected to die and wasn't going to surrender. LisaL Feb 2013 #13

Agreed. eom. Light House Feb 2013 #14

Mass murder is now show biz, and there are fans & wannabes. Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #73

Yes there is. Light House Feb 2013 #77

To some, celebrity of ANY sort is a good and valued thing... Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #193

So we just gave him what he wanted? So that makes it ok? klyon Feb 2013 #192

then why do the cops need to lie about it? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #25

How do you know they're lying? Light House Feb 2013 #45

Their lips are moving? Or, you can listen to the radio feeds from when the fire was started. EOTE Feb 2013 #57

Of course they knew the dangers of these burners. Light House Feb 2013 #60

Uh yes I know that, I made it very clear. EOTE Feb 2013 #63

I'm just a little curious, Light House Feb 2013 #69

My experience in this field means nothing. EOTE Feb 2013 #71

Why is it idiotic to think that Dorner started the fire after the cannisters were deployed? Light House Feb 2013 #75

Standard tear gas was used at Waco. EOTE Feb 2013 #79

You're correct that standard tear gas was used at Waco, Light House Feb 2013 #88

Again, Koresh was a cult leader who wanted his cult to die with him. EOTE Feb 2013 #94

A lot of suppositions here. Light House Feb 2013 #101

You don't seem to be valuing due process as much as you claim. EOTE Feb 2013 #103

You keep refusing to recognize the fact that Dorner Light House Feb 2013 #120

That is not a fact, it's a belief. EOTE Feb 2013 #121

A belief? Light House Feb 2013 #126

You really don't seem to be understanding this. EOTE Feb 2013 #139

And you don't seem to understand Light House Feb 2013 #166

You let them kill themselves? EOTE Feb 2013 #168

"The absolute worst case scenario" thucythucy Feb 2013 #194

If that were to have happened... EOTE Feb 2013 #195

And you shouldn't make assumptions thucythucy Feb 2013 #201

He was totally surrounded. EOTE Feb 2013 #204

7 incendiary devices were delivered yet they don't know how the fire started? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #210

Aw, bullshit. cliffordu Feb 2013 #37

You're right, setting houses on fire is SOP for PDs everywhere. EOTE Feb 2013 #58

not to mention the fact that fire removes all evidence VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #214

Such a situation is not daily or common treestar Feb 2013 #95

Really? Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #144

Really? "A whole lot of cops thucythucy Feb 2013 #196

Yes a whole lot of cops Mojorabbit Feb 2013 #203

This cop thinks differently Mojorabbit Feb 2013 #205

The word you are searching for is "waiver" jberryhill Feb 2013 #15

Some rights aren't waivable. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #16

That's exactly right. Zoeisright Feb 2013 #28

Yup! That's right! No due process was lost here. longship Feb 2013 #17

I'm not saying he was denied due process but I still can't cali Feb 2013 #18

One that killed four people? Confusious Feb 2013 #35

So, was *this* "due process"? Fumesucker Feb 2013 #22

Different problem. cliffordu Feb 2013 #38

From the OP Fumesucker Feb 2013 #44

Indeed there is jberryhill Feb 2013 #202

This conversation is SO STUPID. Confusing truly unrelated issues... Bonobo Feb 2013 #23

if that is all true....why do the cops need to lie about it? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #26

His post doesn't say Dorner didn't have a right to due process. nt Honeycombe8 Feb 2013 #29

He had a right to due process. That right was not violated by the police. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #31

Well, I don't have enough facts. Bonobo Feb 2013 #34

Well, fuck. cliffordu Feb 2013 #39

"Anyone who says that Chris Dorner was deprived of due process because cops stopped letting Hissyspit Feb 2013 #30

As a legal matter, his due process rights were not violated. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #32

Did the LEOs know without a doubt there was noone else in the cabin before the "burn the pkdu Feb 2013 #33

stand offs that last a long time are in situations where people aren't being shot at TorchTheWitch Feb 2013 #36

^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^ cliffordu Feb 2013 #40

"burning the cabin as apposed to the police shooting back at him" jberryhill Feb 2013 #54

+1! n/t zappaman Feb 2013 #187

" likely had no hostages since he was chased into the cabin ..." And.. pkdu Feb 2013 #222

Again, all the info together told them there were no hostages TorchTheWitch Feb 2013 #226

It is willful ignorance and purposeful mis-statements of facts such as this Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #41

In what way were Chris Dorner's rights violated at that cabin? nt geek tragedy Feb 2013 #42

He was executed by the police. Why didn't they just use a sniper to blow him away? Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #127

Um, no. They are allowed to use lethal force against dangerous suspects. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #132

Why didn't you answer the question? Why not simply use a sniper to take him out? Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #164

Why not use a sniper? geek tragedy Feb 2013 #173

Before you go around throwing out terms like "painfully stupid" Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #198

Well, subsituting "possible" for "reasonable" radically changes geek tragedy Feb 2013 #200

Instead of attacking the messenger, Light House Feb 2013 #48

I didn't attack the messenger, but rather the message he has flogged off in the OP. Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #124

Yes he did have rights, Light House Feb 2013 #130

That's exactly what I wrote about in the initial reply, contorting the facts to fit Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #148

Due process does not mean 'I see a truck, let's unload our weapons without warning'. Bluenorthwest Feb 2013 #49

This is not about the abhorrent actions by those cops against those civilians. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #51

Those actions theKed Feb 2013 #131

They treated him like a highly dangerous suspect geek tragedy Feb 2013 #133

Tell that to the Republicans... theKed Feb 2013 #134

I'm citing the law. There is a right to not be presumed guilty. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #138

Sense of humor. theKed Feb 2013 #171

Too many posts that would read like jokes in rational geek tragedy Feb 2013 #174

You are wrong. Light House Feb 2013 #136

the police are denying they deliberately burned the cabin Enrique Feb 2013 #59

I'm not a fan of overzealous police Progressive dog Feb 2013 #61

All they need to do is look at the interviews with his former girlfriend. MADem Feb 2013 #62

Thank you. Light House Feb 2013 #64

The ex-girlfriend's remarks are chilling--and she was in a relationship MADem Feb 2013 #123

Maybe it's because of my background, Light House Feb 2013 #143

His suicide manifesto made it clear he intended to die. MADem Feb 2013 #165

Indeed, the irony is that the LAPD hires people like Chris Dorner. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #66

I think he made a very fine first impression, but didn't have the emotional fortitude or the MADem Feb 2013 #125

I don't think those of us claiming lack of due process are claiming that he was a good guy. Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #82

No, people are pointing out that the claims that it's been proven geek tragedy Feb 2013 #86

You just slippery sloped the facts, there, if we're going to talk about those. MADem Feb 2013 #119

Fail. Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #78

Actually, your statement is factually false on a number of levels. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #93

Free to walk out? The Straight Story Feb 2013 #156

He had a legal obligation to walk out and surrender. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #161

He was free to surrender himself during his week on the run. Light House Feb 2013 #181

Thank you! treestar Feb 2013 #91

Nice strawman! One side of the story has certainly been silenced. Coyotl Feb 2013 #147

Not silenced, Just ignored outside of DU and Infowars. nt geek tragedy Feb 2013 #189

Shooting at cops is likely to end in death quakerboy Feb 2013 #212

Well, yeah. And aside from a teeny tiny number of people, no geek tragedy Feb 2013 #216

LOL !!! - Another "Great American" Pipes In... - Proving He Knows NOTHING Of BEING An American... WillyT Feb 2013 #218

Um, I knew he wasn't burned to death by police. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #219

And You Are SO Lucky In That Way... And If I Were You... I'd Keep Kissing Corporate Ass... WillyT Feb 2013 #220

Can you at least stay on topic in your childish, baseless insults? geek tragedy Feb 2013 #221

Some people resist arrest with lethal or potentially lethal violence quaker bill Feb 2013 #231