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ButterflyBlood

(12,644 posts)

194. Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a Lutheran

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 09:11 PM

Mar 2013

I'd say that certainly proves they were not all anti-Semites or Nazi sympathizers. Of course neither him nor the mentioned ones lived in the 15th century. The Popes of the time's opinions were certainly much closer to Luther's than of Bonhoeffer or any of the priests mentioned.

The rest of your assumptions about Luther are ludicrous as he didn't even want a schism, but just sought to reform the Church at the time, and his theological views were in many ways much closer to Catholicism than modern day Protestantism. Yes he was an unquestionable bigot and what he said about Jews was disgusting and reprehensible. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the modern day ELCA. The Catholic Church's modern day bigotry is a factor. I'd much rather take a group that ordains women and accepts gays regardless of if some guy was an asshole 5 centuries ago. You might as well argue blacks should vote for the "party of Lincoln".

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Can anyone point me to any actual persecution or mass discrimination of Catholics in the US today? [View all] ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 OP

bye-bye liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #1

+1 No Vested Interest Mar 2013 #2

Yep Union Scribe Mar 2013 #31

So, in other words, you can't name anything Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #117

+1 truebrit71 Mar 2013 #226

My how liberal at heart you are! Rex Mar 2013 #100

thank you for posting this dsc Mar 2013 #3

There is no persecution of or mass discrimination against Catholics in the US today cthulu2016 Mar 2013 #4

Someone recently posted a list of "discriminated groups" that included both ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #5

That was me nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #63

In the 70s I would still occasionally hear stories about how the priests were having sex with HiPointDem Mar 2013 #24

A priest having sex with a nun? That definitely doesn't happen! nt TheBlackAdder Mar 2013 #78

ha. ha. yeah, all priests are gay. ha. ha. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #83

I'm gay, and you took that wrong. Occulus Mar 2013 #167

There is one Catholic guy who really fits the bill... Archae Mar 2013 #6

As Bill Maher said, the Catholic League is "one guy with a FAX machine". Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #13

some of them are upset to find out not everyone is on board with them Skittles Mar 2013 #7

Though not today ( maybe) Catholics were very persicuted in the past olddots Mar 2013 #8

Those memories don't need to fade considering that no one has them ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #9

The Klan, when most influential in the 20s, pushed anti-Catholicism struggle4progress Mar 2013 #17

Agreed Sherman A1 Mar 2013 #18

Yeah...didn't people like not think Kenney was electable because he was Catholic? Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #27

The Klan is mostly southern baptist. They have always hated....well, everyone. loudsue Mar 2013 #34

Indiana had the largest Klan organization of any state in the "Invisible Empire" era in the 20s, struggle4progress Mar 2013 #35

You've never lived in Indiana Kolesar Mar 2013 #102

The question under consideration is: what fraction of Indiana is Southern Baptist? struggle4progress Mar 2013 #131

Not quite; they didn't hate WHITE PROTESTANTS. WinkyDink Mar 2013 #45

A cross was burned in my Grandparents yard TexasProgresive Mar 2013 #41

They tried burning a cross in my (white) Grandparent's yard in the 1930s. ieoeja Mar 2013 #54

The KKK burned a cross in the field across from my maternal grandparents' farm house amandabeech Mar 2013 #202

Nice that your Catholic relatives were more tolerant than some of mine ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #205

I've heard about family stories like yours and I consider myself lucky. amandabeech Mar 2013 #208

Actually I don't know ANYONE in my age group who identifies as Catholic, so I don't think it matters ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #209

I hope that the booming churches are not actually personal fiefs of very conservative amandabeech Mar 2013 #210

None of that is the modern day ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #48

It wasn't that long ago. People still alive remember it. struggle4progress Mar 2013 #49

I live in an area where Catholics are actually Klan members. gordianot Mar 2013 #53

F*wittedness and a*holery seem to afflict a certain portion of the entire population of the world, struggle4progress Mar 2013 #61

I used to frequent a restaurant that in the corner had a small hook in the corner. gordianot Mar 2013 #69

I well remember the anti-Catholic rhetoric about JFK. greatauntoftriplets Mar 2013 #92

no, actually, fairly widespread anti-catholicism lasted long past the civil war. HiPointDem Mar 2013 #25

like slavery BainsBane Mar 2013 #30

I was born in the80s and never ONCE dealt with discrimination against Catholics ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #50

The Idea that because one person born in the 80's No Vested Interest Mar 2013 #97

Oh my, all the way to the 1960s at least nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #64

That doesn't sound like it'd even be enforcable at the time ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #66

Oh they did nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #67

How would they identify a potential buyer as Catholic? ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #77

They did nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #79

Can you provide links to these allegations? ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #86

Restrictive covenants Generic Other Mar 2013 #187

I'm aware those existed, but as noted, they refer to RACE ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #195

Not sure that people wouldn't discriminate based on names Generic Other Mar 2013 #196

But people who converted would still have those names ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #198

You know what...go to your local library nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #219

Why should anyone have to hide who or what they are in order to buy a house? sabrina 1 Mar 2013 #119

Would any Catholic running for President today have a problem because they are Catholic? ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #122

If they were a Liberal Catholic, they might, see Kerry. sabrina 1 Mar 2013 #129

Why would a liberal Catholic be running as a Republican? ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #183

You could ask the same question about any oppressed group in this country who have fought sabrina 1 Mar 2013 #191

Against blacks of course not, but against Catholics, certainly ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #193

Why? Today, in 27 States it is legal to discriminate against LGBT people in housing. Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #229

I like vague generalizations nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #238

Restrictive covenants became uneforceable in the 1960s with enforcement of the original amandabeech Mar 2013 #214

I just remember the case nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #218

In 27 States it is legal today to discriminate against LGBT in housing. Today. Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #230

That would be 1968 vintage with the establishment of the Fair Housing Act. Luminous Animal Mar 2013 #228

Actually, my mother was a victim of anti-Catholic bigotry c.1949 - hedgehog Mar 2013 #152

That's still 64 years ago ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #155

" If you it asks you for religion on the application form you could simply lie or "decline to state" hedgehog Mar 2013 #164

64 years ago you are still capable of lying on the forms ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #166

�Vas you dere, Sharlie?� hedgehog Mar 2013 #171

Of course things have improved. I'm just wondering why the time means one couldn't lie on the form. ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #173

People knew back then, from your name, the schools you went to, hedgehog Mar 2013 #175

What if you converted? nt ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #176

You mean, avoid prejudice against Catholics by ceasing to be a Catholic? hedgehog Mar 2013 #179

Since I converted myself WITHOUT any discrimination, I don't see that as an awful proposition ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #182

Things have radically changed nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #189

I'm breaking my recently self imposed vacation on posting life long demo Mar 2013 #227

Thank you for your reasoned statement No Vested Interest Mar 2013 #232

I've actually been quite a bit more mild than plenty of other people ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #235

And let's remember that the Catholic Church persecuted non-Catholics JDPriestly Mar 2013 #11

How long is the... MicaelS Mar 2013 #57

It's silly, but it's being used more as a defense of Catholicism here ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #60

Probably really, really long depending on the degree of tolerance and acceptance JDPriestly Mar 2013 #160

What do you mean by "persecuted" JDPriestly Mar 2013 #12

In the us it took the form nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #72

How do you deny Catholics service at eating establishments? ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #84

My lord, should we recommend some history books? nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #154

Then I'm legitimately curious ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #156

Very easy, people self identified nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #159

That sounds more like straight racism than anti-Catholicism ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #161

No, it was bigotry against papist. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #168

So let's say one of those immigrants converted ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #172

In the 19th century you were no longer a Catholic nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #180

I'm not even 30, and I live in Minneapolis ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #181

That explains it. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #184

"Tribes of New York is a good movie." zappaman Mar 2013 #186

"Denial of service at eating establishments was also common" zappaman Mar 2013 #99

So it seems the current "persection" of Catholics amounts Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #114

Maryland was Catholic as I understand it. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #121

I can relate to that pretty well ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #126

Separate issue separation of church and state nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #157

Sorry. I disagree. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #199

Misunderstood. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #201

I agree with this: JDPriestly Mar 2013 #203

Yup, but I want to separate what we are seeing here on the ol' DU nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #204

I've read that the strong prejudice against the Irish, the French Cajuns, and the Polish aint_no_life_nowhere Mar 2013 #128

Yes. And think about the schism in Ireland between Protestants and Catholics, JDPriestly Mar 2013 #169

I can assure you the latter part is not true ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #174

You may be right and, if so, I apologize for the wrong information. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #197

It comes down to something really, really, simple - called principle The Straight Story Mar 2013 #10

I agree. Niceguy1 Mar 2013 #14

how many of those priests are women? Skittles Mar 2013 #16

My god...the irony. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #28

The Catholic Church is perceived as a monolithic entity. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #136

Is that needed in order to demonstrate civility toward DU'ers who are Catholic? Behind the Aegis Mar 2013 #15

Thank you. n/t pnwmom Mar 2013 #21

Good post. Bobbie Jo Mar 2013 #52

Yup nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #62

no, but there's a lot of ugly bigotry against Catholics here, honey. cali Mar 2013 #19

After Two Thousand Years Le Taz Hot Mar 2013 #20

Catholics were a key group SUPPORTING marriage equality in the state of Washington. pnwmom Mar 2013 #22

We're talking about two different things here. Le Taz Hot Mar 2013 #26

As the nun said on 60 Minutes last night, "I AM the Church." pnwmom Mar 2013 #59

There is a hierachy in the Catholic Church Le Taz Hot Mar 2013 #90

It's funny how much more recognition outsiders give to the self-appointed hierarchy pnwmom Mar 2013 #177

Which was, of course, Le Taz Hot Mar 2013 #200

No, she isn't, at least judging by what it officially stands for. alarimer Mar 2013 #120

Yes, she is, according to Vatican 2 and the Catholics who accepted it. nt pnwmom Mar 2013 #178

So then why do those voters stay Catholic? ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #42

Most Catholics would rather try to change the Church from within. pnwmom Mar 2013 #55

I never got that impression growing up ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #82

Feminists, try to find a Christian church that does NOT have an all-male Trinity. Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #212

Sure ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #221

Where is that taught in any major denomination? Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #240

......still waiting........(taps foot) Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #242

"I've stayed away from the Catholic bashing on this board" Union Scribe Mar 2013 #32

I've posted exactly 3 posts on this subject Le Taz Hot Mar 2013 #33

Being a yeoman is somebody assistive or loyal to a cause. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #36

Then the poster gives me much more Le Taz Hot Mar 2013 #37

Kinda sad ain't it? Rex Mar 2013 #98

Great example of cartach Mar 2013 #23

Here is a summary BainsBane Mar 2013 #29

Thank you, I know the history well life long demo Mar 2013 #40

You are talking about anti immigrant, not anti-Catholic ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #43

Did you not read the article at all? WinkyDink Mar 2013 #46

Yes and most of it is not contemporary ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #47

not motivated by Catholicism? BainsBane Mar 2013 #138

The Klan is not contemporary ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #141

I am pointing the history and current state BainsBane Mar 2013 #88

Let's imagine all Catholic undocumented immigrants in the US converted to Protestant ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #125

Let's imagine they all turned white BainsBane Mar 2013 #140

Actually many Hispanics are converting to Protestantism so it's not that absurd ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #142

tell them to come over to my place RedstDem Mar 2013 #38

It's certainly east to point out anti-Catholic biases on the internets. NaturalHigh Mar 2013 #39

Quite obviously, the "last acceptable prejudice" is about WEIGHT. WinkyDink Mar 2013 #44

After the Catholic Church whined about how birth control was religious persecution, they geek tragedy Mar 2013 #51

Our neighbor forbade their daughter playing with my sister in elementary school. ieoeja Mar 2013 #56

Which Republican won most Religious Right Bible Belt voters for the GOP nomination? ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #58

If you define the relevant time period as not "before the 90s" then you probably won't find a lot onenote Mar 2013 #65

I was born in the 80s, so I've never seen anything like this ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #70

In the 80s, I dated a marriage counselor onenote Mar 2013 #74

But in this case it was all from the Catholic side ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #76

Something else I'll point out... ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #81

One of my brothers married a wonderful corneliamcgillicutty Mar 2013 #113

If that marriage had taken place in the 60's - before Vatican II - hedgehog Mar 2013 #158

...or you could've just got married outside the church ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #163

I don't think more people are ok with expressing racism SpartanDem Mar 2013 #87

America elected a Black President twice Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #68

My parents were married in 1981. My father's side of the family had no one who had any problems ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #71

My Catholic niece married a fundie two years ago. Her family was furious. Mine couldn't care less. ieoeja Mar 2013 #73

Would fundies be OK with them marrying a liberal Lutheran like my father's side of the family? ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #75

I believe mainstream protestants view Lutherans as Catholic-Lite. So, yes, they would not like it. ieoeja Mar 2013 #94

Who would call me a papist in middle school in the 90s? ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #95

Thanks for an open civil discussion. Peace n/t Tom Rinaldo Mar 2013 #80

No. treestar Mar 2013 #85

Offhand, the only one I can think of is Mel Gibson, and I'm not sure if he's considered Zorra Mar 2013 #89

Would you defend a picture of MLK covered in shit? joeglow3 Mar 2013 #91

As I'm still a Christian, I "should" find that offensive but I don't ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #96

That is some kind of distortion of a story Kolesar Mar 2013 #104

So you WOULD support people shitting on a picture of MLK joeglow3 Mar 2013 #107

You got nothing, Joe Kolesar Mar 2013 #108

You are right. I asked a question and have received NOTHING. joeglow3 Mar 2013 #109

No, I mean you are distorting the story Kolesar Mar 2013 #110

And Piss Christ is great art that is not offensive either, right? joeglow3 Mar 2013 #111

Piss Christ is neither great art, nor something worth getting worked up over ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #123

You have the facts straight from Rudy G, not from reality. The work of religious art you speak of is Bluenorthwest Mar 2013 #231

It's easier to point out discrimination the church has committed over the millenia. Apophis Mar 2013 #93

No, there is none in modern times. Rex Mar 2013 #101

Heck, six of the nine Supreme Court justices are Catholic Kolesar Mar 2013 #103

And the answer is, no. n/t Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #105

But, but, people are saying MEAN things on the Internet!!! Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #115

Catholics on DU have been treated badly. Accept it. DevonRex Mar 2013 #106

Nobody has mentioned anything from current times, though. Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #118

I can tell you, since I was raised Southern fundamentalist, DevonRex Mar 2013 #124

Well, there is always prejudice against various groups (Catholics, women, gays, blacks, on and on) Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #132

Does that have to happen before you have a civil tongue in your head DevonRex Mar 2013 #139

I was referring back to the question posed in the OP. Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #143

Ask the unitarians in Knoxville about being killed in church by a nut. Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #213

When my parents got married, no one on my father's side of the family objected ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #135

How nice for you. And, as a matter of fact, they blame him for me being a Democrat. DevonRex Mar 2013 #145

Some Catholics in this country vote for Democrats and liberal ideals. It's about 50/50. ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #148

My point is simply that fundies don't like liberal Protestants any more than Catholics nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #220

Of course it is ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #222

Posting your own family history over and over No Vested Interest Mar 2013 #151

Amen. Some, IMHO, have to keep stirring the pot or corneliamcgillicutty Mar 2013 #130

Yeah. DevonRex Mar 2013 #134

Yes, you're correct. No Vested Interest Mar 2013 #153

The Irish that came here in the 1800's.............. mrmpa Mar 2013 #112

The OP is about "today" though. Arugula Latte Mar 2013 #116

The claim that Catholics are mass discriminated against is nonsensical. bluestate10 Mar 2013 #127

That's because no one here on this site is actually saying that. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #217

The way I see it is the persecution is on the leadership for continuing the old ways LiberalFighter Mar 2013 #133

That's part of why my mom has all but converted to Lutheran now ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #137

I was raised Lutheran and of course there was trashing of Catholics LiberalFighter Mar 2013 #190

Well, glad you settled it. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #144

It's more of a response to the claim that what we see on DU is some type of modern day Know Nothing ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #146

But you're playing an ultimate strawman. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #149

It's why though I encourage people to leave. I basically got my mom to convert. ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #150

It is none of your fucking business to "encourage people to leave" any religion. DevonRex Mar 2013 #165

You think the ELCA shares Luther's anti-semitism? ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #170

Jesuit Priests honored as The Righteous Among The Nations: DevonRex Mar 2013 #188

Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a Lutheran ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #194

I can tell you about Lutheran "kindness". Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #215

Missouri Synod is a pretty conservative branch. My family is ELCA ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #223

So? Missouri Synod is still Lutheran. You said nothing to contradict me. Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #241

Well, thank you very much, but I have no desire to leave. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2013 #216

Which is precisely the intent BainsBane Mar 2013 #147

I've encountered some in the south marshall Mar 2013 #162

Have a mirror nearby? corneliamcgillicutty Mar 2013 #185

No. Dawson Leery Mar 2013 #192

Actually, it really does exist. davidthegnome Mar 2013 #206

Actually it's because I've never seen it in my life. Ever. ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #207

Perhaps I misunderstood your intent. davidthegnome Mar 2013 #211

While the latter part is true, Catholics all can leave ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #224

Hold it...since you left you can't comprehend why others don't nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #225

Ms B, I commend you for your patience in responding No Vested Interest Mar 2013 #233

This might clarify it a bit more ButterflyBlood Mar 2013 #236

Not at all nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #239

I'll ask my neighbor, who is somehow convinced NoGOPZone Mar 2013 #234

That's funny, because Latino immigration is the only thing keeping the Catholic Church numbers up. LAGC Mar 2013 #237