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HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)

109. The paper those statistics are taken from actually doesn't say that 3% wind up in a 'vegetative

Fri Mar 8, 2013, 06:34 AM

Mar 2013

state'. It doesn't say anything like that so far as I can tell from the abstract.

The paper cited for the CPR claim is this one (none of the others have anything to do with CPR survival rates):

Prehospital epinephrine use and survival among patients with out-of-hospital cardiac arrest.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22436956

It's a study done in Japan comparing use of ephinephrine v. no epinephrine in "out of hospital" cardiac arrest treated by EMTs.

I can't even figure out where the numbers in the graphic come from. It claims the study was of 95,072 subjects with 3% surviving with a good outcome and 3% surviving 'in a vegetative state'.

But the total number of subjects was 417,159 of which 402158 were in the 'no epinephrine' group.

The only thing close to the "3.0%" is the finding that in the no epinephrine group, 3.1% survived with "good or moderate cerebral performance" (Cerebral Performance Score of 1 or 2) and 3.1% survived with "no, mild, or moderate neurological disability" (Overall Performance Score of 1 or 2).

Neither of these categories equals "vegetative state".

So this claim just seems false.

I agree, though -- seems like a lot of supposed democrats are on board with the right wing agenda. Or maybe it's just the 'big money' agenda.

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A nightmare that doctors overwhelmingly choose to avoid when they die themselves [View all] UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 OP

Rec except the "hugely profitable for hospitals" part. It isn't. Scuba Mar 2013 #1

How so? UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #3

Somebody is making a pile of money from this, otherwise they wouldn't keep the hospitals open.... OldDem2012 Mar 2013 #4

No, it depends on the type of hospital OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #61

There's bigger profits in other areas. Pharmaceuticals have the highest profit margins in medicine. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #80

That may be true but doesn't disprove that hospitals peform OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #113

I'm sure they do. But they perform unneeded procedures and profit off pointless care during HiPointDem Mar 2013 #114

We had this same discussion several months ago. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #118

I just posted some data and it included links. Here's another: HiPointDem Mar 2013 #121

Oh yes, I don't know what I am talking about. But you do. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #123

Most people over 65 don't spend *any* time in ICU in the year they die. No, you don't know HiPointDem Mar 2013 #127

You posted one link--just one--and I read it. The whole thing. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #131

... HiPointDem Mar 2013 #137

Don't bother, HiPointDem. kurtzapril4 Mar 2013 #218

Show me where I posted OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #230

LOVE how you add links later and pretend they were there all the time. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #231

love how you just make stuff up. 1st edit, with links, was less than 1 minute after the original HiPointDem Mar 2013 #233

When I finish my post has nothing to do with when I read yours. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #234

Are You Sure RobinA Mar 2013 #151

Ah yes. Blanks Mar 2013 #191

Exactly right! n/t kurtzapril4 Mar 2013 #219

Sure, families do it too. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #228

Some people totally insist of this level of "care" lark Mar 2013 #175

Why did they chose hospice when they Smilo Mar 2013 #197

This is probably a morbid question so you don't have to answer. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #229

They believe God values life above everything lark Mar 2013 #244

problem is "life saving" not "pointless" was the adjective used to describe the surgery that arely staircase Mar 2013 #129

The question in the graphic was "If you had irreversible brain damage, would you want X" HiPointDem Mar 2013 #140

And that is exactly what the graphic I posted was getting at. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #145

you misunderstood the question; it is "you already *have* irreversible brain injury, do you want HiPointDem Mar 2013 #147

No to that as well. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #148

no. i don't believe most people would want it, either. which is why i question the radio show's HiPointDem Mar 2013 #152

Are you worried about CPR being banned? UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #153

i am worried about choice of care being taken from older people, yes. and that would not HiPointDem Mar 2013 #156

Ah, kind of like death panels. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #162

i see my original assessment of your character was correct. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #198

Guess you didn't read the Time report last week. sinkingfeeling Mar 2013 #157

Just finishing that myself, and it's an eye-opener Lifelong Protester Mar 2013 #183

Yeah I did, so? OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #227

It's hugely profitable downstream adieu Mar 2013 #169

True. Hugely profitable for businesses DEPENDENT on hospitals. /nt TheMadMonk Mar 2013 #5

That part's definitely true. Scuba Mar 2013 #6

Exactly.. sendero Mar 2013 #26

I think of hospitals as being similar to the military buying hammers at $50 each n/t arcane1 Mar 2013 #37

ok, no argument there arely staircase Mar 2013 #42

In fact it serves best when they "lose" a little bit of money. TheMadMonk Mar 2013 #57

Have you seen the recent TIME cover story on the cost of care in the USA? Flatulo Mar 2013 #135

I will read it.. sendero Mar 2013 #141

"merely the collectors for drug, device and equipment makers who make the real money" HiPointDem Mar 2013 #142

In the TIME article, they make a similar point. Flatulo Mar 2013 #165

Beat Me To It RobinA Mar 2013 #149

Amazing how much misinformation there is on this topic. Many DU'ers believe hospitals are reaping.. Scuba Mar 2013 #154

I wonder how my aunt feels now hfojvt Mar 2013 #194

Let's call what it should be: the right to choose to die under palliative care. Auggie Mar 2013 #2

Doctors don't have to worry about it, they've got the drugs to end it peacefully. xtraxritical Mar 2013 #58

which people already have. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #85

Right. Except we must CONTROLLL TEH DRUGGGGS Warren DeMontague Mar 2013 #87

It's getting very difficult to even find a primary care doctor who will prescribe pain meds. Flatulo Mar 2013 #138

Good gosh. I'm sorry that happened to you. nt raccoon Mar 2013 #176

Amen. n/t easttexaslefty Mar 2013 #185

and yet overdose of prescription meds, mainly painkillers, is now a bigger cause of death HiPointDem Mar 2013 #203

Intentional overdose? Auggie Mar 2013 #222

If you need narcotic pain meds, kurtzapril4 Mar 2013 #225

I don't know, but if the choice is between letting people in pain suffer and the chance that Warren DeMontague Mar 2013 #238

I think much of it has to do with unrealistic expectations eallen Mar 2013 #7

Doctors also know time isn't really money. Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2013 #64

This was a major plank in Dr. Howard Dean's campaign...it's what drew me to him in the primaries alcibiades_mystery Mar 2013 #8

I know. Delphinus Mar 2013 #10

My mother had an advanced directive. When she was old and frail, after my brother had died CTyankee Mar 2013 #12

My grandfather lived to age 94 waddirum Mar 2013 #63

All I could do is talk to the doc and nurses about any pain management my mother needed. CTyankee Mar 2013 #133

Download your states Advanced Directives felix_numinous Mar 2013 #9

THANKS!!!!!!! for that website. I'll be downloading it. Auntie Bush Mar 2013 #19

Not a guarantee, but helps ellenrr Mar 2013 #106

I am not sure a doctor would honestly answer "What would you do" Grateful for Hope Mar 2013 #11

There's also the "not on my watch" scenario. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #13

Good point Grateful for Hope Mar 2013 #15

good doctors answer honestly. my Moms doctor ran down the details of life with Alzheimers.... bettyellen Mar 2013 #23

I absolutely know there are good doctors Grateful for Hope Mar 2013 #38

The country can't have this conversation zentrum Mar 2013 #41

Read this thread. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #47

Right wing bullies? They're all over DU, too. Try posting about that 87 year old pnwmom Mar 2013 #60

Corporations denying access to routine emergency care is more a right-wing thing, y'all. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #91

No. You just don't like this conversation because in an country where most lack access to... JVS Mar 2013 #67

+100. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #81

I don't think this incident is part of a huge healthcare conspiracy to deny the elderly care. pnwmom Mar 2013 #166

The last part of the OP's chart on how much money the last year of life costs didn't write itself. JVS Mar 2013 #186

This is the case of the largest 'senior living' corporation in the US refusing CPR to all residents HiPointDem Mar 2013 #204

it's true, I think they can go into "auto save" mode if that's the signal they are picking up from bettyellen Mar 2013 #46

Absolutely - Every patient needs an advocate. Grateful for Hope Mar 2013 #48

Same here, similar story onlyadream Mar 2013 #49

A good reminder to make sure all such forms and information are readily at hand Bibliovore Mar 2013 #107

Thanks - and that binder is a great idea onlyadream Mar 2013 #243

The cures we have are thanks to doctors who try, try, try JDPriestly Mar 2013 #52

For the most part, doctors do not develop cures. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #120

not true, historically speaking. and plenty of research scientists are also doctors, so it may HiPointDem Mar 2013 #128

Oh really? OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #132

easily shown to be false. you don't know what you're talking about. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #134

Nice anecdotes. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #223

Each person and his/her family has to make that JDPriestly Mar 2013 #172

I never said anything about CPR. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #224

Elderly people and their children need to be educated JDPriestly Mar 2013 #241

Agree. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #242

What do Americans not understand about statistics? ANYTHING AT ALL!! Moostache Mar 2013 #189

Yes -- but that same drive is what makes it so hard for doctors pnwmom Mar 2013 #216

Your mother's organs did not shut down because of the ventilator. WCLinolVir Mar 2013 #160

One of the doctors caring for my mom explained it to me... thecrow Mar 2013 #196

And some of those revived go on to live good lives. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #51

Although true Sgent Mar 2013 #74

Sepsis is a more critical condition than COPD or diabetes. The only thing an 18 year old with HiPointDem Mar 2013 #83

Just reread what I wrote Sgent Mar 2013 #108

I reread what you wrote. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #110

No not so much gasser85 Mar 2013 #192

I worked in a Physical Rehab Hospital for 10 years. Bozvotros Mar 2013 #214

It's called standard of care. Who wants to get sued? WCLinolVir Mar 2013 #161

I like what Woody Allen had to say: Martin Eden Mar 2013 #14

This advertisement brought to you by the health insurance industry. n/t Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #16

Yep, happens every once in a while a2liberal Mar 2013 #20

Interesting. I'm definitely pro DNR and always have been... DireStrike Mar 2013 #24

Hmm a2liberal Mar 2013 #27

Wait for it... Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #71

+100. It's actually these forces who wish to take away choice, as seen in the case of the biggest HiPointDem Mar 2013 #84

+1 JVS Mar 2013 #22

Didn't see that coming. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #25

It will work if a2liberal Mar 2013 #28

You really think a person who has a chance of surviving cancer UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #39

My point is they won't have the choice a2liberal Mar 2013 #76

You actually believe the claim in the graphic? That 'most' people say even with 'irreversible HiPointDem Mar 2013 #88

This is where I found it: UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #97

and now that i've tracked down a couple of the sources, here's some information. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #99

Yes, militating against it is the generally observed bias of people toward, y'know, staying alive . hatrack Mar 2013 #65

Did you write this? No. Then cut the "poor me" act. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #68

Do you have any proof the insurance industry is behind this? UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #77

I repeat, quit being a sucker. n/t Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #89

That's what I thought. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #95

No, you didn't, and now you want somebody else to do it for you. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #96

Harvested! UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #159

Um, already working. n/t GaYellowDawg Mar 2013 #105

Uh huh. People try to have a mature conversation about end of life care AtheistCrusader Mar 2013 #29

I had no idea I was so gullible. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #45

"Get sick" Hey, yeah, strawmen too. Why not. AtheistCrusader Mar 2013 #53

I agree with every word but that won't put a dent in their conspiracy theory. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #55

So, 'conspiracy' is the new DU catch-all accusation to shut down what you don't want to hear. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #70

it's not new, though. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #92

Good point, just new to me. I've been called right wing, loony left, unrealistic, and an Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #94

Big Money bought reduced coverage, now it buys reduced expectations. Festivito Mar 2013 #150

That's the problem with these corporate Dems. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #174

Big money made the bigger monster. Obamacare yields a smaller monster to fight later. Festivito Mar 2013 #237

+1 harun Mar 2013 #173

Great post malaise Mar 2013 #17

Hospice! That's what I will choose. longship Mar 2013 #18

Absolutely!!! Benton D Struckcheon Mar 2013 #66

Whatever way 10 of 10 insurance underwriters want me to die is what I hope to do the opposite of. JVS Mar 2013 #21

+1 (n/t) a2liberal Mar 2013 #32

+100. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #82

i am confused arely staircase Mar 2013 #30

I'm not a doctor, but I would refuse any attempt to treat a massive brain injury with chemotherapy. JVS Mar 2013 #35

which is why these numbers are so odd arely staircase Mar 2013 #86

the questions are posed in the context of having irreversible brain injury. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #146

i get that, which s why the mention of chemo is so odd arely staircase Mar 2013 #206

It meant that in a case where they already *had* an irreversible brain injury, they wouldn't HiPointDem Mar 2013 #207

then that makes total sense and answers my question arely staircase Mar 2013 #208

Also, I seriously doubt the claim that 'most' people say they would choose cpr if they had HiPointDem Mar 2013 #93

If we are lucky, we just pass on while sleeping liberal N proud Mar 2013 #31

Harry Nilsson had it right. alfredo Mar 2013 #33

More people make a living from cancer... retired rooster Mar 2013 #34

Sadly, this is a fact. Just as sadly, a majority of Americans are allergic to facts. n/t Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #90

What do they mean "no" on chemotherapy? 85% would just hope the cancer goes away? bloomington-lib Mar 2013 #36

I took it to mean "no to chemo" if you were in a stage of cancer UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #40

Yeah, having had people close to me go through chemo, Nye Bevan Mar 2013 #54

I've somehow managed to avoid that. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #59

My uncle did this. dkf Mar 2013 #69

According to the radio show reporting on the doctors study, the hypothetical context was HiPointDem Mar 2013 #100

In some elderly people cancer is very slow growing pnwmom Mar 2013 #62

I agree; that statement is wrong. Zoeisright Mar 2013 #170

Mom was resuscitated and died 2 weeks later - it was great. hollysmom Mar 2013 #43

Living will, advanced directives, euthanasia. n/t ProfessionalLeftist Mar 2013 #44

I witnessed CPR being given to a child who nearly drowned. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #50

having watched 4 parents die prolonged deaths.... bluemarkers Mar 2013 #56

when I got my First Aide/CPR training NMDemDist2 Mar 2013 #72

My dad's been through CPR twice. noamnety Mar 2013 #213

defibs are a different story NMDemDist2 Mar 2013 #235

He went through the standard CPR noamnety Mar 2013 #236

I am very lucky because Dignitas are just 2 hours away. idwiyo Mar 2013 #73

People Should Have End Of Life Options Here colsohlibgal Mar 2013 #75

BULLSHIT. "Most" people with "irreversible brain injury" want CPR? I seriously doubt it. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #78

K&R AnotherMcIntosh Mar 2013 #79

Stupid Egnever Mar 2013 #98

Yes; CPR has a higher success rate when it's done by trained personnel and an even higher HiPointDem Mar 2013 #101

Have you ever done CPR? gasser85 Mar 2013 #195

yes, i've done cpr. my claim was that training and assistive equipment increases success rates HiPointDem Mar 2013 #199

Sorry no link gasser85 Mar 2013 #240

Thank you-A little reality here please. WCLinolVir Mar 2013 #163

As far as the graphic goes GaYellowDawg Mar 2013 #102

Looks like some of the info on that graphic is bogus, too. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #111

Universal health care isn't about keeping old people alive in vegetative states. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #126

But it IS about GaYellowDawg Mar 2013 #180

I never said anything about CPR. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #226

This is very timely for me ellenrr Mar 2013 #103

I'm so sorry for your loss. Habibi Mar 2013 #136

I think the anti CPR tone in these posts is irresponsible. napoleon_in_rags Mar 2013 #104

The paper those statistics are taken from actually doesn't say that 3% wind up in a 'vegetative HiPointDem Mar 2013 #109

Its a misplaced agenda. napoleon_in_rags Mar 2013 #200

agreed. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #210

I question the stats and sources Android3.14 Mar 2013 #112

I checked the references at the bottom of the graphic. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #117

My father was a physician for over 50 years.... ColesCountyDem Mar 2013 #115

as a doctor Carolina Mar 2013 #116

not only the fault of the families though. the system, even where it mandates those discussions, HiPointDem Mar 2013 #119

True, too Carolina Mar 2013 #122

I'm quite willing to believe docs are on average less likely to want extrodinary measures at the HiPointDem Mar 2013 #124

medical care is expensive because Carolina Mar 2013 #164

"expensive because of the invasion of the businessmen, ie. the insurance corporations." HiPointDem Mar 2013 #202

With all due respect, doctor, your take on malpractice litigation marybourg Mar 2013 #178

Do you now or have you ever paid medical malpractice insuranace? Carolina Mar 2013 #179

And so you would have the victim or society at large bear the cost? marybourg Mar 2013 #184

You're already paying for the cost of malpractice insurance, you just don't realize it. Carolina Mar 2013 #188

So if all of us are paying for it, a fact of marybourg Mar 2013 #190

If you READ Carolina Mar 2013 #193

You're awesome. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #125

what? two doctors said that the graphic is true? where's that? HiPointDem Mar 2013 #130

What are the stats for North Korea? UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #139

lol. the last resort when you're losing the argument. goodbye. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #144

Yes. treestar Mar 2013 #171

The major problem with this concept... Nitram Mar 2013 #143

Honestly who cares what a doctor would do. Really. It is simple enough to have an advance directive. WCLinolVir Mar 2013 #155

+1 HiPointDem Mar 2013 #158

Get a directive for health care oldandhappy Mar 2013 #167

Exactly! But you should spell Carolina Mar 2013 #177

I also disagree with you here, doctor. marybourg Mar 2013 #182

Certainly, no one is omniscient Carolina Mar 2013 #187

yes. the more specificity, the better. and health care personnel should help by educating HiPointDem Mar 2013 #205

good points oldandhappy Mar 2013 #239

No doubt libodem Mar 2013 #168

It's about organ donation Duer 157099 Mar 2013 #181

because 87-year-old organs are highly desirable. actually, it's younger folks who should be HiPointDem Mar 2013 #201

Good point Duer 157099 Mar 2013 #209

I didn't think it was possible to out woo HiPointDem UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #215

Out woo? Duer 157099 Mar 2013 #217

Yeah, the guy who posts a graphic made by an unknown blogger containing misleading and HiPointDem Mar 2013 #220

Another reason why mandatory organ donation should never be legal. Dawson Leery Mar 2013 #211

This message was self-deleted by its author ErikJ Mar 2013 #212

good poster but it needs some diversity Liberal_in_LA Mar 2013 #221

k&r for an excellent, if heated, discussion. Laelth Mar 2013 #232