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Democracyinkind

(4,015 posts)

37. I like the drift of this

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 05:20 PM

Feb 2013

Unfortunately, most of it is not true. Kind of ironic that a Rousseauian construct (the "noble savage&quot would go on to become a central element in native american self-perception.

Study the Iroquois - the conclusion will be that they were not fundamentally different. Their story is the story of the evolution of all humankind in all places through all ages, the same challenges, problems, stories of success and defeat... For me, that makes the way they lived even more remarkable: yes, they had their equivalent of criminals, etc. and their ways of dealing with them are quite enlightening...

As with all human societies - there's many things to be envious of from today's perspective, but there's also lots of terrible shit that none of us minds living without.

They do not have to be mythical, romantic superheros in order to warrant our interest and admiration. They deserve it as those whom they were: Fragile human beings like us taking the wild ride of life and trying to make something out of it.

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"Before our white brothers arrived to make us civilized men�" [View all] MrScorpio Feb 2013 OP

K/R. Also, there was not such thing as "property", as we know it. NYC_SKP Feb 2013 #1

There most certainly WAS property as we know it. It was owned, allocated and protected by the tribe. KittyWampus Feb 2013 #27

That's actually not true. Matariki Feb 2013 #51

And gold was considered to be useless... Veri1138 Feb 2013 #81

So who's really the more "civilized" race? Brigid Feb 2013 #2

You see malaise Feb 2013 #6

didn't the league of Iriquois predate the white man coming to America? dsc Feb 2013 #3

I think it did. white_wolf Feb 2013 #5

Old and wise men were their politicians Warpy Feb 2013 #8

They also had the wisdom to give representation to the 7th generation regarding all decisions Dragonfli Feb 2013 #24

you speak truth. BlancheSplanchnik Feb 2013 #57

kind of like every other pre-industrial culture. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #67

Yes, it remains the second oldest representative parliament in the World mikekohr Feb 2013 #110

Part true, for some groups of NA, lots of bullshit too. NA had slavery Exultant Democracy Feb 2013 #4

" there was not a thief, nor a vicious man, nor an adulteress, nor was a bad woman ..." Coyotl Feb 2013 #7

We Indians are Latin America's moral reserve. We act according to a universal law that consists of mikekohr Feb 2013 #116

Right on! Coyotl Feb 2013 #120

Talking to Owls and Butterflies Octafish Feb 2013 #9

Reminds me of "Black Elk Speaks." Beartracks Feb 2013 #19

True but they would have, eventually treestar Feb 2013 #10

not much advantage in being a thief when you depend on your tribe for everything, so you're HiPointDem Feb 2013 #68

So no other tribes were ever involved in one's life? Bandit Feb 2013 #98

what is your problem? i'm obviously talking about within one's own tribe. and. fyi. there are HiPointDem Feb 2013 #105

I got to visit Uluru treestar Feb 2013 #104

That part is total BS dbackjon Feb 2013 #99

Whatever did they do without Walmart? nm rhett o rick Feb 2013 #11

Of all the people thoughtout history the American Indian is my favorite madokie Feb 2013 #12

They lived their lives in tune with mother nature. AlbertCat Feb 2013 #15

Yes they had wars and conflict just like all humans do zeemike Feb 2013 #32

Counting coup was limited to a few Plains nations, and developed long after contact with whites Recursion Feb 2013 #34

"developed long after contact with whites" zeemike Feb 2013 #36

This book is a good start Recursion Feb 2013 #39

I am sure that is a good book zeemike Feb 2013 #52

Thank you! cabot Feb 2013 #40

Another tidbit that is often neglected to be mentioned is... Javaman Feb 2013 #85

Columbus noted in his journals that young girls of the ages 9 to 10 were the most desired by his men mikekohr Feb 2013 #111

They hunted every mammal larger than the bison to extinction Recursion Feb 2013 #35

Including horses... Peter cotton Feb 2013 #43

LOL! Killed off the dinosaurs too, I reckon. Maybe even caused the ice age with all those campfirea! Zorra Feb 2013 #62

No, the dinosaurs were 65 million years before humans Recursion Feb 2013 #64

I don't think you know what you're talking about madokie Feb 2013 #83

Really? Recursion Feb 2013 #84

Really madokie Feb 2013 #88

It is easier to justify the disposession and near extirmination of a People when you marginalize mikekohr Feb 2013 #103

Or perhaps massive climate change was the culprit, but let's blame the Indians anyway mikekohr Feb 2013 #86

The earliest evidence found is 18kya. Where are you getting 28k-38k? Recursion Feb 2013 #87

Monte Verde site in Chile may date to 33,000 BP mikekohr Feb 2013 #101

I love how you assume I haven't read Mann Recursion Feb 2013 #102

You asked for a source and now you turn the posting of the source mikekohr Feb 2013 #106

What animal, at that time, was bigger than a bison and savannah43 Feb 2013 #94

Bison are clearly not bigger than the bison Recursion Feb 2013 #96

Bison are far larger than Caribou, even Sarah Palin knows this mikekohr Feb 2013 #107

The megafauna of the North American continent included mammoths, giant ground sloths, mastodons... Ikonoklast Feb 2013 #97

Before the white man came, there were no horses. hobbit709 Feb 2013 #13

Well, that certainly makes the demise of the NA Indian all worthwhile, doesn't it? nt. OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #14

Just pointing out that horse were an invasive species, just like many others that came with them hobbit709 Feb 2013 #16

horse were an invasive species, AlbertCat Feb 2013 #18

Humans on the earth are like bacteria on the surface of an orange.... OldDem2012 Feb 2013 #20

par�a�site iamthebandfanman Feb 2013 #23

"The earth is an organism, and that organism has a skin; that skin has diseases... alterfurz Feb 2013 #89

Before the white man came, there were no horses. AlbertCat Feb 2013 #17

To put it that way, no. But there is a great deal of respect for their close relationship with gtar100 Feb 2013 #63

So don't lay out falsely narrow choices. AlbertCat Feb 2013 #115

Haha Like all Americans today are the same. gtar100 Feb 2013 #117

There were horses in NA until around the time that the natives crossed over from Siberia. cemaphonic Feb 2013 #74

Over-romanticized twaddle. Peter cotton Feb 2013 #21

Would One Want To Elaborate On The Profundity Of "Over-romanticized twaddle"? cantbeserious Feb 2013 #22

Over-romanticized twaddle lacks profundity by definition. Peter cotton Feb 2013 #41

A Recursive Definition - Not Very Illuminating cantbeserious Feb 2013 #59

On the contrary. Peter cotton Feb 2013 #78

We Will Have To Agree To Disagree cantbeserious Feb 2013 #80

Welcome to DU. I look forward to more of your posts. nt msanthrope Feb 2013 #118

Thanks! Peter cotton Feb 2013 #121

This message was self-deleted by its author datasuspect Feb 2013 #79

Couching some essential truths... Orsino Feb 2013 #93

Weren't there 500 nations? Did all of them have the same laws and way of life? Did all of them get lunamagica Feb 2013 #25

IIRC, most if not all Native American tribes were essentially matriarchal. kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #30

There were a few, but most were patriarchal and practiced a warrior cult Recursion Feb 2013 #33

PILGRIMS, PURITANS, CHRISTIANS, COLONISTS: mikekohr Feb 2013 #108

no such generalization can be made. there's a wide variation in time and space. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #71

Before individual property rights, property belonged to tribes. You'd no choice but adhere to tribal KittyWampus Feb 2013 #26

"Don't romantize tribal life." - Seems to work pretty well for the wealthy. n/t jtuck004 Feb 2013 #28

Did they have plumbing, sewerage and heating systems? Nye Bevan Feb 2013 #29

Yes, see Central Mexico circa 1400, as to the theft of Manhattan mikekohr Feb 2013 #109

The First Nations practiced genocidal warfare, slavery, and hunted species to extinction Recursion Feb 2013 #31

Shh, the noble savage, in perfect harmony with nature and each other shall not be questioned. X_Digger Feb 2013 #47

I like the drift of this Democracyinkind Feb 2013 #37

Ah, I read your post after writing my own Matariki Feb 2013 #50

Great Post. nt mikekohr Feb 2013 #114

Well I dated this beautiful Seminole, DeadEyeDyck Feb 2013 #38

A reminder moondust Feb 2013 #42

The Matrix? Peter cotton Feb 2013 #44

LOL moondust Feb 2013 #54

Thank you for this. ananda Feb 2013 #45

How to Write the Great American Indian Novel CBGLuthier Feb 2013 #46

Very nice. Matariki Feb 2013 #49

That's a very romanticized view. Matariki Feb 2013 #48

I don't romanticize Native Americans ismnotwasm Feb 2013 #53

most tribal societies are socialistic. it's kind of a feature. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #72

What I see in this thread City of Mills Feb 2013 #55

Lame Deer wasn't around at the time either Recursion Feb 2013 #56

I think it's ironic that you say so, considering that Lame Deer spent most of his life living HiPointDem Feb 2013 #70

Where, pray, would I find indian history but in books - written by "red", "white", "historian" and Democracyinkind Feb 2013 #76

I'm confused Matariki Feb 2013 #77

well, I'm getting an education from this thread. BlancheSplanchnik Feb 2013 #58

A lot of imperialist nostalgia here. Nolimit Feb 2013 #60

so true. white people just love indians -- now. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #73

They recieved their spiritual enlightenment from Aliens and Bigfoots Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #61

Desmond Tutu: "When the white man came, they had the Bible, and we had the land. And they said, struggle4progress Feb 2013 #65

not original to tutu. e.g. here's a book from 1976: HiPointDem Feb 2013 #75

thanx! struggle4progress Feb 2013 #100

Tecumseh on the white man's religion: alterfurz Feb 2013 #91

Tecumseh's Creed mikekohr Feb 2013 #113

absence of locks, private property, prisons, etc isn't specific to native americans; it's the usual HiPointDem Feb 2013 #66

I was once informed by an african immigrant quakerboy Feb 2013 #69

Ronald Reagan on Native Americans mikekohr Feb 2013 #82

Unless you belonged to another tribe. Brickbat Feb 2013 #90

The quote is romantic - a longing for a heritage that was torn, instead of let to evolve. toby jo Feb 2013 #92

thank you niyad Feb 2013 #95

This was posted By Randy Isbister, my Native friend from Saskatchewan, on my Facebook Page mikekohr Feb 2013 #112

This is the kind of sentimental tripe that appeals to people who didn't pay attention in their msanthrope Feb 2013 #119

You should read "Lame Deer, Seeker of Visions." from which the lead post was taken mikekohr Feb 2013 #122