General Discussion

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)

119. not only the fault of the families though. the system, even where it mandates those discussions,

Fri Mar 8, 2013, 08:11 AM

Mar 2013

doesn't often give medically naive people a concrete idea of what's going on or what pulling out all the stops might mean in a way they can grasp.

they'll nod their heads, but they interpret what's said within their own experiential context, which is different from the context of medical personnel dealing with people at the end of life.

that said, the graphic includes false and misleading material.

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A nightmare that doctors overwhelmingly choose to avoid when they die themselves [View all] UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 OP

Rec except the "hugely profitable for hospitals" part. It isn't. Scuba Mar 2013 #1

How so? UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #3

Somebody is making a pile of money from this, otherwise they wouldn't keep the hospitals open.... OldDem2012 Mar 2013 #4

No, it depends on the type of hospital OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #61

There's bigger profits in other areas. Pharmaceuticals have the highest profit margins in medicine. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #80

That may be true but doesn't disprove that hospitals peform OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #113

I'm sure they do. But they perform unneeded procedures and profit off pointless care during HiPointDem Mar 2013 #114

We had this same discussion several months ago. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #118

I just posted some data and it included links. Here's another: HiPointDem Mar 2013 #121

Oh yes, I don't know what I am talking about. But you do. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #123

Most people over 65 don't spend *any* time in ICU in the year they die. No, you don't know HiPointDem Mar 2013 #127

You posted one link--just one--and I read it. The whole thing. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #131

... HiPointDem Mar 2013 #137

Don't bother, HiPointDem. kurtzapril4 Mar 2013 #218

Show me where I posted OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #230

LOVE how you add links later and pretend they were there all the time. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #231

love how you just make stuff up. 1st edit, with links, was less than 1 minute after the original HiPointDem Mar 2013 #233

When I finish my post has nothing to do with when I read yours. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #234

Are You Sure RobinA Mar 2013 #151

Ah yes. Blanks Mar 2013 #191

Exactly right! n/t kurtzapril4 Mar 2013 #219

Sure, families do it too. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #228

Some people totally insist of this level of "care" lark Mar 2013 #175

Why did they chose hospice when they Smilo Mar 2013 #197

This is probably a morbid question so you don't have to answer. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #229

They believe God values life above everything lark Mar 2013 #244

problem is "life saving" not "pointless" was the adjective used to describe the surgery that arely staircase Mar 2013 #129

The question in the graphic was "If you had irreversible brain damage, would you want X" HiPointDem Mar 2013 #140

And that is exactly what the graphic I posted was getting at. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #145

you misunderstood the question; it is "you already *have* irreversible brain injury, do you want HiPointDem Mar 2013 #147

No to that as well. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #148

no. i don't believe most people would want it, either. which is why i question the radio show's HiPointDem Mar 2013 #152

Are you worried about CPR being banned? UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #153

i am worried about choice of care being taken from older people, yes. and that would not HiPointDem Mar 2013 #156

Ah, kind of like death panels. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #162

i see my original assessment of your character was correct. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #198

Guess you didn't read the Time report last week. sinkingfeeling Mar 2013 #157

Just finishing that myself, and it's an eye-opener Lifelong Protester Mar 2013 #183

Yeah I did, so? OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #227

It's hugely profitable downstream adieu Mar 2013 #169

True. Hugely profitable for businesses DEPENDENT on hospitals. /nt TheMadMonk Mar 2013 #5

That part's definitely true. Scuba Mar 2013 #6

Exactly.. sendero Mar 2013 #26

I think of hospitals as being similar to the military buying hammers at $50 each n/t arcane1 Mar 2013 #37

ok, no argument there arely staircase Mar 2013 #42

In fact it serves best when they "lose" a little bit of money. TheMadMonk Mar 2013 #57

Have you seen the recent TIME cover story on the cost of care in the USA? Flatulo Mar 2013 #135

I will read it.. sendero Mar 2013 #141

"merely the collectors for drug, device and equipment makers who make the real money" HiPointDem Mar 2013 #142

In the TIME article, they make a similar point. Flatulo Mar 2013 #165

Beat Me To It RobinA Mar 2013 #149

Amazing how much misinformation there is on this topic. Many DU'ers believe hospitals are reaping.. Scuba Mar 2013 #154

I wonder how my aunt feels now hfojvt Mar 2013 #194

Let's call what it should be: the right to choose to die under palliative care. Auggie Mar 2013 #2

Doctors don't have to worry about it, they've got the drugs to end it peacefully. xtraxritical Mar 2013 #58

which people already have. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #85

Right. Except we must CONTROLLL TEH DRUGGGGS Warren DeMontague Mar 2013 #87

It's getting very difficult to even find a primary care doctor who will prescribe pain meds. Flatulo Mar 2013 #138

Good gosh. I'm sorry that happened to you. nt raccoon Mar 2013 #176

Amen. n/t easttexaslefty Mar 2013 #185

and yet overdose of prescription meds, mainly painkillers, is now a bigger cause of death HiPointDem Mar 2013 #203

Intentional overdose? Auggie Mar 2013 #222

If you need narcotic pain meds, kurtzapril4 Mar 2013 #225

I don't know, but if the choice is between letting people in pain suffer and the chance that Warren DeMontague Mar 2013 #238

I think much of it has to do with unrealistic expectations eallen Mar 2013 #7

Doctors also know time isn't really money. Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2013 #64

This was a major plank in Dr. Howard Dean's campaign...it's what drew me to him in the primaries alcibiades_mystery Mar 2013 #8

I know. Delphinus Mar 2013 #10

My mother had an advanced directive. When she was old and frail, after my brother had died CTyankee Mar 2013 #12

My grandfather lived to age 94 waddirum Mar 2013 #63

All I could do is talk to the doc and nurses about any pain management my mother needed. CTyankee Mar 2013 #133

Download your states Advanced Directives felix_numinous Mar 2013 #9

THANKS!!!!!!! for that website. I'll be downloading it. Auntie Bush Mar 2013 #19

Not a guarantee, but helps ellenrr Mar 2013 #106

I am not sure a doctor would honestly answer "What would you do" Grateful for Hope Mar 2013 #11

There's also the "not on my watch" scenario. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #13

Good point Grateful for Hope Mar 2013 #15

good doctors answer honestly. my Moms doctor ran down the details of life with Alzheimers.... bettyellen Mar 2013 #23

I absolutely know there are good doctors Grateful for Hope Mar 2013 #38

The country can't have this conversation zentrum Mar 2013 #41

Read this thread. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #47

Right wing bullies? They're all over DU, too. Try posting about that 87 year old pnwmom Mar 2013 #60

Corporations denying access to routine emergency care is more a right-wing thing, y'all. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #91

No. You just don't like this conversation because in an country where most lack access to... JVS Mar 2013 #67

+100. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #81

I don't think this incident is part of a huge healthcare conspiracy to deny the elderly care. pnwmom Mar 2013 #166

The last part of the OP's chart on how much money the last year of life costs didn't write itself. JVS Mar 2013 #186

This is the case of the largest 'senior living' corporation in the US refusing CPR to all residents HiPointDem Mar 2013 #204

it's true, I think they can go into "auto save" mode if that's the signal they are picking up from bettyellen Mar 2013 #46

Absolutely - Every patient needs an advocate. Grateful for Hope Mar 2013 #48

Same here, similar story onlyadream Mar 2013 #49

A good reminder to make sure all such forms and information are readily at hand Bibliovore Mar 2013 #107

Thanks - and that binder is a great idea onlyadream Mar 2013 #243

The cures we have are thanks to doctors who try, try, try JDPriestly Mar 2013 #52

For the most part, doctors do not develop cures. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #120

not true, historically speaking. and plenty of research scientists are also doctors, so it may HiPointDem Mar 2013 #128

Oh really? OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #132

easily shown to be false. you don't know what you're talking about. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #134

Nice anecdotes. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #223

Each person and his/her family has to make that JDPriestly Mar 2013 #172

I never said anything about CPR. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #224

Elderly people and their children need to be educated JDPriestly Mar 2013 #241

Agree. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #242

What do Americans not understand about statistics? ANYTHING AT ALL!! Moostache Mar 2013 #189

Yes -- but that same drive is what makes it so hard for doctors pnwmom Mar 2013 #216

Your mother's organs did not shut down because of the ventilator. WCLinolVir Mar 2013 #160

One of the doctors caring for my mom explained it to me... thecrow Mar 2013 #196

And some of those revived go on to live good lives. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #51

Although true Sgent Mar 2013 #74

Sepsis is a more critical condition than COPD or diabetes. The only thing an 18 year old with HiPointDem Mar 2013 #83

Just reread what I wrote Sgent Mar 2013 #108

I reread what you wrote. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #110

No not so much gasser85 Mar 2013 #192

I worked in a Physical Rehab Hospital for 10 years. Bozvotros Mar 2013 #214

It's called standard of care. Who wants to get sued? WCLinolVir Mar 2013 #161

I like what Woody Allen had to say: Martin Eden Mar 2013 #14

This advertisement brought to you by the health insurance industry. n/t Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #16

Yep, happens every once in a while a2liberal Mar 2013 #20

Interesting. I'm definitely pro DNR and always have been... DireStrike Mar 2013 #24

Hmm a2liberal Mar 2013 #27

Wait for it... Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #71

+100. It's actually these forces who wish to take away choice, as seen in the case of the biggest HiPointDem Mar 2013 #84

+1 JVS Mar 2013 #22

Didn't see that coming. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #25

It will work if a2liberal Mar 2013 #28

You really think a person who has a chance of surviving cancer UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #39

My point is they won't have the choice a2liberal Mar 2013 #76

You actually believe the claim in the graphic? That 'most' people say even with 'irreversible HiPointDem Mar 2013 #88

This is where I found it: UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #97

and now that i've tracked down a couple of the sources, here's some information. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #99

Yes, militating against it is the generally observed bias of people toward, y'know, staying alive . hatrack Mar 2013 #65

Did you write this? No. Then cut the "poor me" act. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #68

Do you have any proof the insurance industry is behind this? UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #77

I repeat, quit being a sucker. n/t Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #89

That's what I thought. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #95

No, you didn't, and now you want somebody else to do it for you. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #96

Harvested! UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #159

Um, already working. n/t GaYellowDawg Mar 2013 #105

Uh huh. People try to have a mature conversation about end of life care AtheistCrusader Mar 2013 #29

I had no idea I was so gullible. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #45

"Get sick" Hey, yeah, strawmen too. Why not. AtheistCrusader Mar 2013 #53

I agree with every word but that won't put a dent in their conspiracy theory. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #55

So, 'conspiracy' is the new DU catch-all accusation to shut down what you don't want to hear. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #70

it's not new, though. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #92

Good point, just new to me. I've been called right wing, loony left, unrealistic, and an Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #94

Big Money bought reduced coverage, now it buys reduced expectations. Festivito Mar 2013 #150

That's the problem with these corporate Dems. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #174

Big money made the bigger monster. Obamacare yields a smaller monster to fight later. Festivito Mar 2013 #237

+1 harun Mar 2013 #173

Great post malaise Mar 2013 #17

Hospice! That's what I will choose. longship Mar 2013 #18

Absolutely!!! Benton D Struckcheon Mar 2013 #66

Whatever way 10 of 10 insurance underwriters want me to die is what I hope to do the opposite of. JVS Mar 2013 #21

+1 (n/t) a2liberal Mar 2013 #32

+100. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #82

i am confused arely staircase Mar 2013 #30

I'm not a doctor, but I would refuse any attempt to treat a massive brain injury with chemotherapy. JVS Mar 2013 #35

which is why these numbers are so odd arely staircase Mar 2013 #86

the questions are posed in the context of having irreversible brain injury. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #146

i get that, which s why the mention of chemo is so odd arely staircase Mar 2013 #206

It meant that in a case where they already *had* an irreversible brain injury, they wouldn't HiPointDem Mar 2013 #207

then that makes total sense and answers my question arely staircase Mar 2013 #208

Also, I seriously doubt the claim that 'most' people say they would choose cpr if they had HiPointDem Mar 2013 #93

If we are lucky, we just pass on while sleeping liberal N proud Mar 2013 #31

Harry Nilsson had it right. alfredo Mar 2013 #33

More people make a living from cancer... retired rooster Mar 2013 #34

Sadly, this is a fact. Just as sadly, a majority of Americans are allergic to facts. n/t Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #90

What do they mean "no" on chemotherapy? 85% would just hope the cancer goes away? bloomington-lib Mar 2013 #36

I took it to mean "no to chemo" if you were in a stage of cancer UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #40

Yeah, having had people close to me go through chemo, Nye Bevan Mar 2013 #54

I've somehow managed to avoid that. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #59

My uncle did this. dkf Mar 2013 #69

According to the radio show reporting on the doctors study, the hypothetical context was HiPointDem Mar 2013 #100

In some elderly people cancer is very slow growing pnwmom Mar 2013 #62

I agree; that statement is wrong. Zoeisright Mar 2013 #170

Mom was resuscitated and died 2 weeks later - it was great. hollysmom Mar 2013 #43

Living will, advanced directives, euthanasia. n/t ProfessionalLeftist Mar 2013 #44

I witnessed CPR being given to a child who nearly drowned. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #50

having watched 4 parents die prolonged deaths.... bluemarkers Mar 2013 #56

when I got my First Aide/CPR training NMDemDist2 Mar 2013 #72

My dad's been through CPR twice. noamnety Mar 2013 #213

defibs are a different story NMDemDist2 Mar 2013 #235

He went through the standard CPR noamnety Mar 2013 #236

I am very lucky because Dignitas are just 2 hours away. idwiyo Mar 2013 #73

People Should Have End Of Life Options Here colsohlibgal Mar 2013 #75

BULLSHIT. "Most" people with "irreversible brain injury" want CPR? I seriously doubt it. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #78

K&R AnotherMcIntosh Mar 2013 #79

Stupid Egnever Mar 2013 #98

Yes; CPR has a higher success rate when it's done by trained personnel and an even higher HiPointDem Mar 2013 #101

Have you ever done CPR? gasser85 Mar 2013 #195

yes, i've done cpr. my claim was that training and assistive equipment increases success rates HiPointDem Mar 2013 #199

Sorry no link gasser85 Mar 2013 #240

Thank you-A little reality here please. WCLinolVir Mar 2013 #163

As far as the graphic goes GaYellowDawg Mar 2013 #102

Looks like some of the info on that graphic is bogus, too. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #111

Universal health care isn't about keeping old people alive in vegetative states. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #126

But it IS about GaYellowDawg Mar 2013 #180

I never said anything about CPR. OrwellwasRight Mar 2013 #226

This is very timely for me ellenrr Mar 2013 #103

I'm so sorry for your loss. Habibi Mar 2013 #136

I think the anti CPR tone in these posts is irresponsible. napoleon_in_rags Mar 2013 #104

The paper those statistics are taken from actually doesn't say that 3% wind up in a 'vegetative HiPointDem Mar 2013 #109

Its a misplaced agenda. napoleon_in_rags Mar 2013 #200

agreed. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #210

I question the stats and sources Android3.14 Mar 2013 #112

I checked the references at the bottom of the graphic. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #117

My father was a physician for over 50 years.... ColesCountyDem Mar 2013 #115

as a doctor Carolina Mar 2013 #116

not only the fault of the families though. the system, even where it mandates those discussions, HiPointDem Mar 2013 #119

True, too Carolina Mar 2013 #122

I'm quite willing to believe docs are on average less likely to want extrodinary measures at the HiPointDem Mar 2013 #124

medical care is expensive because Carolina Mar 2013 #164

"expensive because of the invasion of the businessmen, ie. the insurance corporations." HiPointDem Mar 2013 #202

With all due respect, doctor, your take on malpractice litigation marybourg Mar 2013 #178

Do you now or have you ever paid medical malpractice insuranace? Carolina Mar 2013 #179

And so you would have the victim or society at large bear the cost? marybourg Mar 2013 #184

You're already paying for the cost of malpractice insurance, you just don't realize it. Carolina Mar 2013 #188

So if all of us are paying for it, a fact of marybourg Mar 2013 #190

If you READ Carolina Mar 2013 #193

You're awesome. UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #125

what? two doctors said that the graphic is true? where's that? HiPointDem Mar 2013 #130

What are the stats for North Korea? UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #139

lol. the last resort when you're losing the argument. goodbye. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #144

Yes. treestar Mar 2013 #171

The major problem with this concept... Nitram Mar 2013 #143

Honestly who cares what a doctor would do. Really. It is simple enough to have an advance directive. WCLinolVir Mar 2013 #155

+1 HiPointDem Mar 2013 #158

Get a directive for health care oldandhappy Mar 2013 #167

Exactly! But you should spell Carolina Mar 2013 #177

I also disagree with you here, doctor. marybourg Mar 2013 #182

Certainly, no one is omniscient Carolina Mar 2013 #187

yes. the more specificity, the better. and health care personnel should help by educating HiPointDem Mar 2013 #205

good points oldandhappy Mar 2013 #239

No doubt libodem Mar 2013 #168

It's about organ donation Duer 157099 Mar 2013 #181

because 87-year-old organs are highly desirable. actually, it's younger folks who should be HiPointDem Mar 2013 #201

Good point Duer 157099 Mar 2013 #209

I didn't think it was possible to out woo HiPointDem UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #215

Out woo? Duer 157099 Mar 2013 #217

Yeah, the guy who posts a graphic made by an unknown blogger containing misleading and HiPointDem Mar 2013 #220

Another reason why mandatory organ donation should never be legal. Dawson Leery Mar 2013 #211

This message was self-deleted by its author ErikJ Mar 2013 #212

good poster but it needs some diversity Liberal_in_LA Mar 2013 #221

k&r for an excellent, if heated, discussion. Laelth Mar 2013 #232