General Discussion

patrice

(47,992 posts)

32. Allowing one's self to be oppressed by one's symbols, whether your symbol is pro- or anti- burning,

Tue Jan 31, 2012, 06:17 PM

Jan 2012

is the opposite of what that flag stands for, the FREEDOM OF THE PEOPLE that the flag ONLY represents. The flag and what it represents are NOT identical, flag =/= people. We could have every kind of respect for a flag that it is possible to have and it would still also be possible to be an enslaved people; the experiences that respect for that flag would represent would be the people's experience, lives of living oppression.

That said, an authentically free people would also know that freedom does not DEPEND upon anything, including whether a flag is burnt or not. Burning it doesn't necessarily mean that you are free. Not burning it doesn't necessarily mean that you are not free. Freedom is a necessary, though not sufficient condition, for either act.

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Why Burning the Flag Matters [View all] MineralMan Jan 2012 OP

Why I think this is more important than a piece of cloth. hobbit709 Jan 2012 #1

Which of the people in my photos MineralMan Jan 2012 #5

That has nothing to do with the fact that the US Constitution protects this, even though you may not LaydeeBug Jan 2012 #8

Of course the Constitution protects it. MineralMan Jan 2012 #20

It is ALWAYS a good idea to protect the US Constitution. Yes. nt LaydeeBug Jan 2012 #88

Yes, it is. Right now, I'm exercising my First Amendment rights. MineralMan Jan 2012 #89

Oh, I don't mind at all...you don't mind MY exercising the same right? Right? LaydeeBug Feb 2012 #133

could you point me to where in the US Constitution it says that you can burn somebody elses flag? nt Bodhi BloodWave Jan 2012 #106

Could you please point out to me where it is someone ELSE'S flag we're talking about? LaydeeBug Feb 2012 #132

And the people who protect the constitution Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2012 #135

This message was self-deleted by its author bahrbearian Aug 2012 #138

The US constitution protects lots of things metalbot Jan 2012 #116

People can burn the flag for a LOT of reasons...especially, retiring it, calling for distress, etc LaydeeBug Feb 2012 #134

Actually, ProSense Jan 2012 #12

Actually, the words you used to write that post are just symbols... renie408 Jan 2012 #35

It isn't necessary to reject symbols to be honest about what they truly are and HOW they work. patrice Jan 2012 #60

It's a symbol of our Country, right or wrong. nt demosincebirth Jan 2012 #2

Symbols are not the same thing as that which they represent, e.g. 2 is not the same thing as I I or patrice Jan 2012 #44

Semantics. demosincebirth Jan 2012 #71

Uh . . . anything to do with ANY kinds of words IS semantics. Is your reference to this negative? patrice Jan 2012 #73

There is a related term "semiotics" that has to do with the meaning of symbols. patrice Jan 2012 #75

Couldn't disagree more. It's just fabric, so long as one is burning one's own flag, doesn't matter. Lionessa Jan 2012 #3

Right on, Lioness, you LIVE it. That doing does not require a symbol. It IS the embodiment of truth. patrice Jan 2012 #46

If you honor what the Flag represents, you must accept that some will wish to destroy it. baldguy Jan 2012 #4

Yes, of course. It is our right to burn the flag. MineralMan Jan 2012 #7

Sorry, how is the guy who burned the flag in Oakland *NOT* part of the 99%? baldguy Jan 2012 #19

I did not say he wasn't. I'm sure he is. MineralMan Jan 2012 #26

If they think a bit of cloth is more important than the future of America, then no. baldguy Jan 2012 #37

This reminds me of the constant brainwashing I received as a kid Cali_Democrat Jan 2012 #6

Look at the people in the photos. Which are not part of the 99%, do you think? MineralMan Jan 2012 #10

so are you going to tell us why it matters? DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2012 #9

Sure. All of the people in those photos, and even the MineralMan Jan 2012 #14

It's a good start, but you're omitting details. Back when you were a bigwig at Free Republic, DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2012 #29

MineralMan was a bigwig at Free Republic? Kaleko Jan 2012 #68

I think he's genuinely a Democrat DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2012 #74

Nope. A lifelong Democrat and progressive. MineralMan Jan 2012 #79

Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #111

I was never anything at Free Republic but someone MineralMan Jan 2012 #78

were you, or weren't you registered at FreeRepublic as MineralMan? DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2012 #93

What does that matter to you? Yes, I was a member there, using the same name I use on MineralMan Jan 2012 #96

Kudos. randome Jan 2012 #100

Rugh Ro. You supported bushitler over there for whatever reason? lonestarnot Jan 2012 #113

Leave him alone... ellisonz Jan 2012 #117

What does it matter to me? Where shall I begin? DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2012 #118

Wow, supporting the Swift Boaters?? sabrina 1 Feb 2012 #123

Not just supporting the Swift Boaters years ago, Kaleko Feb 2012 #129

From your journal... Bluenorthwest Sep 2012 #139

Yes, I apologized for that. My apology was sincere. MineralMan Sep 2012 #140

+1 Enrique Jan 2012 #15

A lot of people you don't know are standing up for some reason gratuitous Jan 2012 #16

I knew I should have taken more Latin. ;) n/t DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2012 #30

I still think it was a staged infiltration. HopeHoops Jan 2012 #11

Extremely probable. There is authentic hatred for the Occupy. patrice Jan 2012 #38

A couple of things in particular make it distinctive... HopeHoops Jan 2012 #45

We had some crap wearing masks go down in our Occupy. POWER tripping stupid stuff. patrice Jan 2012 #48

If you'll notice, the people getting pepper sprayed and arrested don't wear masks. HopeHoops Jan 2012 #49

I haven't been big on masks from the start. You want to deal with me? Face to face is the way I do patrice Jan 2012 #55

Okay, you obviously typed that quickly. Bullshit on me or bullshit on the flag burning? HopeHoops Jan 2012 #57

SORRY!! Bullshit on masks. patrice Jan 2012 #63

Okay, well the Guy Fawkes mask I can understand. Bandanas, no. HopeHoops Jan 2012 #64

"Sacred cows make the best hamburger." Mark Twain Tierra_y_Libertad Jan 2012 #13

Nice. Now, which of the people in the photos I posted are not MineralMan Jan 2012 #17

Are the people in the photos all of the 99%? Tierra_y_Libertad Jan 2012 #21

This message was self-deleted by its author gulliver Jan 2012 #84

Nice thread MineralMan NNN0LHI Jan 2012 #18

This message was self-deleted by its author SomethingFishy Jan 2012 #21

Yeah.. respect the flag... SomethingFishy Jan 2012 #21

Missed the obvious one. baldguy Jan 2012 #42

Snort ROFLMAO lonestarnot Jan 2012 #114

Now that REALLY wasn't necessary. stevenleser Jan 2012 #119

What you have are pictures of Nationalism. RC Jan 2012 #21

You think Nationalism is the reason I saved the flag that was draped over my late fathers casket? NNN0LHI Jan 2012 #28

Huh? RC Jan 2012 #43

This message was self-deleted by its author SomethingFishy Jan 2012 #25

I must have missed the mass flag burnings lately Stuckinthebush Jan 2012 #27

I'm sorry... TlalocW Jan 2012 #31

Apparently some occupiers,or people pretending to be occupiers, broke into city hall & burned a flag stevenleser Jan 2012 #120

Allowing one's self to be oppressed by one's symbols, whether your symbol is pro- or anti- burning, patrice Jan 2012 #32

This seems to explain in a funny way why burning the flag is such a bad PR move. redqueen Jan 2012 #33

Awesome. I hadn't seen that before. Thanks for sharing. nt Electric Monk Jan 2012 #47

Ewwwwwwww. Bonobo Jan 2012 #34

So no country should burn any flag nor ANYTHING that SOMEONE holds sacred. Bonobo Jan 2012 #36

The First Amendment gives you the right to burn a flag, not steal one. renie408 Jan 2012 #39

Wow, putting a symbol ahead of the values and ideas that it stands for. MadHound Jan 2012 #40

Burning the flag is speech. Who is the audience? What is the flag burner saying to them? FarCenter Jan 2012 #41

What did it accomplish? riverwalker Jan 2012 #50

Precisely! patrice Jan 2012 #70

Clue: Burning is the legally prescribed method for disposing of a flag ... TahitiNut Jan 2012 #51

It could be argued that the Flag from Oakland City Hall was desecrated by Mayor Quan baldguy Jan 2012 #53

Bingo. TahitiNut Jan 2012 #109

Well MineralMan, at least you tried kctim Jan 2012 #52

Tell us why it matters............. Angry Dragon Jan 2012 #54

Because the children pledge allegiance to it Cali_Democrat Jan 2012 #58

And just how fucked up is it to force children to pledge their allegiance to a flag! Bonobo Jan 2012 #67

You really are just totally immune to sarcasm, aren't you? n/t renie408 Jan 2012 #92

No, I got that that was sarcasm, thank you. nt Bonobo Jan 2012 #95

yes, it's an important symbol. But part of the problem w/ the human animal is our difficulty Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #56

Dr. Chomsky, is that you? patrice Jan 2012 #72

Yes Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #81

Holy shit, this! drokhole Jan 2012 #86

Wilson got me into Korzybski, too. Warren DeMontague Jan 2012 #91

And you articulated it brilliantly. drokhole Jan 2012 #94

Exactly why it matters. And why burning it should always be protected. morningfog Jan 2012 #59

That's why I don't burn flags. KamaAina Jan 2012 #61

America Love it or Leave it syndrome, flag division. More idolatry on display nt msongs Jan 2012 #62

The bigger point: Those that burned the flag do not represent the majority of OWS justiceischeap Jan 2012 #65

Emotional poppycock whatchamacallit Jan 2012 #66

Depending on the phrasing I may or may not agree cthulu2016 Jan 2012 #69

J-I-N-G-O Jingo! REP Jan 2012 #76

Thank you DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2012 #77

Great post. marmar Jan 2012 #80

Agree deutsey Jan 2012 #112

Nobody is dishonoring them by burning the flag...... marmar Jan 2012 #82

think I'm gonna go home and burn a flag or two tonight.... mike_c Jan 2012 #83

The flag is a symbol period. I leave symbols to the symbol-minded (george carlin) rustydog Jan 2012 #85

When the symbol becomes more important than the thing it's symbolising... sibelian Jan 2012 #87

I agree. I posted this in another thread and found it dana_b Jan 2012 #102

It is fitting and proper to dispose of a flag using fire. That is the way it is done. Bluenorthwest Jan 2012 #90

Our neighbor has a terribly weatherbeaten old flag hanging over his front porch. It needs to be Skwid Jan 2012 #110

You're right. Social movements need to consider the sensibilities of others, ZombieHorde Jan 2012 #97

It depends on what their goals are, really. MineralMan Jan 2012 #98

I hope you succeed. Republicans are lame. nt ZombieHorde Jan 2012 #99

Spin. Spinning. Spinnerific! nt Bonobo Jan 2012 #101

The only spinning I do is fishing. MineralMan Jan 2012 #105

Don't be so modest. Bonobo Jan 2012 #108

You noticed that too. Puglover Feb 2012 #128

Civil disobedience is rarely pragmatic, you're arguing for them to "be pragmatic" and somehow... joshcryer Jan 2012 #107

Awwww how cute! Are there puppies??? Taverner Jan 2012 #103

This is really why not owning the flag burning matters. joshcryer Jan 2012 #104

My dad, a WWII vet, said that he fought for people to have the right to burn the flag if they.... Logical Jan 2012 #115

"Shit on the Constitution, just don't burn my flag!" Bonobo Jan 2012 #121

It's amazing how many of you missed MineralMan's point and created all kinds of strawmen stevenleser Jan 2012 #122

No, the larger point is people can be manipulated by images, including the ones in the OP. EFerrari Feb 2012 #126

What's really amazing is how you could have missed Kaleko Feb 2012 #127

What I saw in those pictures was flag fetishism and blind devotion Taverner Feb 2012 #130

Hey, but you're supposed to be brow-beaten Kaleko Feb 2012 #131

: ) T S Justly Feb 2012 #124

Oh please. donheld Feb 2012 #125

This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl Feb 2012 #136

This message was self-deleted by its author bahrbearian Aug 2012 #137