General Discussion

bhikkhu

(10,789 posts)

83. Its one way of looking at the numbers

Sun Mar 3, 2013, 04:13 PM

Mar 2013

...but the reason they look that way is specific to the method. If you let all the bush tax cuts expire and go back to the tax rates before them, then impose the current tax rates on those old tax rates - what is the difference? The difference in the article is that not all the taxes on the wealthiest were increased all the way to their former rates. Because the sums at the top are so large, looked at that way it appears Obama just gave the rich a disproportionately large tax break.

Looked at another way, Obama kept the status quo for everybody but the wealthy - who had their taxes raised. I don't have a problem with Citizens for Tax Justice, but in anything on this subject you have to keep your head and read carefully, there's always ways to put things that will make them look unfair one way or another.

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We need a new Democratic Party [View all] MannyGoldstein Mar 2013 OP

Can't argue with any of that. K&R Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #1

"incredibly low rates, far lower than many in the middle class" is arguable bhikkhu Mar 2013 #15

How's about you post what rates the 1% ACTUALLY pay... 99Forever Mar 2013 #23

That's the point DollarBillHines Mar 2013 #52

I think we are mostly in agreement. 99Forever Mar 2013 #59

I was speaking of property, gas, sales taxes, etc. DollarBillHines Mar 2013 #95

Here's the background on the source for that graphic: bhikkhu Mar 2013 #64

Yep, righties complain about the high "rates" of taxes on corporations too... cascadiance Mar 2013 #113

I don't think that your figures include capital gains MannyGoldstein Mar 2013 #29

Its supposed to include capital gains, federal and state, sales tax, property taxes, etc bhikkhu Mar 2013 #67

Capitals gains is the central point, and the bulk of the poolside billionaires' income. GoneFishin Mar 2013 #122

Capital gains is a much different rate than income tax, this is alsp the reason Warren Buffett Thinkingabout Mar 2013 #123

This assumes the wealthy earn their income through salaries Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #31

The top one percent have just experienced the loss of the Bush tax cuts for themselves fasttense Mar 2013 #43

Yes, it includes state and federal, property taxes, sales tax, etc bhikkhu Mar 2013 #65

Yes, you're right. But it does note that certain MannyGoldstein Mar 2013 #79

Your figures are only sulphurdunn Mar 2013 #80

Talk about cherry-picking - why not post some of the OTHER info bread_and_roses Mar 2013 #133

Screw the Wealthy.. Capt13 Mar 2013 #168

Yes, that's how some of us understand the issue. truedelphi Mar 2013 #174

That says based on "income". I don't think capital gains is considered income cui bono Mar 2013 #192

Capital gains are considered "unearned income" Art_from_Ark Mar 2013 #250

Sorry, it's the system that needs changing more than anything else cali Mar 2013 #2

Agreed. AndyA Mar 2013 #7

^ THIS ^ octoberlib Mar 2013 #11

+1 uponit7771 Mar 2013 #12

Catch-22. The people who have the power to change the system are part of the system. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #13

That is absolutely true. MineralMan Mar 2013 #18

Ya but they changed some things over night to make them crappier. glinda Mar 2013 #50

exactly- how long did it take for the scoundrels to pass the (un)patriot act? green for victory Mar 2013 #130

The people who have the power to change the system CONTROL the system CanonRay Mar 2013 #46

French Revolution says 'non.' tblue Mar 2013 #92

That is the problem that needs attention asap. glinda Mar 2013 #187

When Our People Can't Take Anymore AndyTiedye Mar 2013 #223

Good point, in my opinion. nt ZombieHorde Mar 2013 #101

We need to fix the voting system first. Wont be able to get campaign finance laws rhett o rick Mar 2013 #125

We need far more change than just how campaigns are paid for. n/t Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #159

Yep, this too, and to curtail lobbying. woo me with science Mar 2013 #181

Ratfuckers generally do advocate for a "new" Democratic party. But that's not what you are, right KittyWampus Mar 2013 #3

Well that is pretty hateful. Warren Stupidity Mar 2013 #178

wtf? Marrah_G Mar 2013 #188

Way to make his point, Kitty. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #215

That was nasty. Le Taz Hot Mar 2013 #217

Your reply makes his point. That is a hateful reply aimed at stifling discussion. rhett o rick Mar 2013 #224

How was the hangover this morning? UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #248

If Manny is a ratfucker... awoke_in_2003 Mar 2013 #264

That's pretty over the top. el_bryanto Oct 2013 #265

Personally, I think you're welcome to do that. MineralMan Mar 2013 #4

Maybe if you advertise on Craig's list and start a new website graham4anything Mar 2013 #5

We certainly need to restate clearly what the Democratic Party stands for. canoeist52 Mar 2013 #6

Wait ProSense Mar 2013 #8

Wait Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #16

Hey, ProSense Mar 2013 #19

He's also making the point tha Obama is offering the Republicans what they want. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #26

Well, ProSense Mar 2013 #28

The problem 'centrists' face right now is that one Party is offering actual compromise (DNC) Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #198

raising taxes on the rich did NOT win hfojvt Mar 2013 #32

There you go again ProSense Mar 2013 #37

they are not my numbers hfojvt Mar 2013 #44

"And Krugman is a tool" ProSense Mar 2013 #45

Nice try, but some of us are paying attention brentspeak Mar 2013 #70

Thanks for ProSense Mar 2013 #75

What, you mean the numbers you keep spamming? brentspeak Mar 2013 #84

LOL! ProSense Mar 2013 #93

Its one way of looking at the numbers bhikkhu Mar 2013 #83

maybe because the status quo was so evil hfojvt Mar 2013 #96

What utter nonsense. ProSense Mar 2013 #99

wrong again hfojvt Mar 2013 #103

More nonsense. ProSense Mar 2013 #105

uh huh hfojvt Mar 2013 #111

Beyond silly ProSense Mar 2013 #114

I know damned well that "across the board tax cuts" favor the rich hfojvt Mar 2013 #118

I know ProSense Mar 2013 #119

He raised taxes on the rich bhikkhu Mar 2013 #100

no, sorry, that is just a movement of goalposts hfojvt Mar 2013 #106

You're the one moving goalposts. ProSense Mar 2013 #107

uhm hfojvt Mar 2013 #115

Wow, ProSense Mar 2013 #117

no, I am facing facts hfojvt Mar 2013 #120

Hey, ProSense Mar 2013 #121

I'm getting a sense of deja vu hfojvt Mar 2013 #129

Exactly. Capital gains should be taxed higher than earned income. nt SunSeeker Mar 2013 #146

Sign me up. tblue Mar 2013 #9

We certainly have to do something... TheProgressive Mar 2013 #10

Maybe a mass movement of some kind... PETRUS Mar 2013 #14

If enough people demand it with their vote, it will come along. nt Poll_Blind Mar 2013 #17

Yeah, ProSense Mar 2013 #22

One that stands for good government, that won't trade long-term stability for today's talking points bhikkhu Mar 2013 #20

What'sa Matter Manny, GOP Implosion Getting You Down? U Figure The Dems Need One of Their Own Too? Skraxx Mar 2013 #21

The Democratic politicians are destroying the party leftstreet Mar 2013 #34

Last I Checked, Despite The Whining In The Peanut Gallery Skraxx Mar 2013 #234

If the Left doesn't make demands tblue Mar 2013 #91

Wow! Le Taz Hot Mar 2013 #218

LOL!! Credible?? LOL! DU Standards Of "Credible" Must Be Lacking Skraxx Mar 2013 #220

Enjoy your stay. Le Taz Hot Mar 2013 #222

Are Democrats Who *GASP* Defend The Democratic Party Skraxx Mar 2013 #233

Yes they are very welcome here. That is exactly what the OP is doing, defending sabrina 1 Mar 2013 #236

Is That What The OP Is Doing? Is That What Calling For A New Party Is? Skraxx Mar 2013 #237

Yes, that is what the OP is doing. Why are YOU a Democrat? sabrina 1 Mar 2013 #238

Now You're Conducting Your Purity Test On Me? Skraxx Mar 2013 #239

I believe it was you who conducted the purity test on the OP. Since you set yourself sabrina 1 Mar 2013 #241

Such a thing will have to start with a third party, you know. MineralMan Mar 2013 #24

Bring in the Green Party Left Turn Only Mar 2013 #25

The Greens would NEVER go along Le Taz Hot Mar 2013 #221

win-win situation Left Turn Only Mar 2013 #254

And this is one of the MANY reasons they will never join the Democrats: Le Taz Hot Mar 2013 #255

Change from within Left Turn Only Mar 2013 #256

I think we should focus on 2016. ProSense Mar 2013 #27

Thomas Jefferson on political parties. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #30

^^ G_j Mar 2013 #33

Wise man. 840high Mar 2013 #36

TJ had such wisdom! Plucketeer Mar 2013 #85

So if Jefferson was alive to day ... we can probably assume that ... JoePhilly Mar 2013 #160

Only if DU membership is measured in party loyalty. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #161

DURec leftstreet Mar 2013 #35

bullshit hfojvt Mar 2013 #38

He shoots! He scores! Bake Mar 2013 #62

The Bobby Kennedy/FDR/Harry S. Truman Democratic Party ! King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #185

1972, actually Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2013 #186

My Bad, sorry. I just associate them both with Nixon. King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #191

it was more than that though hfojvt Mar 2013 #189

Those losses in the 1980s were very educational. MineralMan Mar 2013 #212

Voters did not "reject progressive candidates"--voters rejected candidates who ran lousy campaigns Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2013 #225

There was a lot of talk about the Democratic Party throwing elections back then. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #261

except that is the wrong lesson hfojvt Mar 2013 #229

yes we do d_b Mar 2013 #39

First we need to destroy the Republican party. Motown_Johnny Mar 2013 #40

A-FUCKING-MEN MotherPetrie Mar 2013 #41

The system may be broken Blue4Texas Mar 2013 #42

We need a new Rethug party, too, don't ya think? The GOP we have now is full of criminals. judesedit Mar 2013 #47

K&R forestpath Mar 2013 #48

The current Democratic party wants to raise taxes on the wealthy gravity Mar 2013 #49

Uh, not quite. Maybe you missed the letter that many in the progressive caucus won't sign. Dawgs Mar 2013 #63

We don't need to build a NEW Democratic Party. bvar22 Mar 2013 #51

It hurts my heart chervilant Mar 2013 #204

Are You Sure? gussmith Mar 2013 #53

Was that at RW central? Or when did their taxes go up to 90% nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #60

Look Further down on DU front Page gussmith Mar 2013 #108

Really...somebody made a mistake nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #124

Modern history doesn't start in 1988 or 2003. hay rick Mar 2013 #82

Yup, taxed the most since their last tax cut which was one whole Progressive dog Mar 2013 #90

History of top rates. limpyhobbler Mar 2013 #132

the President 'demanded' austerity? don't think so. spanone Mar 2013 #54

Du rec. Nt xchrom Mar 2013 #55

America never started polynomial Mar 2013 #56

You had to see it coming nineteen50 Mar 2013 #57

Close but no cigar... nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #58

yes -nt Demo_Chris Mar 2013 #73

Why new DEMOCRATIC party, and not just party? Dawgs Mar 2013 #61

Because that would probably be a TOS violation. mathematic Mar 2013 #131

It's our party. The 99% believe in traditional Democratic values. MannyGoldstein Mar 2013 #141

+1 - nt dreamnightwind Mar 2013 #246

I love my Democrats Herlong Mar 2013 #66

Of course adieu Mar 2013 #68

We Need A Paradigm Shift In The Debate colsohlibgal Mar 2013 #69

The only time the Republicans worry about the deficit octoberlib Mar 2013 #87

Republican strategy is to spend fast and furious when they are in power, then GoneFishin Mar 2013 #157

Almost all our institutions are a complete wreck. I agree that there has to be some beachhead. TheKentuckian Mar 2013 #71

That's why we need a movement. limpyhobbler Mar 2013 #136

Occupy the Democratic Party? dreamnightwind Mar 2013 #247

At this point I recommend all of the above. limpyhobbler Mar 2013 #249

No shit. jsr Mar 2013 #72

The country needs new government Loge23 Mar 2013 #74

Here's a poll: ProSense Mar 2013 #76

We need the Democratic Party of forty or fifty years ago back duffyduff Mar 2013 #77

Back then we had strong unions and their members were the majority of Cleita Mar 2013 #98

Harry Truman,.... is that you? bvar22 Mar 2013 #232

What can we do other then go to the streets. I'm already surprised that the people southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #78

the old one stopped representing our interests some time ago.... mike_c Mar 2013 #81

Fixing by tweaks is a long, difficult process, but it's all we have. Jim Lane Mar 2013 #86

We do need a new Democratic Party. valiberal26 Mar 2013 #88

I agree theKed Mar 2013 #89

I wish we'd make our tent a little smaller and send the conservadems back to the Republican Party Cleita Mar 2013 #94

A long awaited infrastucture program that is LONG overdue.... Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2013 #97

NO. We need a new Republican party, one jazzimov Mar 2013 #102

Now it is the Third Way centrists who maintain that both Parties are equally at fault Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #202

Then you go build the New Democratic Party. Drunken Irishman Mar 2013 #104

You're totally right - Talk is easy; walking the walk is not; get off your asses pattiepcomedy Mar 2013 #112

MannyGoidstein - "We expect Republicans to do this stuff." - Free Pass Again TomCADem Mar 2013 #143

Should Lincoln have fired his losing generals? MannyGoldstein Mar 2013 #171

"Manny and posts that attack the President will always get hundreds of recs." Number23 Mar 2013 #183

I don't give Republicans a pass--but we all know THEIR faults Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2013 #243

+2,882,955 (the number of votes Nader took in 2000) graham4anything Mar 2013 #152

I would be great if Dems stopped being moderate Republicans and Republicans I Cant Dance Mar 2013 #109

that's been obvious for years, at least since Clinton changed it stupidicus Mar 2013 #110

We need reform felix_numinous Mar 2013 #116

Fox News called. gulliver Mar 2013 #126

We need the old Democratic Party back. Kick out the damn conservatives. nm rhett o rick Mar 2013 #127

Actually Social security iandhr Mar 2013 #128

That's based on faked projections MannyGoldstein Mar 2013 #134

Do you have a link showing that both the CBO and the SSA is using ~8% UE rate I Cant Dance Mar 2013 #144

For example MannyGoldstein Mar 2013 #164

Nobody can predict the future, so that argument goes in circles. You oppose lifting the SS cap. Romulox Mar 2013 #219

It's the position of those ProSense Mar 2013 #227

I couldn't agree with you (or Senator Sanders) more. The arguments against are insane. nt Romulox Mar 2013 #242

You are right. The Democratic Party is lost. limpyhobbler Mar 2013 #135

The DC DEMs have stopped even paying lip service to the Party Plank. blkmusclmachine Mar 2013 #169

So, what's stopping you?...nt SidDithers Mar 2013 #137

I have a theory ... JoePhilly Mar 2013 #145

+22,198 and +4 (the number coincidentally that Nader got in New Hampshire) graham4anything Mar 2013 #153

I hear you, and I agree. I feel exactly the same about all the political parties here BelgianMadCow Mar 2013 #138

The current party would be viable if they prosecuted some war criminals just1voice Mar 2013 #139

yes, exactly, Manny RILib Mar 2013 #140

This is what I have been thinking Samantha Mar 2013 #142

Less message Board Snark - More Winning Elections alcibiades_mystery Mar 2013 #147

Thanks, Manny for Proposing this....we know how this goes.... KoKo Mar 2013 #148

This is what happens when the vast majority of the money and power is hoarded by just a few. w4rma Mar 2013 #149

I doubt voting alone will be enough limpyhobbler Mar 2013 #150

Yea mtasselin Mar 2013 #151

K&R. So true--and thanks for saying out loud! n/t Mr_Jefferson_24 Mar 2013 #154

I agree! I am so over Obama and most Democrats. emsimon33 Mar 2013 #155

Mmm, it's what's for dinner. blkmusclmachine Mar 2013 #170

Yes, many of us can remember when seniors were forced to eat dog food emsimon33 Mar 2013 #259

The party needs to go back to what it once was. MrSlayer Mar 2013 #156

you will get alot of recs from the tp trollers. DCBob Mar 2013 #158

Well, I think President Obama is a good start to build from - a template. Zax2me Mar 2013 #162

+10! (nt) reACTIONary Mar 2013 #165

Sure, not RILib Mar 2013 #195

I'm there. k and r Smarmie Doofus Mar 2013 #163

K&R blkmusclmachine Mar 2013 #166

Manny....we need SOMETHING NEW! What it will be KoKo Mar 2013 #167

Yes, the need for serious change is obvious now. woo me with science Mar 2013 #172

We need a Party that represents the people Apophis Mar 2013 #173

Third Party Manny strikes again... dionysus Mar 2013 #175

I notice 10 hours after this thread started, you just added the following- graham4anything Mar 2013 #176

In what way is it inconsistent with what I posted at noon? MannyGoldstein Mar 2013 #177

I love your posts. They are highly entertaining. Love conversing with you. graham4anything Mar 2013 #179

"We need to rebuild our party from the ground up." MannyGoldstein Mar 2013 #180

"It's the trespassers who need to vacate." woo me with science Mar 2013 #182

This line of thinking is Bullcrap copperearth Mar 2013 #184

Stick a fork in it, she's DONE! blkmusclmachine Mar 2013 #190

We are all with you, Manny Goldstein. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #193

You can't ''unrotten'' the apple, Manny. DeSwiss Mar 2013 #194

Me too... GTurck Mar 2013 #196

What we need is to get rid of the capitalism - TBF Mar 2013 #197

Unfortunately, this IS the New Democratic Party. Fuddnik Mar 2013 #199

Do you count President Obama among the "trespassers"? (nt) Nye Bevan Mar 2013 #200

A well organized third progressive/liberal party is the only way INdemo Mar 2013 #201

...by splitting the Center-Left vote? brooklynite Mar 2013 #205

Why not? It's getting hijacked anyway. Fuddnik Mar 2013 #206

You can't explain these things to ideologues... Comrade_McKenzie Mar 2013 #213

We currently have two parties jockeying to split the center-right vote. hay rick Mar 2013 #245

That's exactly what we need ProSense Mar 2013 #207

the republican party WILL iamthebandfanman Mar 2013 #208

Yeah, ProSense Mar 2013 #209

You're wasting your breath here sir. n/t Hotler Mar 2013 #203

Our expensive healthcare tied to employers abelenkpe Mar 2013 #210

I'm an Obama loyalist and I'm proud of that. Comrade_McKenzie Mar 2013 #211

+1 JustAnotherGen Mar 2013 #226

What is an Obama loyalist? rhett o rick Mar 2013 #235

It's really weird to read that isn't it? Puzzledtraveller Mar 2013 #258

Issues are too complicated for someone whose first instinct is to compromise to solve Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2013 #244

No kidding. Safetykitten Mar 2013 #214

If you aren't already, I hope you become a national delegate, Manny Wednesdays Mar 2013 #216

K & R, to be liberal is to want what our forefathers fully intended, to ensure the survival mother earth Mar 2013 #228

I agree with John2 Mar 2013 #230

@MannyGoldstein Raggaemon Mar 2013 #231

kick nt. darkangel218 Mar 2013 #240

Well said, very well said Sekhmets Daughter Mar 2013 #251

as much as I hate to imitate the GOP DonCoquixote Mar 2013 #252

kick woo me with science Mar 2013 #253

A liberal one, not a progressive one Puzzledtraveller Mar 2013 #257

Bravo! cntrfthrs Mar 2013 #260

Among all the rec's Puzzledtraveller Mar 2013 #262

Excellent post, thanks. MannyGoldstein Mar 2013 #263