General Discussion

lynne

(3,118 posts)

137. I'm rather surprised that 911 was even called -

Mon Mar 4, 2013, 05:00 PM

Mar 2013

- most nursing homes have nurses on hand and a Dr. there at least a portion of the day. They deal with death daily. It's not unusual for them to have procedures where they do not do CPR or take other extreme measures in the event of collapse of a patient.

Anyone ever done CPR on an 87 year old person? Do you know what the likely outcome is? I was taught in my CPR class - and it was confirmed by a nursing friend - that CPR on an ill and elderly person is many times not a kindness. You will almost certainly break ribs. Should you bring that person back to consciousness, they will then have to endure the pain from the rib fractures. If a rib punctures a lung, that will more than likely kill them in their older/weakened state. Either way, their quality of life will have turned to misery for whatever little time is saved for them.

The nurse and the institution made the right call in not performing CPR in this case.

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Woman dies as nurse refuses to perform CPR [View all] davidn3600 Mar 2013 OP

I saw this report earlier today and couldn't believe it. bluedigger Mar 2013 #1

What if there 840high Mar 2013 #7

That was not the reason they gave in refusing to perform CPR. bluedigger Mar 2013 #10

What kind of fucked up practice is that?! sakabatou Mar 2013 #78

This message was self-deleted by its author Scootaloo Mar 2013 #96

If there was a DNR order, emergency wouldn't have been called. n/t Tempest Mar 2013 #115

As of this morning... pipi_k Mar 2013 #120

They need to lose their license. LiberalFighter Mar 2013 #2

The licensure of the nurse, other staff, and the facility are in jeopardy pinboy3niner Mar 2013 #5

She's a nurse Dorian Gray Mar 2013 #104

Sorry, but you don't do CPR on a "dying" patient. You do it on a dead patient. n/t progressivebydesign Mar 2013 #144

No not "dead." CPR is crucial to maintain oxygenated blood flow anneboleyn Mar 2013 #148

Thank you.... Dorian Gray Mar 2013 #150

They (our local news) said most States have this "order" in Senior Facilities. glinda Mar 2013 #39

And the teabaggers were worried about death panels? LiberalFighter Mar 2013 #99

If "retirement facility" means skilled nursing facility, pipoman Mar 2013 #3

I wonder if residents had a DNR order.. HipChick Mar 2013 #4

I work in a skilled nursing facility pipoman Mar 2013 #21

A skilled nursing facility is a nursing home certified for Medicare. It includes lots of kinds of HiPointDem Mar 2013 #62

True, pipoman Mar 2013 #105

That's perfectly reasonable but if that is their policy malaise Mar 2013 #86

Good question. I've heard that if you don't want attempts at resuscitation, pnwmom Mar 2013 #93

Apparently in this case pipoman Mar 2013 #101

Good for you! pinboy3niner Mar 2013 #102

Then there should be CPR malaise Mar 2013 #106

Absolutely pinboy3niner Mar 2013 #109

I don't disagree pipoman Mar 2013 #110

The nurse did not say so. Only that she was not permitted to perform cpr anneboleyn Mar 2013 #149

From the linked story, she was in the "independent" part of the facility pinboy3niner Mar 2013 #12

Sounds odd for sure pipoman Mar 2013 #25

because...? HiPointDem Mar 2013 #13

see post 21 pipoman Mar 2013 #26

see post 62. SNF is a facility certified for medicare and does not necessarily = end of life care. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #65

True to a point..the distinction between pipoman Mar 2013 #108

The article says she was part of the "independent facility" Hassin Bin Sober Mar 2013 #16

Part of the function of a "CCRC" pipoman Mar 2013 #33

Did you (anyone) listen to the tape? I didn't see a link in this article. Hassin Bin Sober Mar 2013 #41

My grandfather and his wife (not my grandmother because it's his second marriage) davidpdx Mar 2013 #95

I thought it was just Senior Housing which is different from glinda Mar 2013 #43

Yeah, pipoman Mar 2013 #49

insurance da bear Mar 2013 #80

No ismnotwasm Mar 2013 #48

Did this elderly woman have a DNR order? Was this a licensed nurse, TwilightGardener Mar 2013 #6

Had A DNR in place H. Cromwell Mar 2013 #8

Then why was the nurse calling for rescue? Hassin Bin Sober Mar 2013 #11

That was standard 840high Mar 2013 #17

Don't you think they should clue in the rescue squad racing to get there? Hassin Bin Sober Mar 2013 #20

I think the dispatcher wasn't trained well... joeybee12 Mar 2013 #135

That's standard procedure Warpy Mar 2013 #19

the linked article does not indicate that she had a dnr. have you seen another report? if so, niyad Mar 2013 #36

Link below roxy1234 Mar 2013 #98

The LA Times and a local station said there was no DNR. SunSeeker Mar 2013 #129

You made a good point roxy1234 Mar 2013 #133

thank you. People LOVE to get outraged about everything. nt progressivebydesign Mar 2013 #145

Since she had a DNR, they should have moved her to her room SoCalDem Mar 2013 #89

Not Only is It Legal RobinA Mar 2013 #103

This message was self-deleted by its author Tempest Mar 2013 #116

If I was 87 and in a nursing home nobodyspecial Mar 2013 #9

This is a stupid story. DURHAM D Mar 2013 #14

I would have tripped the code team Warpy Mar 2013 #15

That makes the most sense. Hassin Bin Sober Mar 2013 #23

I've seen things like that Warpy Mar 2013 #31

There's nothing like that wet pop of ribs breaking on an elderly patient. *sigh* n/t X_Digger Mar 2013 #52

Yeah, and you can feel it all the way up your arm. Warpy Mar 2013 #55

That is sad Major Nikon Mar 2013 #73

My Dad was also revived with a DNR in place. aquart Mar 2013 #158

Absent a DNR, and assuming the caller was an RN or LPN/LVN, then TwilightGardener Mar 2013 #32

Not necessarily Warpy Mar 2013 #34

I'm surprised that it would be legal to not allow staff to respond as they've TwilightGardener Mar 2013 #47

Nurses and other BLS certified people have never had an absolute Warpy Mar 2013 #50

I'm not saying she wasn't in a tough spot. I don't necessarily think TwilightGardener Mar 2013 #56

That was exactly my question regarding whether a nurse has a professional duty R B Garr Mar 2013 #140

There was no DNR, and the nurse would have good samaritan immunity from assault charges. SunSeeker Mar 2013 #76

The nurse was only authorized to help those who pay extra $$$$ to be in the assisted living section. SunSeeker Mar 2013 #18

Not going to happen if a DNR is in place. DURHAM D Mar 2013 #22

Maybe the next lawsuit will be the person killed in the resulting car accident... Hassin Bin Sober Mar 2013 #29

Independent living people are frequent fliers pipoman Mar 2013 #42

Yes. I've know plenty of healthy high eighties folks who wanted to keep on living. Hassin Bin Sober Mar 2013 #46

The home admitted its policy is to not touch ANYONE in the independent living part of the home. SunSeeker Mar 2013 #40

They can have a policy like that legally as long as they are up front about it. pnwmom Mar 2013 #91

Doubtful. That nurse had ethical obligations as well. SunSeeker Mar 2013 #121

I'm not defending the home, but the daughter did say that she thinks pnwmom Mar 2013 #141

Why do you say that? My MIL lived in assisted living and had a DNR in place. pnwmom Mar 2013 #90

My comment was in response to the last sentence. DURHAM D Mar 2013 #111

If there is a DNR in place nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #44

CPR success is usually low, but not a reason to not even try. SunSeeker Mar 2013 #54

As I said, the difference is truly a DNR or not nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #57

There was no DNR, but the real issue is the home's inhuman policy. SunSeeker Mar 2013 #66

Absent a DNR the policy violates nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #68

That's why the nurse's callousness is so shocking pinboy3niner Mar 2013 #74

I don't think it is that shocking nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #127

The issue of the propriety of this policy does not hang on whether there is a DNR. SunSeeker Mar 2013 #79

What part of we agree is missed here? nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #124

while eating? and they couldn't even touch her to check for obstruction? now *that* would be HiPointDem Mar 2013 #82

My Dad had CPR at 92 vankuria Mar 2013 #112

there is a difference sweetapogee Mar 2013 #136

THIS is the evil truth. The elderly without $$$ anneboleyn Mar 2013 #151

As I Read H. Cromwell Mar 2013 #24

And the title of it starts with the word "elderly". Which changes one's initial impression KittyWampus Mar 2013 #28

There is no mention of a DNR order in the report pinboy3niner Mar 2013 #30

You must be reading a different article than I. bluedigger Mar 2013 #37

There is no mention of the DNR anywhere in the article nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #38

My mom was in assisted living and we had a DNR on her for years. kestrel91316 Mar 2013 #61

Yup, I know that in San Diego at times they still call paramedics nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #64

Yes, EXTREMELY misleading, if there's a DNR, the nurse is not EMPOWERED to resus. sibelian Mar 2013 #81

it didn't say anything of the sort. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #83

The Actual Title Is ELDERLY Woman Dies As Nurse Refuses to Perfom CPR. Why Was "Elderly" Left Out? KittyWampus Mar 2013 #27

What difference does it make? morningfog Mar 2013 #35

The article was also "updated" at some unspecified time. . . Journeyman Mar 2013 #51

more crappy journalism SmileyRose Mar 2013 #45

Where do you read that she had DNR orders? SunSeeker Mar 2013 #60

Cracked ribs, CPR and the Elderly Samurai_Writer Mar 2013 #138

I'm thinking some people need to go to jail over this. There was a duty to this patient bubbayugga Mar 2013 #53

There is no way to know if CPR would have saved this patient. TwilightGardener Mar 2013 #58

We do know that nothing improves your chances of surviving bubbayugga Mar 2013 #63

I don't think it rises to the criminal--no INTENTIONAL harm was done TwilightGardener Mar 2013 #67

I think it does and I think the policy was pretty intentional. bubbayugga Mar 2013 #69

You are saying that CPR is 100% successful KurtNYC Mar 2013 #100

No help is likely 100% fatal. A person should be given a chance, even if very slim. anneboleyn Mar 2013 #153

I didn't say that and broken ribs are better than death. bubbayugga Mar 2013 #159

According to a local station there was no DNR dkf Mar 2013 #59

Someone posted a link to a story where she did have one. n/t Tempest Mar 2013 #117

LINK? pinboy3niner Mar 2013 #122

It's up above in the thread snooper2 Mar 2013 #130

Where? You might at least give a Post number. pinboy3niner Mar 2013 #131

well I did half the work for you LOL, post 98 snooper2 Mar 2013 #132

Both are quoting the same local station so one has it wrong. dkf Mar 2013 #134

The daughter confirms that her mother had no DNR order pinboy3niner Mar 2013 #162

I did hospice care for my wife for 12 days a couple of years ago. jonthebru Mar 2013 #70

not the case. i have known several women who were vigorous, as in taking daily walks around the HiPointDem Mar 2013 #72

This facility is one of those semi-fancy places that have different levels of care: independent HiPointDem Mar 2013 #71

. blkmusclmachine Mar 2013 #75

WTF a2liberal Mar 2013 #77

Weird, huh? None of the articles said there was a DNR. Ever. SunSeeker Mar 2013 #84

And this is why I am building my parents a private apartment in my own home Sen. Walter Sobchak Mar 2013 #85

we HAVE to accept death. sometimes it's your time. pansypoo53219 Mar 2013 #87

You believe that asphyxiation by choking on your food is a "good" exit? (nt) w4rma Mar 2013 #88

Technically, she wasn't being "cared for" at this facility because she was in the independent living pnwmom Mar 2013 #92

The daughter's opinion, according to the reporter, is that if her mother had received CPR, pnwmom Mar 2013 #94

Maybe daughter wanted to collect on the inheritance. n/t Tempest Mar 2013 #118

Few people that age are in excellent health. pnwmom Mar 2013 #142

More than you think Tempest Mar 2013 #152

87 is the new 67? What a crock. pnwmom Mar 2013 #161

Why is this news? This happens every day across the country. mainer Mar 2013 #97

I am with you. DURHAM D Mar 2013 #107

The nurse did not use her judgment. She was following the home's "no help" policy. SunSeeker Mar 2013 #123

at first glance - where are the George Zimmerman defenders? Capt. Obvious Mar 2013 #113

Bakersfield prides itself on its friendly people, but this is how they really are. Tempest Mar 2013 #114

This is the only thing that expresses how I feel about this: Ken Burch Mar 2013 #119

Her own daughter is reportedly satisfied with the care her mother received. LisaL Mar 2013 #125

This is a problem? 99Forever Mar 2013 #126

Wha? Zax2me Mar 2013 #160

Was the nurse qualified to perform CPR? (nt) Recursion Mar 2013 #128

I'm rather surprised that 911 was even called - lynne Mar 2013 #137

Yes, I have performed CPR on an 87 year old man Samurai_Writer Mar 2013 #139

So when should a person not receive CPR? At 80? 70? I am not sure what you are suggesting anneboleyn Mar 2013 #155

It's not a particular age... Samurai_Writer Mar 2013 #156

MOre to the story, of course, but the "outrage machine" media wants you pissed. progressivebydesign Mar 2013 #143

I am trying like hell... 1983law Mar 2013 #146

I agree -- it is a lack of "simple humanity" as you say. The callous attitude anneboleyn Mar 2013 #154

I have never heard of a facility like a nursing home to have a policy and-justice-for-all Mar 2013 #147

Surely to goodness there was a damned AED in a facility like that. Was that even used? rateyes Mar 2013 #157

She was NOT a NURSE magical thyme Mar 2013 #163

I've been wondering about that Bay Boy Mar 2013 #164

later articles in MSM corrected some of the misinformation magical thyme Mar 2013 #165