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Are_grits_groceries

(17,139 posts)

43. Jefferson acted to an open and ongoing explicit threat in a certain area.

Sun Feb 17, 2013, 03:25 AM

Feb 2013

The Barbary Pirates were disrupting trade in the Mediterranean. There was a specific area of danger by specific group. When they engaged the US Navy, they were not some shadowy group that was hard to pinpoint.

While Jefferson's actions were not under review by other branches of government, what was being done was out in the open with no questions about what was happening to who and where for what. He had no cabal in the White House deciding who would be killed given info by the CIA, that paragon of certainty and truth.

In addition, he had no groups of trained military personnel flitting about the world engaged in whatever the hell he deemed necessary.

The US was in its infancy and the challenges faced were as formidable as they are now. Jefferson's actions were not ideal in an 'advise and consent' construct, but they were extremely limited compared to the liberties taken today by the Executive branch today.

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Jefferson and drones [View all] Recursion Feb 2013 OP

Yes, let's make any argument we can to justify ditching our liberties whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #1

I'm pointing out that this is a debate as old as the Republic Recursion Feb 2013 #2

Well let me point out whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #6

The Administration has not claimed an authority to assassinate arbitrary Americans "who might pose struggle4progress Feb 2013 #22

They need to rewrite it whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #23

Who needs to rewrite what? struggle4progress Feb 2013 #25

The legal basis for that provision of the NDAA whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #26

There seems to have been a political consensus in the US for about a dozen years struggle4progress Feb 2013 #27

Fuck political consensus whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #28

If you merely intend to complain without effect, why should anyone listen? But if you want an effect struggle4progress Feb 2013 #30

If you get that person to actually evaluate your points logically, you should get appointed the stevenleser Feb 2013 #32

Unfortunately, to convince people, it is usually necessary to get them to reach struggle4progress Feb 2013 #33

This is typical of what I have seen of the anti-drone crowd on DU. Non-rational when it comes to stevenleser Feb 2013 #35

Bullshit whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #36

You clearly haven't heard anything stevenleser Feb 2013 #39

Uh huh whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #41

You win the debate as any reasoned person can see. stevenleser Feb 2013 #29

whatchamacallit has it Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #24

Whose liberties? My liberties are just fine. EastKYLiberal Feb 2013 #7

Oh yay whatchamacallit Feb 2013 #9

What pirate ship was Alawi on? tblue Feb 2013 #3

I'm sure Jefferson would have been in favor of drones. hughee99 Feb 2013 #4

Did you skip the part of the OP that said that Jefferson did exactly what you suggest would appall stevenleser Feb 2013 #34

You don't see a difference between allowing attacks on pirate ships hughee99 Feb 2013 #38

No, I dont see the difference. And that is based on the anti-drone arguments as presented stevenleser Feb 2013 #40

Obama hate. That must be it. hughee99 Feb 2013 #42

Jefferson? Ah, yes, in praise of 225 years unhampered by progress. HereSince1628 Feb 2013 #5

i wasn't trying to say it's easy, just that it's precedented Recursion Feb 2013 #8

Yes, but, precedent doesn't actually validate throwing away 200 yrs of moral progress... HereSince1628 Feb 2013 #11

Like what? What moral progress or progress of any kind has been made in dealing with that kind of a stevenleser Feb 2013 #31

We no longer summarily hang pirates from yardarms Recursion Feb 2013 #44

Now we fire bullets, shells and missiles at their boats from warships. stevenleser Feb 2013 #45

We always did that Recursion Feb 2013 #46

"Because I do it with one small ship, I am called a terrorist. You do it with a whole fleet... Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2013 #10

I've heard that called "Jefferson's self-imposed War Powers Act" in the past. Gorp Feb 2013 #12

There has been a distinction, historically Recursion Feb 2013 #14

"America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy." John Quincy Adams Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2013 #13

On our better days Recursion Feb 2013 #15

Obviously, the military and CIA consider themselves above the law. Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2013 #16

In seven years in the Marine Corps, I never met anyone Recursion Feb 2013 #17

You never met any officers? Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2013 #19

I met plenty of officers Recursion Feb 2013 #20

They were more concerned with kissing ass than the peasants were. Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2013 #21

The best that can be said in response is that the drone targets are very rarely if ever geek tragedy Feb 2013 #18

Excellent OP. nt msanthrope Feb 2013 #37

Jefferson acted to an open and ongoing explicit threat in a certain area. Are_grits_groceries Feb 2013 #43