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patrice

(47,992 posts)

163. Truth is served by freedom and vice versa. Being capable of chosing either to stay in

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 01:38 PM

Mar 2013

a relationship (to a church in this instance) or to leave is what makes it possible for that relationship to live, no matter what one chooses. That's not a guarantee, but it does make creative potential possible.

A lot of people have become reactionaries relative to any power, limiting their perceptions of how to assert their own powers only to the power to reject others. There are some grounds for that reaction in concerns that one may lose what is most authentically one's self in any kind of relationship to strong/powerful others, but that is not necessarily so. The dynamics of two (or more) power positions can make a strong person even stronger. Struggle clarifies values and commitment in service to even small potentialities for change that would not have been evoked if the particular individual who CHOSE to remain in the relationship, CHOOSING not to leave it, had not done so.

Yes, to me, the element of choice is vital, because without that freedom, or at least as much of it as possible, the good effects of a decision, one way or the other to stay or go, are warped by unrecognized slavery. My ideal is to free one's self as much as possible to be capable of authentically saying either yes or no.

If people feel as though they don't have that freedom, that they MUST stay or they MUST go, at minimum, the recognition of that bondage is a good thing which can allow what good may come of a thing by not lying about its price.

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This anti-Catholic crap is getting to be annoying [View all] King_Klonopin Mar 2013 OP

well said! liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #1

kr HiPointDem Mar 2013 #2

The church's official positions are homophobic, bigoted, and sexist. NYC Liberal Mar 2013 #3

Most religions are the same. dkf Mar 2013 #34

Yes they are whathehell Mar 2013 #39

No, we criticise Islam here too; the difference is the media is in love with Catholicism muriel_volestrangler Mar 2013 #76

I'm well aware of what "we" do here, having been part whathehell Mar 2013 #237

The end of the protestant majority was due to the increase in the non-Christians, not catholics muriel_volestrangler Mar 2013 #238

Okay. whathehell Mar 2013 #239

If someone condemns a Muslim's or Catholic's humanity cpwm17 Mar 2013 #84

Many religions, orthodox Judaism is one, espouse women as a lower form of humanity whathehell Mar 2013 #236

I'm not demanding anyone do anything. NYC Liberal Mar 2013 #44

Good luck criticizing most of America for being part of an evil religion. dkf Mar 2013 #49

There are 1.2 billion Catholics on the planet Tobin S. Mar 2013 #50

It's certainly not a majority. dkf Mar 2013 #57

A majority of believers, no. But a majority of Christians, yes. trotsky Mar 2013 #85

When someone posts comments to the effect that, by attending Mass, King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #96

It isn't about being personally guilty or even "giving tacit approval" of things. NYC Liberal Mar 2013 #106

You should understand, there is A LOT of resentment of the way the Church has shoved ITS policies Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #173

I am not the Catholic Church King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #177

You complained about "shoving beliefs" down people's throats. Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #183

well said, and it needed saying. ChairmanAgnostic Mar 2013 #217

Try this...be critical of the hierarchy nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #220

Yes, you will. In fact, it's something that I've always said. NYC Liberal Mar 2013 #99

I can't demand much, but since you brought it up... backscatter712 Mar 2013 #126

When you criticize Teapartiers and GOP you aren't criticizing a group of ALLIES. pnwmom Mar 2013 #137

So if a Democrat joins an anti-choice organization, or an anti-gay organization -- NYC Liberal Mar 2013 #151

Most Catholics grew up with the Church, they didn't suddenly decide to join it as adults. pnwmom Mar 2013 #165

You see, this is the problem - your belief that "it's part of the DNA" muriel_volestrangler Mar 2013 #184

If it's not part of the DNA, it is, like some other aspects of upbringing, part of conditioning whathehell Mar 2013 #241

Anyone who's been conditioned as a child by a homophobic organisation muriel_volestrangler Mar 2013 #242

When I was growing up in the Sixties, the church didn't even mention homosexuality. whathehell Mar 2013 #244

Well, the RCC's attitude to women does leave a lot to be desired too muriel_volestrangler Mar 2013 #245

No kidding... whathehell Mar 2013 #246

No need to apologise - I agree those are at least as bad, and often worse muriel_volestrangler Mar 2013 #247

Well, thanks for saying that. whathehell Mar 2013 #248

"Part of the DNA"? No. NYC Liberal Mar 2013 #189

That may explain your vehemence then. pnwmom Mar 2013 #203

I never demanded anything of anyone. NYC Liberal Mar 2013 #204

Thank you.....n/t whathehell Mar 2013 #240

Not Catholic, but couldn't agree more. TDale313 Mar 2013 #4

no it's very different because this is a progressive board.. Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #11

Thank you...I'm glad the sane, non-haters are beginning to speak up. whathehell Mar 2013 #40

dont walk down the garbage-filled sidewalk sigmasix Mar 2013 #5

I agree 100% olddots Mar 2013 #14

You have to understand that a lot of the anti-Catholic feeling JDPriestly Mar 2013 #6

Well, I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition! TDale313 Mar 2013 #7

That's rather like being angry with the Federal government today, because of Sherman's march struggle4progress Mar 2013 #8

Lots of Southerners were when I was a young girl. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #10

I'm angry with the Church (the Church, not DU Catholics) for what it does today Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #227

I was responding to the prior poster's remarks about events centuries ago struggle4progress Mar 2013 #230

Right. But I'm saying, the anti-Catholic Church feeling is fueled by its actions today. Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #231

Every religion has had its share of being persecuted. King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #19

I'm reminding you so that you can put some of the intolerance you feel directed JDPriestly Mar 2013 #26

Why do you slap the label of "intolerance" on me? King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #100

You say you are not ashamed of being Catholic. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #233

Karma? We justify present day bigotry *against individuals* nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #224

Today's bigotry is not justified by history, but it is explained by it. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #232

Thanks. You can add Oliver Cromwell to the pantheon of Protestant murderers of Catholics too whathehell Mar 2013 #43

Mary wasn't killed for her Catholicism atreides1 Mar 2013 #83

As I recall, the suspicion that Mary was part of the plot to kill Elizabeth was never proven whathehell Mar 2013 #213

But it's not just about history: In Same-Sex Marriage Fight, Catholic Church Gives More Than $1 Mi muriel_volestrangler Mar 2013 #81

My grandmother left the Catholic Church when... TreasonousBastard Mar 2013 #20

I hope that we will really see change especially with regard to women, JDPriestly Mar 2013 #23

I'll never live to see a female Pope, or even a bishop, but... TreasonousBastard Mar 2013 #32

I sincerely hope that the promise of the Catholic Church will become reality for JDPriestly Mar 2013 #37

My inlaws left the church when the parish priest told her RainDog Mar 2013 #36

I've heard many such stories, and... TreasonousBastard Mar 2013 #41

Yeah, too bad Savita Halappanavar RainDog Mar 2013 #170

My friend's father in law told her that her parents were in Hell because they died Catholics.. whathehell Mar 2013 #45

This sort of thing fries me... TreasonousBastard Mar 2013 #51

Yes, it's terrible, isn't it? whathehell Mar 2013 #215

Karma is supposed to boomerang back on the one who King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #98

How about for those who allowed pedophiles to keep molesting children? How about... Moonwalk Mar 2013 #161

The issue isn't whether the Catholic Church is guilty of doing bad things King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #168

So, you wouldn't criticize a Southern who had a confederate flag and belonged to... Moonwalk Mar 2013 #187

But you are attacking the southerner who is standing to the guy nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #223

My mom grew up in the 1930s and remembers the KKK reviling Roman Catholics Hekate Mar 2013 #9

The Catholic Church has been its own worst enemy in this respect for JDPriestly Mar 2013 #12

Do you know how many, especially in the South, opposed Jack Kennedy because of anti-Catholicism? whathehell Mar 2013 #46

This message was self-deleted by its author Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #180

Actually many of the people you're thinking of might've been raised Catholics themselves ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #13

no, in the heyday of the klan, it was a fundamentalist protestant movement of struggle4progress Mar 2013 #17

The heyday of the klan is not today ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #86

Hekate's remark concerned the 1930s, a time still in living memory. struggle4progress Mar 2013 #88

But all of this must've ceased before the 80s ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #89

I think that after WWII a certain fraction of Americans set out to fight prejudice struggle4progress Mar 2013 #93

I'm not anti Catholic. ForgoTheConsequence Mar 2013 #133

I have some issues with them: I don't understand their attitudes towards sexuality, struggle4progress Mar 2013 #152

That's a very good analysis. The extermination camps of WWII were a shock to the conscience... Hekate Mar 2013 #175

That happened in the teens and 1920s in my father's town as well. greatauntoftriplets Mar 2013 #78

I see what you did there. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #15

Um. You have confused fundamentalist Protestant ignorance with Roman Catholic theology Hekate Mar 2013 #25

Pretty clever there, especially for one who uses the name of a Pagan Goddess, commonly adopted Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #30

Golly Hekate Mar 2013 #38

Wanna see the same people doing this get all freaked out? The Straight Story Mar 2013 #16

Best post of the week! Niceguy1 Mar 2013 #21

Good post, TSS Hekate Mar 2013 #28

Spot on. dkf Mar 2013 #31

K/R~~~ LovingA2andMI Mar 2013 #33

using hatred against Catholics to legitimize hatred against Muslims both which happens on DU all Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #35

So you are saying Straight Story supports the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? dkf Mar 2013 #47

I'm saying that legitimizing bigotry against Muslims makes waging war on them a lot easier Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #48

Couldn't disagree more leftynyc Mar 2013 #52

So it's never occurred to you that our news media is biased AGAINST Muslims? CrawlingChaos Mar 2013 #61

Oh brother leftynyc Mar 2013 #79

Again, thanks for pointing out the obvious bias as to who "gets a pass" and who does not. n/t whathehell Mar 2013 #214

So if Catholics dislike homosexuality and Muslims kill homosexuals, who should be called on it? dkf Mar 2013 #53

to simply say that Catholics dislike Homosexuality and Muslims Kill homosexuals is as bigoted and Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #56

So am I imagining that homosexual sex is a death penalty offense in 5 Muslim countries? dkf Mar 2013 #60

I'll put it this way - I lived in the Middle East 26 years and I certainly knew lots and lots of Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #62

But we are talking about institutions and criticizing people for belonging to them... dkf Mar 2013 #63

well obviously Islam does not get a pass on DU - one would have to be extremely unobservant to Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #65

Lol sorry but I have to chuckle at the idea that people are sensitive to others backgrounds and dkf Mar 2013 #67

Where do you draw the line between legitimising bigotry and attacking it? Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2013 #55

it is a rather recent event even in the Western world that enlightened attitudes have arisen Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #58

I agree with most (not all) of that, but it looks like an attempt to avoid answering the question. Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2013 #181

I don't know how you figure that Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #199

My question was "how far do you consider it legitimate to go in criticising or attacking Islam?" Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2013 #200

I think one should exercise the same caution about stirring up religions, ethnic and sectarian Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #202

I completely disagree that opinions are due the same respect that skin colours are. Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2013 #211

Every single person here knows that preaching hatred against Muslim has gone on with impunity over Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #54

You are right, of course CrawlingChaos Mar 2013 #59

Dumb comparison michigandem58 Mar 2013 #69

"we don't really believe the BS principles we expound upon so often as liberals." sibelian Mar 2013 #74

Excellent post. cordelia Mar 2013 #75

Challenge accepted. nt Zorra Mar 2013 #112

all deity based religions are equally vile. All of them should be discouraged. bowens43 Mar 2013 #129

Nonsense. Some are far, far worse than others. Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2013 #182

Done. Thread is below. Zorra Mar 2013 #147

Islam just called. Said to tell you "Welcome to DU" Scootaloo Mar 2013 #18

HA !!! King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #22

yep Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #27

This anti-Catholic crap is WELL EARNED by the RCC. nt valerief Mar 2013 #24

If it's annoying, ignore it. dogknob Mar 2013 #29

Anger, anger everywhere... King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #103

You know I like you nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #119

Thanks for the help King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #145

CFC every year we have the debate nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #146

BTW, did you know we now have the Interfaith Group... TreasonousBastard Mar 2013 #42

could you post a link please Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #64

OK... TreasonousBastard Mar 2013 #72

Fair enough... sendero Mar 2013 #66

It's not just the crimes done by certain individuals in the RCC. Ikonoklast Mar 2013 #68

Give us real quotes instead of ones you made up michigandem58 Mar 2013 #70

I'm not Catholic but I agree with you totally and I'm glad you said it. nt Raine Mar 2013 #71

I treat the Catholic Church the same way I treat any other religion. hobbit709 Mar 2013 #73

I agree. My hope is we get some direction from the admins that this kind of bigotry needs to stop stevenleser Mar 2013 #77

it isn't bigotry to criticize error datasuspect Mar 2013 #80

I never said it was. It's bigotry to use broad brush negative generalizations for people. nt stevenleser Mar 2013 #91

are you sure about that? datasuspect Mar 2013 #92

That is the very definition of bigotry : King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #107

this is the very definition of bigotry/bigot datasuspect Mar 2013 #111

Exactly. stevenleser Mar 2013 #197

well, two of them might be quite true. ChairmanAgnostic Mar 2013 #219

Nice straw man. I hope <> "Attempt to control". nt stevenleser Mar 2013 #138

A small minority? ForgoTheConsequence Mar 2013 #117

"Deal with it and own your actions." - I am not Catholic. Push that somewhere else.nt stevenleser Mar 2013 #142

I have a request. trotsky Mar 2013 #82

You know, there is a Spanish saying that applies here nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #109

How can I demand it stop when no one gives evidence that it's happening? trotsky Mar 2013 #113

But people have nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #115

"Perhaps not in the words you'd like" trotsky Mar 2013 #122

In this very thread nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #124

I just took some time to read that post very carefully. trotsky Mar 2013 #130

Given the OP had the exact same interpretation nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #132

I don't think the insult was necessary. trotsky Mar 2013 #135

As I said, have an excellent day nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #140

I'm sorry you deem it so unreasonable to expect people to back up their claims. trotsky Mar 2013 #166

It's not unpleasant nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #167

I've merely asked you questions trotsky Mar 2013 #171

I answered, they were insufficient nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #174

No, you didn't answer. trotsky Mar 2013 #176

Welcome to the list! zappaman Mar 2013 #207

+1,000,000,000,000 HuckleB Mar 2013 #193

It has nothing to do with being Catholic. Ian David Mar 2013 #87

Sorry. Nice try, but you are not the victim here. Zorra Mar 2013 #90

I'm not Catholic but the hate towards you guys is so palpable it makes my skin crawl.... Rowdyboy Mar 2013 #94

Wah wah wah. ForgoTheConsequence Mar 2013 #118

Well said. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #95

I don't hate Catholics, I do hate the Catholic Church Leadership Marrah_G Mar 2013 #97

This is not about the individual people; the Catholic Church has a huge footprint magical thyme Mar 2013 #101

"I don't shove my Catholicism down anyone's throat" truebrit71 Mar 2013 #102

Your being very selective in how you chose to read my OP King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #121

I am not recommending that you abandon your faith. That is totally different.... truebrit71 Mar 2013 #154

I hope you don't contribute to the BBC. Comrade Grumpy Mar 2013 #143

Anti-Catholic or anti-Catholicism? There is a difference. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #104

Hold it, I was told by some that it is your imagination nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #105

I hope you cry for all discrimination. ForgoTheConsequence Mar 2013 #136

Conflating is not helping you nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #139

I'll take that as a concession. ForgoTheConsequence Mar 2013 #141

You are right, defending bigotry against posters is hard to do nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #144

"No one expects the Progressive Inquisition!" Common Sense Party Mar 2013 #108

This is like white folks crying about racism. nt Walk away Mar 2013 #110

Haha so true. ForgoTheConsequence Mar 2013 #120

Plenty of people defend leftynyc Mar 2013 #235

Wonderfully stated, King. Thank you from my Irish Catholic heart. corneliamcgillicutty Mar 2013 #114

Well, Ms McGillicutty King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #149

I wish I had stopped after reading corneliamcgillicutty Mar 2013 #178

Oh yes, My Dear King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #186

Give me a break. ForgoTheConsequence Mar 2013 #116

And one way to change it King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #128

Sure pick and choose what you believe. ForgoTheConsequence Mar 2013 #134

If I stop donating money, will that make me acceptable as a Catholic? King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #155

That sounds more like wanting to stay Christian, but not Catholic ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #160

How's that changing thing working out? ohheckyeah Mar 2013 #148

Is that you, Sarah ? King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #157

seriously.... ohheckyeah Mar 2013 #159

The new head guy thinks gay marriage is Satan's work. I don't see change at the top. Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #229

The Catholic church's bigotry and misogyny is getting really annoying. Apophis Mar 2013 #123

Careful. ForgoTheConsequence Mar 2013 #125

+1 darkangel218 Mar 2013 #162

If the "Catholic Church" were called the "Catholic Party" or "CatholicPAC", NYC Liberal Mar 2013 #190

Agreed. Apophis Mar 2013 #192

Indeed. Indeed. Indeed. HuckleB Mar 2013 #195

the whining about the so called 'anti catholic-crap' is getting annoying. bowens43 Mar 2013 #127

Annoying? Insulting? Try growing up in a church that only sees you as a future brood mare. LeftyMom Mar 2013 #131

The Catholic Church recently has gotten far more in your face HockeyMom Mar 2013 #150

The RCC and Evangelicals are determined to turn this nation into a Christian theocracy. Dawson Leery Mar 2013 #153

They excommunicated John Kerry as a tacit endorsement of warmonger Bush Kolesar Mar 2013 #158

I read DU for hours per day and don't see the anti-Catholic crap you claim Kolesar Mar 2013 #156

Here's a beauty for ya: King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #164

Some folks are just incapable of seeing them nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #169

As you seek, so shall you find Kolesar Mar 2013 #188

It's called find an anecdote and generalize from there. HuckleB Mar 2013 #196

The accusation that I feel "persecuted", or am acting the "victim" King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #212

Truth is served by freedom and vice versa. Being capable of chosing either to stay in patrice Mar 2013 #163

I posted the same thing in GD last week. It was locked. NaturalHigh Mar 2013 #172

I have a question for Catholics Dragonbreathp9d Mar 2013 #179

As a former Catholic school grad of 12 years HockeyMom Mar 2013 #191

I don't really consider stating an opinion an act of madmom Mar 2013 #185

The "Yeah for the NEW POPE!" posts are what need to go. HuckleB Mar 2013 #194

"Not ashamed"? Perhaps you should be. mr blur Mar 2013 #198

"Christian privilege"? What Christian privilege? cordelia Mar 2013 #221

From where I sit, as an Anglican . . . markpkessinger Mar 2013 #201

that's exactly what the thrust of the "accusations" have been RainDog Mar 2013 #206

Thanks for a thoughtful response. King_Klonopin Mar 2013 #210

What next..... whistler162 Mar 2013 #205

Catholic shmatholic tabasco Mar 2013 #208

I would be more impressed if you were to tell us that you were working to rhett o rick Mar 2013 #209

There ARE pedophile priests in the Church, ChairmanAgnostic Mar 2013 #216

Its easy to bash Catholics.. DCBob Mar 2013 #218

Methinks the Irish may have a different opinion. ChairmanAgnostic Mar 2013 #222

Im talking about people who are Catholics, not the church. DCBob Mar 2013 #225

I really don't care what the Catholic Church thinks about any matter... Not Me Mar 2013 #226

The Pope, the hierarchy, and the theology should be bashed. backscatter712 Mar 2013 #228

it's not anti catholic really upi402 Mar 2013 #234

I have family members who order dominoes pizza, eat at Chik- Fillet loyalsister Mar 2013 #243

I congratulated you on your new pope in another thread but... Jasana Mar 2013 #249