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hughee99

(16,113 posts)

190. After years of TV watching (where it almost always seems to work),

Reply to pnwmom (Original post)

Wed Mar 6, 2013, 06:53 PM

Mar 2013

I'll admit I'm surprised by the number, but if CPR doesn't succeed, are the broken ribs really a big issue?

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CPR can crack ribs and only succeeds longterm in restarting a heart 20% of the time -- [View all] pnwmom Mar 2013 OP

How about the Shocker Pad Box? MADem Mar 2013 #1

One of the doctors addressed that, too. He's only 66, though -- much younger than the CA lady. pnwmom Mar 2013 #3

I don't think the defibrillators work if the heart is stopped. FarCenter Mar 2013 #5

But a heart could be beating irregularly and very slowly -- pnwmom Mar 2013 #8

No. An electronic shock device can detect bradycardia (slow heart beat) and respond appropriately. Aristus Mar 2013 #61

A defibrillator doesn't start the heart, it stops it. Warpy Mar 2013 #102

I have to say, I look askance at this "Let 'em die" guidance. MADem Mar 2013 #112

I don't have a single elderly relative who relished the idea of life so much pnwmom Mar 2013 #120

what your family wants is irrelevant. and the fact that *this* woman had a DNR is irrelevant to HiPointDem Mar 2013 #127

Well, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it's fine and dandy MADem Mar 2013 #134

Perhaps it is true that pnwmom Mar 2013 #210

Yet this 66 year old doctor WANTS emergency aid. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #128

Just a few weeks ago I administered chest compressions marybourg Mar 2013 #2

I'm happy it worked out for you! pnwmom Mar 2013 #4

If my heart stops, I'll take the 20% of survival and broken ribs aikoaiko Mar 2013 #6

I would say that for me at my age now but I wouldn't at 87. pnwmom Mar 2013 #10

Especially if it includes more pain and suffering. n/t cui bono Mar 2013 #43

It depends entirely on health--I know people in their eighties and nineties who are still vigorous. MADem Mar 2013 #115

I'm with you. WHEN I change my mind I'll say so elehhhhna Mar 2013 #50

Could it be . . . Brigid Mar 2013 #7

I read that in CA an assisted living place has to have a special license to administer any kind pnwmom Mar 2013 #13

i doubt it; it was a facility with 3 levels of care & took public funding. ergo, it could give HiPointDem Mar 2013 #62

You're wrong. You can't take staff away from the licensed facility pnwmom Mar 2013 #81

It's the *same* facility, providing 3 levels of care on the same campus. we have similar facilities HiPointDem Mar 2013 #99

I think it is wrong for the facility to take that stance liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #15

CA law requires a special license for a retirement facility to offer any kind of medical care. pnwmom Mar 2013 #17

why can't they get the required licence? liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #23

Then it would be an assisted living facility, not a retirement home. pnwmom Mar 2013 #26

If you have residence in their 80's they are going to need medical assistance. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #27

Lots of people live independently in their own homes in their 80's without medical assistance. pnwmom Mar 2013 #32

I still think retirement homes should have CPR certified staff and should offer CPR to those who liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #36

As I said, that's the case for WA retirement homes. pnwmom Mar 2013 #39

This message was self-deleted by its author HiPointDem Mar 2013 #114

Completely false, though you keep repeating it. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #116

as for your claim that it's different in wash, it looks like this corp has the same policy here: HiPointDem Mar 2013 #121

If you want the increased services you have to move to that section. dkf Mar 2013 #205

they don't need a license to give emergency aid. that is corporate policy, and this poster is HiPointDem Mar 2013 #126

CPR is not medical care Thor_MN Mar 2013 #52

CA law treats it as medical care and requires an license for it to be administered. pnwmom Mar 2013 #78

Care to prove that a random person adminstering CPR had knowledge of the DNR order? Thor_MN Mar 2013 #93

bullshit. you keep repeating that california law forbids independent living facilities to give HiPointDem Mar 2013 #117

that's rather misleading. every assisted living or skilled nursing facility is licensed to give HiPointDem Mar 2013 #63

What is misleading? The woman lived in independent living, not assisted living or skilled nursing pnwmom Mar 2013 #80

All the staff works for the same corporation. Anyone can give cpr in an emergency. No criminal HiPointDem Mar 2013 #100

No, employees of a non-licensed independent care facility in CA may not give CPR. pnwmom Mar 2013 #103

Employees can't because the facility forbids it. The family's wishes in this case make a great deal HiPointDem Mar 2013 #108

The law could easily be changed to require it and that's what should happen. n/t pnwmom Mar 2013 #110

The law does not forbid it. It's the facility's *interpretation* of the law. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #111

no. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #139

I think it is their choice. enlightenment Mar 2013 #9

I agree. n/t pnwmom Mar 2013 #14

I thought that another reason to administer CPR was to circulate oxygen oregonjen Mar 2013 #11

Yes, in the hopes that doctors could get the heart working again. pnwmom Mar 2013 #19

You are correct. My cpr instructor discussed a case where a group took turns performing cpr FSogol Mar 2013 #55

'let them die'. they're old and useless. i'd say that's the general sentiment. however, i guess HiPointDem Mar 2013 #65

I was a CPR instructor for EMS personnel nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #86

Upthread I posted a link to a situation where a bunch of people kept going for ninety six minutes. MADem Mar 2013 #195

rather vigorously promoting it. to the extent of pushing false information and straw men. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #201

Let them die. Why risk broken ribs? Buzz Clik Mar 2013 #12

How about "let them choose" before they're in that situation? pnwmom Mar 2013 #16

Sounds like a wise plan. Buzz Clik Mar 2013 #18

Same here. Mom posted her wishes on the wall by her phone; mother in law would never ever discuss... Hekate Mar 2013 #56

Sorry you had to go through that. pnwmom Mar 2013 #89

Had a terrible fight with a friend over the issue of the feeding tube Hekate Mar 2013 #94

"First, do no harm." bemildred Mar 2013 #20

What dogma? pnwmom Mar 2013 #22

The dogma that says you must give CPR to the elderly to "revive" them. bemildred Mar 2013 #25

I know of a woman who died at the age of 105 pnwmom Mar 2013 #29

Yes. bemildred Mar 2013 #31

It's not just money Warpy Mar 2013 #107

How horrible! No CPR--standard? The "default?" Do you really mean that? MADem Mar 2013 #138

Yeah, I'm 68 and I really mean that. bemildred Mar 2013 #150

Well, if "no CPR" is the default, someone else IS deciding when you die. MADem Mar 2013 #188

Have you ever cared for an 85 year old with a chest full of broken ribs Warpy Mar 2013 #177

I'm sorry. I just don't buy that logic. I think it's pretty awful, actually. MADem Mar 2013 #186

You might have read my whole post, you know Warpy Mar 2013 #187

Well, I did read your post, and not every case--see the examples I provided, that you did not read-- MADem Mar 2013 #189

and i know a woman who died at 98 and spent the last years of her life taking a daily walk around HiPointDem Mar 2013 #66

So . . . pnwmom Mar 2013 #76

I agree, every case is individual. That's why the blanket policy that no emergency aid will be HiPointDem Mar 2013 #101

Why is it wrong if residents are fully informed and consenting, as this woman's family said she was? pnwmom Mar 2013 #109

It's fine if they are. It's fine in this woman's case. It's not fine to have a blanket policy HiPointDem Mar 2013 #122

I agree--the "default" should be to give care, not to refuse to give it. MADem Mar 2013 #143

Reminds me of my neighbor's mother. Just the same, minus the driving. MADem Mar 2013 #141

"Revive" them. Yeah, I'm sure they're pissed off about being "alive." GaYellowDawg Mar 2013 #136

So I hit a nerve, eh? nt bemildred Mar 2013 #149

A consequence of posting something so thoroughly unfeeling. GaYellowDawg Mar 2013 #153

Name calling isn't much of an argument either. nt bemildred Mar 2013 #154

the poster didn't call you any names. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #155

I didn't say he did. I said he made no argument, he just used insults. nt bemildred Mar 2013 #156

he made an argument. his argument was that your scare quotes around 'revive,' as though HiPointDem Mar 2013 #159

Those are "bullshit" quotes. When the "success" rate is 20% for an otherwise harmful treatment, bemildred Mar 2013 #161

the success rate is 20% for everyone. so i presume you are against cpr for anyone, since the HiPointDem Mar 2013 #163

Presume away, I don't give a shit what you presume. Go read post #157. nt bemildred Mar 2013 #164

Here, read this: bemildred Mar 2013 #162

i read it. what golden nuggets am i supposed to draw from it? it pushes a red herring, in HiPointDem Mar 2013 #166

The corporations policiies differed by facility. There were nearby facilites where CPR is done. bemildred Mar 2013 #167

bullshit. you don't even know the basic facts of the case. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #169

So the families statement means nothing to you? Got it. bemildred Mar 2013 #170

The family's statement has nothing to do with the issue in this case, which is not the fate of this HiPointDem Mar 2013 #172

I will talk about any issue I choose here. bemildred Mar 2013 #173

it's obviously is not your only issue, as you've posted that you'd like to see "no cpr" as HiPointDem Mar 2013 #174

Yeah, I like to kill puppies too: bemildred Mar 2013 #179

By the way, can you post a link to the statement you claim I made? bemildred Mar 2013 #180

In response to this post: HiPointDem Mar 2013 #181

Ah, I meant for me, no physicians should not make those decisions Edit: unilaterally. nt bemildred Mar 2013 #182

i accept that you may have meant only yourself. however, the question is about the standard HiPointDem Mar 2013 #183

Yes, that's what it says there. bemildred Mar 2013 #184

i see a great deal wrong with the largest corporate provider of 'senior living' requiring that you HiPointDem Mar 2013 #203

But that is not the case. There is no such requirement, nobody is compelled. nt bemildred Mar 2013 #207

The family's comments shouldn't be controlling anyway. This woman lived independently. MADem Mar 2013 #197

You can break every rib I've got if it might save my life. Codeine Mar 2013 #21

How many 80 or 90 somethings do you think would say that, pnwmom Mar 2013 #24

The two 80-90s I know. Hatchling Mar 2013 #59

Then they should be glad that it was this woman's decision to live in this place pnwmom Mar 2013 #77

"beats the shit outta dying" jberryhill Mar 2013 #28

You have to think about the underlying cause. I tell my hospice patients and their mucifer Mar 2013 #30

These issues are so complicated and that's why pnwmom Mar 2013 #34

yet this corporation has a BLANKET POLICY that decides for everyone. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #124

I also heard that your body fights any respiratory machine. cui bono Mar 2013 #45

Yes, they usually have to sedate people at least at first. mucifer Mar 2013 #47

Yeah, and sometimes even paralyze! cui bono Mar 2013 #53

To get the tube down we used paralytic s nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #105

Just listened to that a few days ago. It really gave me a lot to think about on this subject. DeschutesRiver Mar 2013 #168

I had to do the Heimlich at home this morning before work. postulater Mar 2013 #33

The weird thing is that I've done that myself. Codeine Mar 2013 #35

Wow. pnwmom Mar 2013 #37

Not sure if you're kidding or not, but I used to have to watch my dog eat as he had cui bono Mar 2013 #51

Not kidding. Just lucky I was there or she'd be dead now. postulater Mar 2013 #73

My heart stopped 9 times Kingofalldems Mar 2013 #38

Yay! pnwmom Mar 2013 #40

After reading th OP I am even more amazed that I am still around. Kingofalldems Mar 2013 #71

You were definitely a success story, and doctors and nurses never become immune pnwmom Mar 2013 #75

I'm glad CPR worked for you. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #48

I know from experience that when your heart stops Kingofalldems Mar 2013 #69

Yeah, but are you 87 years old? JustABozoOnThisBus Mar 2013 #148

That's why 80% of doctors DO NOT want CPR performed on them. cui bono Mar 2013 #41

How can you possibly know if the medical crisis you are going through is fatal? liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #44

There are statistics as to the success of certain prodedures, and that's why the doctors answered cui bono Mar 2013 #46

If you are suffering from terminal cancer you HOPE it might be fatal. pnwmom Mar 2013 #83

link to that study, please? no, not to the radio show, to the study. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #68

Frontline had a program called Living Old a few years back Revanchist Mar 2013 #42

Thanks for the link. pnwmom Mar 2013 #84

When my FIL was in a nursing home they had to ask us about a DNR Hekate Mar 2013 #49

when my mother was frail, ill and 94 years old, I refused to have her transferred to another CTyankee Mar 2013 #54

people should make their own decisions about what they want, and review them yearly. the HiPointDem Mar 2013 #72

No, of course not. My mother was extremely old and frail at that point. She was essentially starving CTyankee Mar 2013 #74

I agree, you did the right thing by your mother. But my larger point is that not everyone living in HiPointDem Mar 2013 #98

I never said it should be everyone's decision. depends on circumstances... CTyankee Mar 2013 #131

i didn't mean to imply that you did. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #132

The family said they and the woman knew what the policy was, and she wanted to die a natural death. pnwmom Mar 2013 #90

I understand this family said the woman didn't want cpr. I did not see any statement that she HiPointDem Mar 2013 #97

Even making your own decision ahead of time isn't always adequate. A DNR doesn't guarantee... JVS Mar 2013 #175

another reason blanket policies made by corporations = wrong HiPointDem Mar 2013 #176

If you have a living will or a health care proxy you can direct a DNR order. n/t pnwmom Mar 2013 #82

Putting the discussion to the side, reflection Mar 2013 #165

I just turned 50, feel free to break my ribs. Thor_MN Mar 2013 #57

I've known about this for a long time ... but ... REP Mar 2013 #58

Right -- every decision depends on the person and circumstances. n/t pnwmom Mar 2013 #91

Absolutely. More information = more informed decisions REP Mar 2013 #160

An anti-CPR thread. WilliamPitt Mar 2013 #60

Simply stunning. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #64

It's not an "anti-CPR thread. LisaL Mar 2013 #67

Thanks, Lisa, that's what it is. pnwmom Mar 2013 #87

There are a lot of posters on this site and on this thread who don't want anyone to make choices. AnotherMcIntosh Mar 2013 #104

And I think a lot of them might be younger people pnwmom Mar 2013 #106

I am not a younger person. I am an older person who has watched many people die and works HiPointDem Mar 2013 #123

I am no spring chicken myself, and I have a lot of "geezer" friends/acquaintances. MADem Mar 2013 #144

I agree that this meme is being shopped, and that's why this thread pisses me off so much. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #146

I'm thinking my older friends will prefer to just stay in their homes and rely on the "I've fallen MADem Mar 2013 #147

actually, i think everyone is fine with people making choices, but against corporations making HiPointDem Mar 2013 #113

"everyone is fine with people making choices"? How could you think that if you've read the posts? AnotherMcIntosh Mar 2013 #118

show me the post where someone says "they should give cpr even if the person has a dnr order". HiPointDem Mar 2013 #119

In this case the daughter confirmed that her mother did not have a DNR order pinboy3niner Mar 2013 #129

IN THIS CASE. The facility is lying when it says the nurse did not understand their policies HiPointDem Mar 2013 #130

If that's what they want, why should CPR be forced on them? LisaL Mar 2013 #198

where do you see me saying anything like that? HiPointDem Mar 2013 #199

Um, no. GaYellowDawg Mar 2013 #137

What???? It's an everybody-needs-to-make-their-own-decision thread. pnwmom Mar 2013 #85

If CPR does not succeed broken ribs do not matter. MineralMan Mar 2013 #70

Her family says she didn't want intervention. LisaL Mar 2013 #79

If they'd done that to MY mother after she'd said not to, she'd have sued them blind afterward Hekate Mar 2013 #95

I was not there, nor do I know that woman's wishes. MineralMan Mar 2013 #152

The person in cardiac arrest was in a position to say what she wanted pnwmom Mar 2013 #88

But did she do that? I don't know. MineralMan Mar 2013 #151

Her family said on Tuesday she was fully aware of the policies of the independent living facility pnwmom Mar 2013 #185

I remember reading a very touching essay about CPR in a nursing journal many years ago. Silver Swan Mar 2013 #92

no, it's not done to 'comfort' the survivors. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #142

The system makes it impossible for anyone to know the truth kickysnana Mar 2013 #96

20% is better than 0%. Apophis Mar 2013 #125

Thanks, but for serious advice like this, I'll trust my own doctor... Violet_Crumble Mar 2013 #133

Well, what the fuck? GaYellowDawg Mar 2013 #135

+100. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #140

+1 nt MADem Mar 2013 #145

turn off the lights datasuspect Mar 2013 #158

This woman wanted to die naturally. LisaL Mar 2013 #196

But she *had it* done on her, by the EMTs. So apparently this facility didn't bother to tell them HiPointDem Mar 2013 #204

Coincidentally, I just listened to a podcast covering the same thing DeschutesRiver Mar 2013 #157

Thanks for your link and post, DR. pnwmom Mar 2013 #194

Thanks for that link as well re family statement. Although these threads have Terry Schiavo aspects DeschutesRiver Mar 2013 #208

In WA state we copied that law of yours and so that's an option here, too. pnwmom Mar 2013 #209

I did not know that WA had done the same DeschutesRiver Mar 2013 #211

If I'm dead, I won't care about cracked ribs. Go for it! JVS Mar 2013 #171

If you're 87 and it only gives you a couple more weeks of life, you might regret it. pnwmom Mar 2013 #192

and you might not. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #202

Hell yes. I'll take a 1 in 5 chance over no chance, anytime and anywhere. (nt) w4rma Mar 2013 #178

Me, too. But I won't want it when I'm 87. n/t pnwmom Mar 2013 #191

After years of TV watching (where it almost always seems to work), hughee99 Mar 2013 #190

They're only an issue if you would rather have a relatively peaceful death than a violent one. n/t pnwmom Mar 2013 #193

hogwash. there is no guarantee of a peaceful death. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #200

People need to realize that if you are frail, CPR is very painful. dkf Mar 2013 #206

Even less than that... Javaman Mar 2013 #212