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nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)

256. I am sure you do

Reply to boston bean (Reply #252)

Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:57 PM

Mar 2013

Next you will turn this on the dime...that is the mo every time.

Chuckles.

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Why are some men so upset with the idea that treating women differently can promote and teach Sexism. [View all] Notafraidtoo Mar 2013 OP

I get the feeling judging by some of the names popping up in those other discussions Arcanetrance Mar 2013 #1

The OP appears to have unresolved issues with his lack of chivalry. TheBlackAdder Mar 2013 #181

Not a troll post. Notafraidtoo Mar 2013 #295

That 'theory' is right up there with Trump's Obama Birth Certificate theory. TheBlackAdder Mar 2013 #296

You can't escape the fact that rainy Mar 2013 #2

Just FYI, I'm a woman and I open jars for my male roommate. justiceischeap Mar 2013 #9

I see your point very well. What I'm trying to say is that instead of rainy Mar 2013 #10

Yeah for your father! treestar Mar 2013 #189

And asians are good at math, and black people are less intelligent... alp227 Mar 2013 #199

Different and equal loyalsister Mar 2013 #312

I was sitting in the doctor's office the other day chatting with a man I didn't know ... polly7 Mar 2013 #317

that' really cool. loyalsister Mar 2013 #321

When are some people going to understand.. sendero Mar 2013 #3

Good post Harmony Blue Mar 2013 #21

Very well said malaise Mar 2013 #53

We are the same and interchangeable treestar Mar 2013 #190

No one has argued that men and women are "interchangable"... ljm2002 Mar 2013 #195

I think where the problem lies is folks assigning motivations to others ad hoc The Straight Story Mar 2013 #4

As a woman, I approve this message. Some vested outraged persons would do well to remember, txwhitedove Mar 2013 #11

except there was no outrage. except it was a thread straighstory put up about boobs that introduced seabeyond Mar 2013 #26

Try speaking with kind words instead of harsh. The only outrage I had read is your harsher words, txwhitedove Mar 2013 #147

were are the "unkind" words. and why is truth considered harsh, lmfao. seabeyond Mar 2013 #149

Perhaps if you took a softer tone, Z_I_Peevey Mar 2013 #152

bah hahahah. thank you so much. at first i thought this was gonna be serious seabeyond Mar 2013 #158

LOL...Thanks! whathehell Mar 2013 #168

LOL! Nice :) redqueen Mar 2013 #177

I think you were the one who brought up the doors. NaturalHigh Mar 2013 #173

What outrages me MattBaggins Mar 2013 #112

Gotcha! txwhitedove Mar 2013 #148

No you didn't MattBaggins Mar 2013 #151

Well, bless your little pea-pickin' heart. (n/t) klook Mar 2013 #155

OK now you got me MattBaggins Mar 2013 #165

Whew that's some serious bile marions ghost Mar 2013 #16

Don't think I need to change my mind The Straight Story Mar 2013 #22

"Men treat women different than they do other men." marions ghost Mar 2013 #69

It is very strange MattBaggins Mar 2013 #132

It seems to me that feminism just stalled in the 80's. redqueen Mar 2013 #141

Or told the LGBT community MattBaggins Mar 2013 #150

It didn't die out--it just morphed into Retro Sexism marions ghost Mar 2013 #281

she is so awesomely brilliant and so young. we have a lot of years of her voice. seabeyond Mar 2013 #311

The younger generation --many get it marions ghost Mar 2013 #315

a year ago or so i was bummed, looking at the state of our youthful feminism. but, seabeyond Mar 2013 #319

Let me tell you a story... ljm2002 Mar 2013 #201

Think again. perhaps you do those things because they are right alp227 Mar 2013 #208

pearls of wisdom. Whisp Mar 2013 #27

straightstory was the one that introduced the term in his OP. seabeyond Mar 2013 #32

And again, you were the one who brought up the opening of doors in that thread. NaturalHigh Mar 2013 #176

Might you be overreacting just a tad? You seem a little outraged. Squinch Mar 2013 #29

Well, my panties aren't really in a bunch at this point The Straight Story Mar 2013 #46

Except no one was finding ways to "call others sexist for anything they can." Squinch Mar 2013 #56

You wear panties? ljm2002 Mar 2013 #207

um, weren't you just complaining about people assigning motivations to others? fishwax Mar 2013 #224

Oh please MattBaggins Mar 2013 #45

Careful with sex, if it's "PIV", even consensual, it still is assualt.... snooper2 Mar 2013 #163

This message was self-deleted by its author seabeyond Mar 2013 #166

I think where the problem lies in BS distortions of what other posters have said n/t fishwax Mar 2013 #222

I am a feminist woman, and I have no problem with being treated "differently." Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #5

Great post, I could not agree more with you. XRubicon Mar 2013 #17

"I distinguish tradition and etiquette from equal pay and equal rights" MattBaggins Mar 2013 #164

+1 n/t whathehell Mar 2013 #169

Excellent post. So very well said. redqueen Mar 2013 #180

I have examined them and do not find they are sexist. (I don't know what traditions in etiquette Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #197

Actually removing your cap in doors MattBaggins Mar 2013 #211

Then don't remove your hat, dude. No one's making you. Women don't have to remove Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #259

I am not calling people sexist for "traditional good manners" MattBaggins Mar 2013 #298

Exactly. Men and women are different. There is nothing wrong with recognizing that. (nt) nessa Mar 2013 #185

Inequal pay is related to being treated differently gollygee Mar 2013 #214

Great post. Many people simply cannot tell the difference between the two TimberValley Mar 2013 #288

A majority of the men here are not hostile to feminists kdmorris Mar 2013 #6

Wise words. randome Mar 2013 #8

my bad. a man asked what it was. i provided a definition. i am the jerk. amazing. fucking amazing.nt seabeyond Mar 2013 #28

I didn't say that, seabeyond kdmorris Mar 2013 #66

this started with that. ground floor. the threads took off. men outraged by feminists outrage seabeyond Mar 2013 #74

Why the hell did "we" feel the need to do anything about benevolent sexism, seabeyond? kdmorris Mar 2013 #100

I don't feel ridiculous at all and I am a feminist. boston bean Mar 2013 #105

*I* NEVER SAID IT HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH SEABEYOND kdmorris Mar 2013 #113

I say this with all respect, please note that there are sexists on DU. nt boston bean Mar 2013 #122

Do you seriously think I don't know that? kdmorris Mar 2013 #268

In your opinion KD. boston bean Mar 2013 #322

a man asked what it was. i gave examples and definitions. outrage and lies ensued. seabeyond Mar 2013 #107

I didn't attack you (or Boston Bean or Redqueen) kdmorris Mar 2013 #276

for the record I didn't feel attacked by you. nt boston bean Mar 2013 #323

btw... this was just brought to my attention. i wanted to say, good, thanks for letting me know. seabeyond Mar 2013 #324

"equates benevolent sexism with rape apologia and victim blaming" redqueen Mar 2013 #109

You posted it, Redqueen, not me. kdmorris Mar 2013 #115

Wow. redqueen Mar 2013 #129

+1 NaturalHigh Mar 2013 #279

You calling kd a Republican now Redqueen? tkmorris Mar 2013 #139

i am pinned on a cross... meh. lol. nt seabeyond Mar 2013 #140

Ugh, no. Framing. The framing is utterly, disgustingly dishonest. And that is a right wing tactic. redqueen Mar 2013 #146

This theKed Mar 2013 #186

There are a lot of jock-strap snappers Sheldon Cooper Mar 2013 #7

Thank you for viewing this rationally marions ghost Mar 2013 #12

I haven't seen ANY man here upset with the idea that treating women differently can promote polly7 Mar 2013 #13

Because on DU, you can only discuss the actual effect of sexism boston bean Mar 2013 #14

+1 redqueen Mar 2013 #36

I think the low light of all that was when a poster Whisp Mar 2013 #39

It boggles the mind doesn't it? MattBaggins Mar 2013 #15

Who's dismissing it? Orrex Mar 2013 #18

Really? MattBaggins Mar 2013 #23

Yes. Orrex Mar 2013 #25

Look up: "broadbrush accusations and generalizations"... 99Forever Mar 2013 #19

Look up MattBaggins Mar 2013 #24

I ws working for Equal Rights... 99Forever Mar 2013 #30

oooh.... boston bean Mar 2013 #33

"Perhaps rather using alienating language" MattBaggins Mar 2013 #61

Thanks for joining a bunch... 99Forever Mar 2013 #72

I'll add it to my give a crap list MattBaggins Mar 2013 #118

Just so we're clear... Orrex Mar 2013 #34

one simple response of one example in a boob subthread that discussed benevolent sexism, used to boston bean Mar 2013 #37

Link, please? Orrex Mar 2013 #43

You don't even know how it started? boston bean Mar 2013 #50

I know exactly how it started Orrex Mar 2013 #57

amazing you, every man that started thread on doors about feminist outrage leaves out the definition seabeyond Mar 2013 #65

Are you willing to own your words or not? Orrex Mar 2013 #73

you think you have a gotcha moment? i put an example and definition. then the men start OPs saying seabeyond Mar 2013 #80

Who said that feminists are outraged? And where? And who are "we feminists" anyway? Orrex Mar 2013 #86

post after post. thread after thread. you havent read any? fine. seabeyond Mar 2013 #89

Links, please Orrex Mar 2013 #94

no. because at this point, i gotta figure you are playin in that game also. seabeyond Mar 2013 #101

So, you are free to declare my intent for me, but no one else is allowed to infer your intent? Orrex Mar 2013 #103

i am allowed to have an opinion. and i clearly put it up as my opinion. again, seabeyond Mar 2013 #111

Similarly, I can't believe that you're really the absurd caricature that you paint yourself to be Orrex Mar 2013 #119

ah, all the ready name calling posters on this thread have for us. bye. seabeyond Mar 2013 #128

Oh, please Orrex Mar 2013 #131

BRAVO!!!!!!!!! txwhitedove Mar 2013 #174

i already provided the info for you in your very long thread you deleted about doors. here is a link seabeyond Mar 2013 #54

That's not my thread Orrex Mar 2013 #64

i gave examples and definition. no opinion. no outrage. the problem? nt seabeyond Mar 2013 #68

You offered several examples; were those not your opinion? Orrex Mar 2013 #81

Was your thread like the 4th or the 5th or the 10th on the subject boston bean Mar 2013 #84

people can read it. i stand by it. ya, a game. two days of a fuckin game. i stand seabeyond Mar 2013 #85

So you own your words, but no one is allowed to cite them? Orrex Mar 2013 #92

i did not post an opinion. i posted examples and a definition. and i did not tell anyone they seabeyond Mar 2013 #104

Who's outraged? Me? You set a very low bar for what qualifies as "outraged." Orrex Mar 2013 #108

no. i didnt set the bar. others did toward any woman that tried to bring reason to the conversation seabeyond Mar 2013 #116

Well, I'm glad that we can still agree on something. Orrex Mar 2013 #123

I think we all (including the person who said it) would agree that it was an reductionist example. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #145

thank you... so much, for quiet, gentle, reason. seabeyond Mar 2013 #20

Yep. You hit the nail on the head. Thanks for this OP. k&r Little Star Mar 2013 #31

My women studies instructor back in the 1980s nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #35

oh, god, tell me again who was focusing on it? boston bean Mar 2013 #38

Go on and play along nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #42

i don't use ignore, thank you. boston bean Mar 2013 #48

Good...that is nice, I guess nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #71

yes, these men on du focused on the doors to trivialize feminism. you got it just right. seabeyond Mar 2013 #40

It wasn't just the men who found your doors example ridiculous. nt. polly7 Mar 2013 #41

so you found it ridiculous. so? boston bean Mar 2013 #44

So? I have a right to respond, as a woman .... to anything that polly7 Mar 2013 #52

And I speak for me! AS a WOMAN! I'm one too! Whoop dee doo! boston bean Mar 2013 #55

Nah ......... the response to it wasn't sexist at all. polly7 Mar 2013 #58

To you. Not to me. boston bean Mar 2013 #70

I will compare creds here nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #75

many, god damnit, but I'm on an anonymous board and i don't discuss boston bean Mar 2013 #82

I think you are alienating allies nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #87

I certainly get the feeling some are trying to alienate democrats from feminists. boston bean Mar 2013 #96

So now we switch into victim mode? nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #102

You just said I was making you one by alienating you. boston bean Mar 2013 #110

We are not talking ideas anymore nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #120

You were never talking about the idea. boston bean Mar 2013 #125

"We are not talking ideas anymore"... ljm2002 Mar 2013 #213

Comes after being accused and their use of divisive language nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #216

I'd walk down the street with you for liberal causes. boston bean Mar 2013 #217

Well that is nice nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #219

Your thoughts on this are anathema to how I feel about this whole debacle. boston bean Mar 2013 #221

You misunderstand, I will continue to fight for things like the ERA nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #226

Ok, I think it's clear that it is you who is alienating potential allies. boston bean Mar 2013 #228

Really...re-read the thread nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #230

LOL. this is almost too much. boston bean Mar 2013 #231

Well feminists have always been accused... ljm2002 Mar 2013 #233

You seem to think nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #239

We believe in the same basic goals. If you are going to allow that boston bean Mar 2013 #240

Ah feels so good to trash all three groups nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #242

you splinterist! LOL nt boston bean Mar 2013 #243

Not at all nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #247

bub bye! is it for real this time? nt boston bean Mar 2013 #248

Keep dreaming on that nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #250

You got an odd definition of "attack". I'm highly entertained as well. boston bean Mar 2013 #252

I am sure you do nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #256

LMFAO. polly7 Mar 2013 #251

Seems you've missed the point, yet again. boston bean Mar 2013 #261

Your year later apology so that you could play victim when someone reminded you of the polly7 Mar 2013 #265

You stalk me with this in every single thread you and I have a discussion in. boston bean Mar 2013 #270

Last resort?? polly7 Mar 2013 #313

Well, at least you will be safe from me in the feminism group nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #267

why would I need to be kept safe from you? nt boston bean Mar 2013 #274

You made the comment on stalking nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #278

Have you been stalking me and I didn't know it? LOL boston bean Mar 2013 #282

Whoosh nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #284

woosh.. boston bean Mar 2013 #285

"You guys really are bad about any criticism." zappaman Mar 2013 #286

"well som of us have been kicking doors open"... ljm2002 Mar 2013 #255

Well, this thread is textbook nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #257

'Victim mode'. Always !!!! nt. polly7 Mar 2013 #130

That is a right wing framing of feminism. nt boston bean Mar 2013 #135

No, it's just the truth. polly7 Mar 2013 #136

Nope, it is a right wing framing of feminism. nt boston bean Mar 2013 #137

lmao. You can talk about flamefests. polly7 Mar 2013 #77

I don't disapprove of discussion taking place. boston bean Mar 2013 #79

Could'a fooled me! lol. nt. polly7 Mar 2013 #88

I suppose that was pretty easy to do. nt boston bean Mar 2013 #91

Oh, ZING!!!!! nt. polly7 Mar 2013 #95

BAM! nt boston bean Mar 2013 #97

kapow? lol. nt seabeyond Mar 2013 #124

The reason men and women latched onto the door example is to avoid the point. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #142

You don't know that at all. polly7 Mar 2013 #143

That strains credibility. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #153

There were hundreds of posts responding to the concept that holding polly7 Mar 2013 #157

The posters collectively were responding to a concept of their own invention. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #162

Bullshit. polly7 Mar 2013 #218

Welcome to short attention span theater. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #260

Eh ....... seeing the same old lies about what actually did or didn't start all of this polly7 Mar 2013 #314

yep Little Star Mar 2013 #203

No they did not, it was such a bad frame nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #47

What I found piddly and trivial boston bean Mar 2013 #49

Show me proof that the concept was trivialized nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #59

oh my... hard core activist is someone giving a well known example boston bean Mar 2013 #63

A concept that is gender neutral nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #67

The idea that a woman only needs the door held for them, is sexist. boston bean Mar 2013 #76

Alas that is not the interpretation any longer nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #83

Ah, it was a simple response. boston bean Mar 2013 #90

Women do that to men nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #93

I suggest you open your mind to the concept boston bean Mar 2013 #99

I suggest the problem is real, I know the concept, nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #106

It was a god damned comment in a subthread about womens boobs. boston bean Mar 2013 #117

Have a good day nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #126

'I have said my last on this" zappaman Mar 2013 #205

Why are you being an ass about it? MattBaggins Mar 2013 #235

I love the attacks nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #244

You are as guilty MattBaggins Mar 2013 #253

Hmm hmm nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #273

I find it exceedingly bizarre, ronnie624 Mar 2013 #159

And to have a few DUers calling the people trying to clarify that fact 'trolls'... redqueen Mar 2013 #183

What art of gender neutral are you also having a problem understanding? nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #194

My understanding is complete. ronnie624 Mar 2013 #200

Because the frame does not work any longer nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #202

You just went and made the point we are making MattBaggins Mar 2013 #249

And you kept using a frame that no longer exists or works nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #254

Historical frame works are excellent for MattBaggins Mar 2013 #299

It worked so well it was laughed out of town nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #300

Post removed Post removed Mar 2013 #301

Ah, back to attack mode. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #303

You are not as clever as you imagine MattBaggins Mar 2013 #304

Ah stage three nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #305

You do think your clever MattBaggins Mar 2013 #306

My apologies. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #309

"I expect this observation to be...once again, destroyed at the event horizon." zappaman Mar 2013 #307

It is not always gender neutral MattBaggins Mar 2013 #245

Easy. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #167

+1 Little Star Mar 2013 #204

it was examples and a definition. the reaction played many. you participate. i stand with the OP seabeyond Mar 2013 #51

Yep. And that says it all, right there. nt redqueen Mar 2013 #60

Move on...at this point that is what you should do nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #62

some people are willing to sit in a lie. i have never been willing to do that. seabeyond Mar 2013 #98

What other progressive issues do we have to frame just so for other DUers? redqueen Mar 2013 #134

That's a very good question. redqueen Mar 2013 #78

It is an excellent question, and bears some relationship, I suspect, Z_I_Peevey Mar 2013 #121

bingo Little Star Mar 2013 #127

I don't know why just acknowledging that it exists... Iggo Mar 2013 #144

"a similar thing happened during the recent discussions about white privilege" redqueen Mar 2013 #154

Why the outrage from progressive men? marions ghost Mar 2013 #114

For some men, feminism is simply another name for chivalry. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #133

Thanks, it's always refreshing when men express puzzlement over the same things we Zorra Mar 2013 #138

I think it crosses the line between fighting for a cause, and fighting just because. Ian David Mar 2013 #156

That would be a good observation, IF there were a single person here that holds that view. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #160

Don't make me name names. n/t Ian David Mar 2013 #172

Home run! NaturalHigh Mar 2013 #220

Sexism trolling posts like this one show a gross level of immaturity. TheBlackAdder Mar 2013 #161

+1 whatchamacallit Mar 2013 #182

"Sexism trolling posts like this one show a gross level of immaturity." MadrasT Mar 2013 #209

"Pot. Kettle." is the pinnacle of childish. TheBlackAdder Mar 2013 #225

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL. nt boston bean Mar 2013 #232

About the right amount. :-) nt TheBlackAdder Mar 2013 #236

You totally miss the point. Notafraidtoo Mar 2013 #325

I get your point, and I HAVE YOUR NUMBER! nt TheBlackAdder Mar 2013 #327

Some people like drama. Apophis Mar 2013 #170

Why are some feminists so upset with the reality that there are differences between sexes and leeroysphitz Mar 2013 #171

Fail. whathehell Mar 2013 #175

I hadn't realized you were the elected spokesperson. n/t leeroysphitz Mar 2013 #192

Well, you learn something new everyday, don't you? whathehell Mar 2013 #258

Now you're in trouble. NaturalHigh Mar 2013 #178

The sexes have a lot more in common than they do differences treestar Mar 2013 #193

Our differences go well beyond plumbing and are at least as important as leeroysphitz Mar 2013 #196

They do not treestar Mar 2013 #198

They do. leeroysphitz Mar 2013 #206

Your type of reasoning is what will prevent it from happening. nt boston bean Mar 2013 #212

Tks! But your reasonable post is addressed to those who just love making fun of this bettyellen Mar 2013 #179

So what do we call women who treat other women differently? We madmom Mar 2013 #184

The 'Working Mom' versus 'Stay At Home Mom' rivalry comes to mind. nt TheBlackAdder Mar 2013 #187

Equal opportunity jerks treestar Mar 2013 #191

Also sexist. MadrasT Mar 2013 #210

Great post treestar Mar 2013 #188

I miss Meta. Comrade Grumpy Mar 2013 #215

+1 zappaman Mar 2013 #223

Im a woman and i cant do everything a guy does. darkangel218 Mar 2013 #227

Where did you learn this? boston bean Mar 2013 #229

How about life experience?? darkangel218 Mar 2013 #234

Are you saying that you couldn't do these things if you chose to? nt boston bean Mar 2013 #237

No i couldnt. darkangel218 Mar 2013 #269

How about women that choose to? boston bean Mar 2013 #272

Thats up to them, but they dont speak for everyone. darkangel218 Mar 2013 #277

In essence though you are speaking for all women boston bean Mar 2013 #280

Im not including all women, you are. darkangel218 Mar 2013 #287

I'm sorry darkangel, you spoke very broadly boston bean Mar 2013 #290

If men were taught to nurture.. darkangel218 Mar 2013 #292

interesting. i did not realize seabeyond Mar 2013 #318

They make pink wrenches and hammers. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #266

Yah i know. i got one for xmas :/ darkangel218 Mar 2013 #275

"... It's not sexism. Just like women are better at nurturing..." lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #263

i'm a woman and i can't do everything some other women can do , there are things i can do that guys JI7 Mar 2013 #320

Ever been to the Men's forums here? MoclipsHumptulips Mar 2013 #238

For what? nt. polly7 Mar 2013 #241

Please educate us. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #262

but I have been to Moclips/Humptulips though.. recently even.. got some nice razor clams last weeken opiate69 Mar 2013 #289

Good for you, wasn't last weekend the last clam tide of the year? lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #293

thanks.. made an awesome white sauce with them.. opiate69 Mar 2013 #294

Property is pretty cheap, but you gotta BYOE (bring your own employment) lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #297

Holy shit! Dont tell my wife about that.. she`ll be making it happen hell or highwater lol opiate69 Mar 2013 #302

You know, some people don't like you to hold the door for them. Rex Mar 2013 #246

I propose that we all fight to get Congress to pass Vinnie From Indy Mar 2013 #264

Maybe after the sequester is over. NaturalHigh Mar 2013 #283

There is a very good case to be made that treating the genders differently IS sexism. n/t lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #271

In a thread that said that men who like big boobs are sexist... NaturalHigh Mar 2013 #291

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Mar 2013 #308

I haven't seen that... NaturalHigh Mar 2013 #310

I live in Orange County and I definitely do not like how I am treated and viewed culturally here. dogknob Mar 2013 #316

Its just the 2010s...a transitionary period... McDiggy Mar 2013 #326