General Discussion

Ken Burch

(50,254 posts)

66. Our leaders weren't sincere about opposing apartheid.

Wed Mar 6, 2013, 08:17 AM

Mar 2013

If they had, they would never have insisted that a post-apartheid government agree to an IMF austerity program to pay off the debts of their just-defeated oppressors.

And it's rich that you'd mention East Timor, since Indonesia only controlled that country because Henry Kissinger made sure they did...it's meaningless for one U.S. administration to end an oppression that a previous U.S. administration caused-especially since we gave no guarantees that we wouldn't pull a Kissinger again in the future.

Fine, a few small things were done...small things at best...none outweighed the coups, the destabilization campaigns, the trade deals designed solely to benefit our corporations.

We could do better than this. We could have a policy towards the world based solely on good. Why not try that? Why not admit that "our national interests" aren't the interests of anyone but the rich?

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Other than the European theatre of World War II, can you name any MAJOR examples [View all] Ken Burch Mar 2013 OP

The Civil War comes to mind Sedona Mar 2013 #1

That was internal. Ken Burch Mar 2013 #3

"The rest of the world." WinkyDink Mar 2013 #18

Civil war was not fought for the poor, or the slaves, or any other "little people". n/t Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #37

Clinton tried the stop the Balkan Genocide MrScorpio Mar 2013 #2

All Clinton really achieved with that was to convince "liberals" Ken Burch Mar 2013 #4

The difference was that Clinton tried to work within the International Community� MrScorpio Mar 2013 #5

In the end, the people of the Balkans didn't gain from the Nato bombings. Ken Burch Mar 2013 #6

The problem with citing any instance where war is used for a particular purpose� MrScorpio Mar 2013 #10

But that wasn't the point of your question Nevernose Mar 2013 #11

People of Bosnia and Kosovo would disagree with you on that one. geek tragedy Mar 2013 #13

and if not for the bombings DonCoquixote Mar 2013 #49

I think the bombing helped the people to stand up and overthrow Milosevic madokie Mar 2013 #61

"Clinton tried to work within the International Community" is false green for victory Mar 2013 #48

+100 HiPointDem Mar 2013 #53

Thanks for that. That is a great find. Ken Burch Mar 2013 #55

"No evidence of genocide was found by the FBI and UN investigators after the war." Not true. pampango Mar 2013 #60

didn't we also bomb the Chinese embassy "by mistake" in that war? NoMoreWarNow Mar 2013 #69

The ICTY ruled Srebrenica was genocide. The FBI investigated war crimes in Kosovo hack89 Mar 2013 #111

are you talking about yugoslavia? HiPointDem Mar 2013 #50

Here: ProSense Mar 2013 #7

It doesn't matter who you nominate to the World Bank Ken Burch Mar 2013 #8

That wasn't exactly the point of the entire post, was it? n/t ProSense Mar 2013 #9

Not at all...and thanks for posting that ProSense! Cha Mar 2013 #26

LOL. cliffordu Mar 2013 #42

No kidding at all. The World Bank is a moral dead loss. Ken Burch Mar 2013 #47

You've got some support from the Texas GOP on that. pampango Mar 2013 #85

What the Texas GOP says doesn't matter. Ken Burch Mar 2013 #86

I don't agree. What they say matters because it is usually wrong. pampango Mar 2013 #92

It was FDR's idea, but it never worked as FDR intended. Ken Burch Mar 2013 #95

Thanks for posting that, Prosense - cliffordu Mar 2013 #41

what a fucking joke. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #51

Yeah, facts are a "fucking joke." ProSense Mar 2013 #80

WW II wasn't really about the poor or dispossessed either. Arctic Dave Mar 2013 #12

It at least stood AGAINST an anti-worker regime in its fight to control Europe. Ken Burch Mar 2013 #14

I'm sure there are a lot of people in line for an apology for the US indifference Arctic Dave Mar 2013 #15

You think the US fighting the Japanese does not apply? MicaelS Mar 2013 #16

The fight against Japan was largely a trade war. Ken Burch Mar 2013 #17

And because they bombed Pearl Harbor. BlueCheese Mar 2013 #35

Tell that to the 35 million Chinese that were slaughtered, you cliffordu Mar 2013 #43

Before the Japanese came in, they were being slaughtered by Chaing Kai-Shek. Ken Burch Mar 2013 #57

So it's all the same, huh? RZM Mar 2013 #81

The U.S. didn't fight Japan over Japan's Asian atrocities WHATSOEVER. WinkyDink Mar 2013 #19

? cthulu2016 Mar 2013 #21

This is a good point - the USA's actions up to that point were non-aggressive muriel_volestrangler Mar 2013 #59

As opposed to all those other countries! cthulu2016 Mar 2013 #20

Hee hee. Zax2me Mar 2013 #22

Other countries do horrible things, but none claim that their nations have a special claim Ken Burch Mar 2013 #23

really? dsc Mar 2013 #25

Bwah! Recursion Mar 2013 #76

No. nt raouldukelives Mar 2013 #24

The poor and dispossessed generally don't benefit from war bhikkhu Mar 2013 #27

Which makes the case for far less war, agreed. Ken Burch Mar 2013 #28

Why limit it to the European theater? Art_from_Ark Mar 2013 #29

I think the war against the Japanese Empire was just, but as you have already dealt with that issue apocalypsehow Mar 2013 #30

I wasn't talking just about the use of force. Ken Burch Mar 2013 #31

Those are good questions, and I'll be the first to say I don't have all the answers, just opinions. apocalypsehow Mar 2013 #33

Bosnia. Kosovo. nt bluestate10 Mar 2013 #32

I think some of our other wars or conflicts were just, or justifiable... BlueCheese Mar 2013 #34

Big Ken ignores all the truths you just named. cliffordu Mar 2013 #40

I don't hate...and why the personal enmity? Ken Burch Mar 2013 #65

Because your OP is a bogus posit cliffordu Mar 2013 #83

I do. I don't have to love what our leaders have done to the world to prove that. Ken Burch Mar 2013 #88

Yet, you say something hostile to the direction of this country cliffordu Mar 2013 #91

I don't have to prove my love of the country to you. Ken Burch Mar 2013 #96

YOU said you loved the country in a post above this one. .... cliffordu Mar 2013 #97

I do love the country...but there's no point in starting OP's on that theme Ken Burch Mar 2013 #98

To quote you: cliffordu Mar 2013 #99

Here is my notion of true patriotism Ken Burch Mar 2013 #100

I never implied...to quote you, again: cliffordu Mar 2013 #102

I've done posts and OP's that praised Obama on some things. Ken Burch Mar 2013 #103

Again: Not demanding anything, cliffordu Mar 2013 #105

I just said I did. Ken Burch Mar 2013 #106

This conversation is not harassment cliffordu Mar 2013 #107

We have a long and bloody history of fighting against the poor, dispossessed and working people. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #36

The Indian wars, the Spanish-American war, the Mexican-American war... politicat Mar 2013 #38

Didn't say they were...and your post largely supports my basic view Ken Burch Mar 2013 #45

It is high time we relinquished our booty from the Spanish-American War AngryAmish Mar 2013 #79

Golly gosh, cliffordu Mar 2013 #39

I don't "hate America" Ken Burch Mar 2013 #46

Kosovo leaps to mind. N.T. Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2013 #44

I can't think of any example of any imperial power fighting for the poor or dispossessed. In all HiPointDem Mar 2013 #52

We weren't SUPPOSED to be an imperial power. Ken Burch Mar 2013 #54

we were an imperial power from the beginning. first, we were part of other people's empires, HiPointDem Mar 2013 #56

It was inevitable that we would be The2ndWheel Mar 2013 #63

Not in WWII, either Spider Jerusalem Mar 2013 #58

Actually, that's pretty much how foreign policy works EVERYWHERE cali Mar 2013 #62

Isolating South Africa, pushing for peace in Northern Ireland... Recursion Mar 2013 #64

Our leaders weren't sincere about opposing apartheid. Ken Burch Mar 2013 #66

Ah, you have a window into our leaders' souls! Recursion Mar 2013 #67

Not their souls, their actions. Ken Burch Mar 2013 #70

Also, SALT, Somalia, East Timor, and Northern Ireland aren't "major" to you? Recursion Mar 2013 #68

Nothing got better in Somalia. SALT didn't stop the arms race(or even come close) Ken Burch Mar 2013 #72

You're moving the goalposts. BlueCheese Mar 2013 #84

Actually, no...we didn't fight for "the dispossessed", we fought against Aidid. Ken Burch Mar 2013 #87

Somalia was under Clinton. BlueCheese Mar 2013 #89

I also rewrote my OP to make it clear that I wasn't talking solely about the use of military force. Ken Burch Mar 2013 #90

The Peace Core WCGreen Mar 2013 #71

Way too underfunded, designed so that most people can't even join it. Ken Burch Mar 2013 #73

There has to be a motive behind any action taken by nation states WCGreen Mar 2013 #74

I admire the volunteers...most of whom were radicalized and came home and spoke truth Ken Burch Mar 2013 #75

Yes, during Reagan's Central America interventions, returned Peace Corps volunteers Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2013 #82

Here... talkingmime Mar 2013 #77

Korea 4Q2u2 Mar 2013 #78

I second this. Who in his right mind wishes he lived on the other side of the NK border? dimbear Mar 2013 #101

Interesting Question...and hope folks will post some answers KoKo Mar 2013 #93

OK...occasionally, our policies have done some good in the world. Ken Burch Mar 2013 #94

This original post and most of the responses are ridiculous. gordianot Mar 2013 #104

Yup, human behavior and it's thirst for power Javaman Mar 2013 #109

All wars are fought over resources or the want of them... Javaman Mar 2013 #108

Yours is one of the few posts here that is right on target. gordianot Mar 2013 #110