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In reply to the discussion: 'I don't want to go to Disney World anymore': Parents' fury as TSA agents detain their crying [View all]markpkessinger
(8,875 posts)77. Here's a blogpost I wrote a couple of years ago . . .
. . . addressing the question of whether or not these intrusive TSA procedures were, in fact, keeping anybody "safe."
[font size=1 color=gray]NOVEMBER 24, 2010 5:12AM[/font]
[font size=5]My response to Ruth Marcus[/font]
In her Washington Post column titled, "Don't touch my junk? Grow up, America" (Nov. 24, 2010), Ruth Marcus scolds:
I think what constitutes "immaturity" is for the country to allow policy to be driven by raw emotionalism and irrational fear rather than by a sober, data-driven analysis.
According to the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, there are approximately 28,537 flights per day in the U..S. That means in the past nine years since 9/11, there have been over 93 million flights. In the same period, there have been three attempts to carry explosives onto commercial aircraft (none of which were successful): (1) Richard Reid, the "shoe-bomber," (2) the London liquid bomb plot and (3) the more recent "underwear bomber." So, based on three incidents, or 1 in 31 million, hundreds of millions of people are being asked to endure, respectively (1) the absurd ritual of removing belts and shoes, (2) having their shampoo confiscated if its half an ounce bigger than what is now permitted and (3) being subject to a virtual strip search or intrusive pat down, in effect being treated as if they were criminal suspects. Yet people still buy into the line that these things are "necessary to keep us safe."
The right to be secure in one's person is surely at the heart of the Constitutional protection against unreasonable search and seizure. The Fourth Amendment stipulates the requirement of "probable cause," which the courts in recent decades have relaxed to the lower standard of "reasonable suspicion." In the case of airline passengers en masse, there is neither. But the TSA, by using the scanners and/or pat-downs, is effectively treating everyone as if they had reasonable suspicion sufficient to warrant a search of their persons.
Given that it is generally accepted (intellectually if not always emotionally) that there is no possible way for the government to provide a 100% guarantee of safety, what, then, is a fair margin of risk? With a rate of occurrence over a nine year period of 1 in 31 million, WITHOUT (prior to) the scanners and/or newly intrusive pat downs, I would say we are doing a fine job already, and that we don't need to go around instituting new procedures every time an incident occurs (and there will, inevitably, be more occurrences). How "safe" do we really need to be?
Finally, the question begs: if a rate of occurrence of 1 in 31 million rises to a level of risk sufficient to broadly abrogate citizens' rights under the Constitution, what, then, can the government not justify in the name of "safety" or "security?" At that point, we've pretty much defined out of existence the possibility of any search under any circumstance being deemed unreasonable.
So, no, Ms. Marcus, the issue is not one of "immaturity" on the part of those who are opposed to the new machines and/or pat downs. But there may well be a maturity issue with those blindly accept anything the government tries to impose upon us (and anything former government officials are getting rich from selling to us) in the name of "safety," when they have never actually remotely made that case.
[font size=5]My response to Ruth Marcus[/font]
In her Washington Post column titled, "Don't touch my junk? Grow up, America" (Nov. 24, 2010), Ruth Marcus scolds:
The uproar over the new procedures is overblown and immature. The marginal invasion of privacy is small relative to the potential benefit of averting a terrorist attack.
I think what constitutes "immaturity" is for the country to allow policy to be driven by raw emotionalism and irrational fear rather than by a sober, data-driven analysis.
According to the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, there are approximately 28,537 flights per day in the U..S. That means in the past nine years since 9/11, there have been over 93 million flights. In the same period, there have been three attempts to carry explosives onto commercial aircraft (none of which were successful): (1) Richard Reid, the "shoe-bomber," (2) the London liquid bomb plot and (3) the more recent "underwear bomber." So, based on three incidents, or 1 in 31 million, hundreds of millions of people are being asked to endure, respectively (1) the absurd ritual of removing belts and shoes, (2) having their shampoo confiscated if its half an ounce bigger than what is now permitted and (3) being subject to a virtual strip search or intrusive pat down, in effect being treated as if they were criminal suspects. Yet people still buy into the line that these things are "necessary to keep us safe."
The right to be secure in one's person is surely at the heart of the Constitutional protection against unreasonable search and seizure. The Fourth Amendment stipulates the requirement of "probable cause," which the courts in recent decades have relaxed to the lower standard of "reasonable suspicion." In the case of airline passengers en masse, there is neither. But the TSA, by using the scanners and/or pat-downs, is effectively treating everyone as if they had reasonable suspicion sufficient to warrant a search of their persons.
Given that it is generally accepted (intellectually if not always emotionally) that there is no possible way for the government to provide a 100% guarantee of safety, what, then, is a fair margin of risk? With a rate of occurrence over a nine year period of 1 in 31 million, WITHOUT (prior to) the scanners and/or newly intrusive pat downs, I would say we are doing a fine job already, and that we don't need to go around instituting new procedures every time an incident occurs (and there will, inevitably, be more occurrences). How "safe" do we really need to be?
Finally, the question begs: if a rate of occurrence of 1 in 31 million rises to a level of risk sufficient to broadly abrogate citizens' rights under the Constitution, what, then, can the government not justify in the name of "safety" or "security?" At that point, we've pretty much defined out of existence the possibility of any search under any circumstance being deemed unreasonable.
So, no, Ms. Marcus, the issue is not one of "immaturity" on the part of those who are opposed to the new machines and/or pat downs. But there may well be a maturity issue with those blindly accept anything the government tries to impose upon us (and anything former government officials are getting rich from selling to us) in the name of "safety," when they have never actually remotely made that case.
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'I don't want to go to Disney World anymore': Parents' fury as TSA agents detain their crying [View all]
Tony_FLADEM
Feb 2013
OP
Yes, because cell phones with video recording capability are such a rarity these days.
bullwinkle428
Feb 2013
#8
A billion people & 4 have gone through airports...4 make complaints with cameras
graham4anything
Feb 2013
#15
Benjamin Franklin said "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".
graham4anything
Feb 2013
#19
you really think frisking a crying little girl in a wheelchair would have prevented this?
bowens43
Feb 2013
#22
I have to say, I'm with you on this deal. The girl cried...well, gosh amighty. I do believe that...
BlueJazz
Feb 2013
#70
Ah, NO. Being free means having NOTHING. With responsiblity comes SOMETHING
graham4anything
Feb 2013
#114
Name a single terrorist the TSA has intercepted using these measures n/t
markpkessinger
Feb 2013
#75
That's a question that can never be answered because...it's a red herring question.
graham4anything
Feb 2013
#78
If you are talking about law enforcement stopping crimes, sure. HOWEVER-
graham4anything
Feb 2013
#87
However, someone seeing a person NOT a cop, with a gun, can have a heart attack
graham4anything
Feb 2013
#100
And can you guess what the one thing the TSA has never prevented from getting on a plane?
AtheistCrusader
Feb 2013
#86
He also said that those who sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither. n/t
lumberjack_jeff
Feb 2013
#32
Benjamin Franklin also said "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."nt
Xipe Totec
Feb 2013
#36
YOu can't pick and choose a quote. All of Franklin's quotes apply to stopping terrorists
graham4anything
Feb 2013
#72
The same Franklin who said "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
EOTE
Feb 2013
#64
He also said, "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,...
X_Digger
Feb 2013
#99
Franklin also said that those who would give up their liberties to attain temporary safety
Arkana
Feb 2013
#109
You do not speak for me, therefore you statement "the rest of us do" is faux.
graham4anything
Feb 2013
#41
Please list the number of bombs and terrorists TSA has caught. Send me a link. n-t
Logical
Feb 2013
#135
The little girl works for Ralph Nader, Her evil agenda is obvious, cut the G a little
Dragonfli
Feb 2013
#44
I have no doubt you feel compelled to attribute an ill-defined agenda to the mother
LanternWaste
Feb 2013
#128
Sounds like the TSA agent never touched the child and the parents freaked, anyway.
leveymg
Feb 2013
#4
Seems to me like the child was upset at their stuffed toy not being returned...
Earth_First
Feb 2013
#14
Really - a 3 y/o's wheelchair, in attendance with family, might have explosives?
Hestia
Feb 2013
#25
um, THIS universe. If I were a terrorist and I knew that TSA agents were giving a pass to--
Moonwalk
Feb 2013
#105
LOL, finding a gun, knife, weapon does not mean discovering a terrorist. What a reach! n-t
Logical
Feb 2013
#136
What's sad is watching the TSA agents ask an elderly person in a wheelchair
geek tragedy
Feb 2013
#6
+1. My mom's had a stroke. She uses a rolling walker, more for balance than support.
winter is coming
Feb 2013
#26
And some people just want to go on their way without unnecessary hassles.
Comrade Grumpy
Feb 2013
#24
The courts have maintained that recording of law enforcement activity is NOT illegal
davidn3600
Feb 2013
#46
If the TSA was genuinely regretful over the incident, the agency should fire the individuals.
AnotherMcIntosh
Feb 2013
#160
Not to detract from the outrageousness of the incident, but isn't three a little young
Cleita
Feb 2013
#34
My husband and I took my 2 and 3 year old daughters to Disney World 5 years ago.
Jennicut
Feb 2013
#74
What's almost amazing as the TSA's thuggery are some of the responses on this thread.
MadHound
Feb 2013
#45
Wow, I'm so glad the TSA heroes stopped this three-year-old disabled terrorist!
backscatter712
Feb 2013
#48
Wheelchairs and Scooters - Travelers with Disabilities and Medical Conditions
FarCenter
Feb 2013
#63
If your job is violating the liberty and dignity of thousands of people every day, FUCK YOUR JOB.
backscatter712
Feb 2013
#149
I for one feel much safer now that we are patting down wheel-chair bound little girls.
Kurska
Feb 2013
#85
Again, if this shit is allowed to happen... the Terrorists have clearly fucking WON.
AzDar
Feb 2013
#97
My friend's 91 year old mom nearly caused a riot refusing to remove her shoes
Jersey Devil
Feb 2013
#115
In 2008 at the Nashville airport, my wheelchair-bound wife, age 73, was subject to a grueling
indepat
Feb 2013
#131
TSA security is a JOKE! Worthless. Not useful and a waste of time and money. n-t
Logical
Feb 2013
#134