General Discussion

phylny

(8,819 posts)

121. We are speaking in generalities, or at least I am.

Mon Mar 18, 2013, 09:37 PM

Mar 2013

Of course there are some children who are going to learn at a slower pace (I am an SLP - I work with kids with disabilities, so I kinda know about different paces of learning).

Speaking in generalities, and in my experience, I see many parents of boys who let behavior slide and who have low expectations starting early on because their boys are boys, yes. All parents? No. All boys? No. Lots of them? Yes. It's just my experience, it's not scientific.

It is extremely common for me to walk into a home for early intervention and have mom or grandma say to me, "He'll never sit on the floor and work with you. He's all boy." I let them know that part of my job is to help him have short periods of attention to a task, to learn perseverance and patience, to learn to look at a book (because I and my fellow SLPs in my office were kinda horrified to learn that research shows if a child isn't attending to books by age 4, they are going to be behind in reading and may never catch up), and that he would have plenty of time to get his wiggles out.

And, as I said before, I also hear, "I just can't stand to hear him cry!" as they give in to undesirable behavior again and again. Well, if he's crying because he's not getting his way all the time, and you give in, at some point we have the discussion that one day, Junior's going to be 5'11" and 170 pounds. Best to take care of the discipline now while you can still toss him over your shoulder

Just my experience, and it would be interesting to see if the way the children in question have been parented has anything to do with educational outcomes (in addition to class size, etc.)

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"We Owe to Our Sons What We've Given Our Daughters" [View all] HereSince1628 Mar 2013 OP

I think the problem here is NCLB and standardized tests gollygee Mar 2013 #1

The author doesn't see that, he goes on to say: HereSince1628 Mar 2013 #2

I'm telling you what I see when I volunteer at my kids' schools gollygee Mar 2013 #4

You're making a very astute judgment. Squinch Mar 2013 #85

I heard once that boys have eight year spans and girls have seven year spans panader0 Mar 2013 #127

generally, physically also. it is a hoot in middle school watching the tall 5, 6, 7 grade girls seabeyond Mar 2013 #130

I know that this will be a problem for my youngest. Butterbean Mar 2013 #137

he's going to have to master "sitting at a desk" eventually. seabeyond Mar 2013 #139

Really? Is/was your son really physically active and stuff? Butterbean Mar 2013 #143

It helps if they can teach the kids how to sit instead of just expecting them to and then punishing liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #145

My oldest is autistic, and in a self contained AU classroom. Butterbean Mar 2013 #146

he has always been active. and he likes his down time. he was fun because he would read, seabeyond Mar 2013 #162

Montessori is great. nt tblue37 Mar 2013 #153

We still don't acknowledge women's math ability nearly enough. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #78

The whole bit about boys suddenly being ignored is a huge pile MattBaggins Mar 2013 #123

this is my issue with this theory. education was no different 3, 4 decades ago when men were the seabeyond Mar 2013 #125

Boys do better on standardized tests, yet get worse grades. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #14

No, it isn't the test - it's the classroom structure that is a response to the test gollygee Mar 2013 #17

not black boys, who seem to me a focal point of this article La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #23

feminism is not the reason boys are falling behind liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #3

I may be dense, but I don't think this is strictly about feminism HereSince1628 Mar 2013 #6

this is only one thing that is wrong with the public schools system liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #8

Yes and all that undermines a genuine sense of possibility. HereSince1628 Mar 2013 #9

yes, where there is no opportunity there is no hope. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #11

Yup. The education system is broken (and I speak as a long-time educator). LuckyLib Mar 2013 #27

personally i think all of society is attacking our boys and without a lot of work in the home front, seabeyond Mar 2013 #5

And yet these boys, when they come of age and are still boys...as presented, and I agree... Lionessa Mar 2013 #42

they are also pretty lonely, messed up, hurting themselves in many ways. it is not healthy. seabeyond Mar 2013 #48

I work mostly with boys, since I'm a speech-language pathologist, and most of the kids with phylny Mar 2013 #110

so if a boy learns at a slower pace we should just force him to learn faster? liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #112

I reread my post and I don't believe I said anything like that. phylny Mar 2013 #113

are you not saying that we just don't expect enough out of our boys? liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #114

We are speaking in generalities, or at least I am. phylny Mar 2013 #121

You only raised girls, and the same methods worked with them all. Lucky you. pnwmom Mar 2013 #183

Lucky me indeed. phylny Mar 2013 #200

If you're an educated professional then you must know pnwmom Mar 2013 #201

I think the reason my autistic son misbehaved was because he has always seen home as a sanctuary. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #202

Absolutely. He trusts you more than anyone else in the world. pnwmom Mar 2013 #203

Not only that, I often tell parents phylny Mar 2013 #204

Yes! And how many times did my sons try a new food because it was offered pnwmom Mar 2013 #205

Oh my good point. I had a young (5-6 yo) that wouldn't keep his hands off my equip last Lionessa Mar 2013 #120

this is why you're the professional liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #172

Good for you for doing everything you think is right. However, you only raised girls pnwmom Mar 2013 #182

I can't stand Sommers usually. ismnotwasm Mar 2013 #7

Girls who are good at math have a tough time of it. You will just have to trust me on that. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #80

are we allowed to have a discussion about the dysfunctionality of masculinity La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #10

No. n/t lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #18

that's what i thought. nt La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #21

Masculinity, just like Femininity, has been hijacked and defined by the Advertising Industry Taverner Mar 2013 #44

not just advertising, although i am sure that does not help. La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #45

Advertising, the media in general Taverner Mar 2013 #49

Advertising just distills and recirculates what society already believes Scootaloo Mar 2013 #131

No. Men like Jackson Katz have been trying, redqueen Mar 2013 #59

yup. jobs are changing, that requires staying in school longer and longer. La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #62

Yes yes, excellent points. redqueen Mar 2013 #66

i think we raised our daughters differently La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #68

I think boys and girls are different very early on. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #82

no. i hear that often. i hate it. we had no expectation and we did not direct. allowing activity seabeyond Mar 2013 #91

Why? Because we don't like boys as much. n/t lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #12

I'd say need more than like The2ndWheel Mar 2013 #15

I think that many here are (sometimes not so) privately giddy about the failures of male children in leeroysphitz Mar 2013 #13

Who? gollygee Mar 2013 #19

really? you think people here root for failure of young black boys in education? La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #20

I KNOW some do and no, I'm not going to call them out and no I wasn't lumping you in there. n/t leeroysphitz Mar 2013 #24

Well, that's pretty chickenshit. Sheldon Cooper Mar 2013 #29

Wow. ismnotwasm Mar 2013 #35

oh bullshit. what a horrible accusation bettyellen Mar 2013 #74

No. Just the not-black ones. n/t lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #25

yes, white men are always under attack. nt La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #28

a) you meant "boys" and b) you're the one who chose the qualifier. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #31

i drew the qualifier because the article focussed on black boys and so i did too. nt La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #32

The problem is more acute among black boys, but not unique to them. n/t lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #34

What makes it more acute for black boys? boston bean Mar 2013 #109

1) Race is a meaningful source of disadvantage. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #133

What the hell Jeff? ismnotwasm Mar 2013 #38

seriously Jeff? Instead of whining about feminists, men could and should learn a lot! bettyellen Mar 2013 #81

I'm serious about what I said. It sounds as if you read something else. n/t lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #90

No. I feel like my kids are being attacked. I'm mostly indifferent to personal attacks. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #88

this conversation seems to be just like the one about benevolent sexism and the Pope liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #92

Hooookay. ismnotwasm Mar 2013 #95

where are these women cheering, you are talking about? nt seabeyond Mar 2013 #116

"And now in this thread you have women who cheer the failure of children." fishwax Mar 2013 #166

I don't use eye roll smilies. ismnotwasm Mar 2013 #94

If male privilege trumped white privilege... lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #97

Ok I get it now ismnotwasm Mar 2013 #103

who would that be? i fight for my boys continually and for years have been putting up info seabeyond Mar 2013 #33

Fair enough, I'm semi-guilty. I'm not giddy, but I got no sympathy either since Lionessa Mar 2013 #43

It's a little harder to come to that conclusion when you have both a boy and girl as children. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #51

I have a boy and a girl, both grown now, but I do not find the same as you, both did just fine. Lionessa Mar 2013 #76

Oh, and don't forget, should your son and daughter happen to choose the same profession... Lionessa Mar 2013 #79

oh, my gosh you think I don't know that? You think she doesn't know that? liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #83

I get it, I'm just saying that certainly mitigates any sympathy I might otherwise have for Lionessa Mar 2013 #84

That's okay. I have enough sympathy for all of them. So do many others. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #86

Please do note that regardless of my sympathy or lack thereof... Lionessa Mar 2013 #87

Really? You guys are gonna just rush over and act all indignant? leeroysphitz Mar 2013 #89

lol lol.... look at you. k. nt seabeyond Mar 2013 #117

leeroy, might want to take note. post after post of ours addressing the issue. thinking, listening seabeyond Mar 2013 #124

You can't overlook Aerows Mar 2013 #16

When I was 12 I started thinking school was stupid, I expected to be cannon fodder HereSince1628 Mar 2013 #39

2000 buscho masho'ism really projected this for our boys. middle school is where seabeyond Mar 2013 #50

The US has certainly richly developed jingoism over the past 12 years. HereSince1628 Mar 2013 #57

from what i hear, the kids are certainly feeling their future is beyond their control for sure. seabeyond Mar 2013 #61

they aren't alone. I think there is no debt crisis, but the ads on the Ed Show HereSince1628 Mar 2013 #67

And climate change. That is a huge one. nt redqueen Mar 2013 #73

As a teacher I would agrue that the problem goes to serious and important issues in education jimlup Mar 2013 #22

Not that many years ago, people were very concerned about the lag among girls. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #30

Do you suppose it is the Lionessa Mar 2013 #47

Partly true. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #93

Exactly my point! And because teachers don't like normal little boy behavior, the get medicated. Lionessa Mar 2013 #98

i like this post. very much. i agree. nt seabeyond Mar 2013 #119

And why is it that the overwhelming majority of Pre-K teachers are women? lolly Mar 2013 #140

Partly because of the suspicion heaped upon any man looking to work with kids. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #147

They shouldn't allow prejudiced people keep them from teaching. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #148

Naive. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #150

I have also heard of cases where the innocent sue and get the decisions reversed. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #152

I had a casual acquaintance who killed himself because of apparently unfounded allegations. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #154

gay people sometimes kill themselves too. That does not stop other from fighting. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #155

Being a teacher is a choice. n/t lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #156

That is true. That does not mean they should allow others to tell them they can't teach liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #158

This message was self-deleted by its author liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #157

That is really sad ismnotwasm Mar 2013 #159

i have done a lot fo research on this, that is not true. it is what is being promoted, also paying seabeyond Mar 2013 #164

I can definitely see how the pay would be an issue. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #167

We should pay teachers at least as much as DOV workers or city workers. ismnotwasm Mar 2013 #171

Could you name things that girls are in fact good and frankly much better at then boys? HereSince1628 Mar 2013 #36

I'm hoping he just means that boys and girls have different learning styles liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #41

This of course is true of all children. This is not just a gender issue. seabeyond Mar 2013 #52

it's different now liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #58

hmmm. my kids are freshman and senior. lol. so not like i have been out of the middle school seabeyond Mar 2013 #65

I sometimes I forget that I'm not talking to colleagues who all know this data well... jimlup Mar 2013 #96

I find the arguments for single sex classrooms to be compelling. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #102

I think there are ways of addressing the problems without seperating the sexes liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #122

Single sex classrooms are not correllated with reduced academic performance among girls. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #126

Those are quite compelling kdmorris Mar 2013 #128

a year ago on NPR i heard the opposite. it reinforces sexism with boys. seabeyond Mar 2013 #134

Looks to me like it depends on how it's done kdmorris Mar 2013 #181

i hear ya on that. and i found it interesting myself. i am all for what works. seabeyond Mar 2013 #184

Thanks for the follow up kdmorris Mar 2013 #186

i was surprised with florida on the bottom. i do not think it is anymore. seabeyond Mar 2013 #189

Yeah, well, if Rick Scott has his way kdmorris Mar 2013 #190

Well thanks, I do appreciate you naming them. HereSince1628 Mar 2013 #129

but think about this. this is so fuckin' interesting. i said in a post above that studies show boys seabeyond Mar 2013 #132

my autistic son had fewer and fewer tantrums the more he could verbalize how he felt liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #144

absolutely liberal. this is what i have found with the kids. it is always trying things out, seabeyond Mar 2013 #169

So you're saying boys learn differently? ismnotwasm Mar 2013 #55

because they have been working so hard to turn our boys into savages with huge wallets-- librechik Mar 2013 #26

boys love of video games and parents focus on sports for their boys is a big part of the problem Fresh_Start Mar 2013 #37

think about the disfunctional steubenville...football heroes Fresh_Start Mar 2013 #40

boys can be active and visual learners without turning into over masculinized monsters liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #46

and i have two boys that must learn thru reading, not listening. we know our kids. we can give seabeyond Mar 2013 #54

I agree parents have to participate but it is hard when you have a special education liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #63

you child is the one being most lost in the cracks of the system that has been created. seabeyond Mar 2013 #69

yeah it's not so much the teachers that I blame as the school administrations, the school boards, liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #70

I am the mother of only daughters HockeyMom Mar 2013 #53

Christina Hoff Sommers is an acceptable source here now? redqueen Mar 2013 #56

I suppose the guy who deserves scruitiny is the author, Mark Sherman, PhD HereSince1628 Mar 2013 #60

That Sommers is problematic as a source was discussed in the article tkmorris Mar 2013 #64

Well a brief glimpse at some of the discussions about this issue on DU redqueen Mar 2013 #71

Your reaction is understandable. However... tkmorris Mar 2013 #72

I ignored the name as best I could ismnotwasm Mar 2013 #165

I know right? ismnotwasm Mar 2013 #151

We are pushing all our pre-school and kindergarten children too fast. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #75

i agree. i had one child that was always ahead in the milestones. i had one that was always behind seabeyond Mar 2013 #135

Absolutely no question about it and the statistics prove it davidn3600 Mar 2013 #77

College degrees are becoming increasingly useless. Evoman Mar 2013 #99

everyone should be have access to any and all education liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #100

Degrees are the price you pay for a career in the comfy chair. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #101

Fair point. Evoman Mar 2013 #104

Women have alternatives too. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #105

Explain why male nurses on average make more than female nurses. boston bean Mar 2013 #106

They work more hours. Simple. n/t lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #107

How the hell do they get so much time to work all them extra hours? boston bean Mar 2013 #111

The trend holds true for all occupations. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #118

I'm a nurse. ismnotwasm Mar 2013 #170

One year out of college, female teachers earn 89 percent of what male teachers earn. seabeyond Mar 2013 #136

Male teachers take coaching jobs. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #149

wrong. the first year out.... many are not in coaching positions and if it were so obvious, seabeyond Mar 2013 #168

Have you watched that lady "Body Language" expert truedelphi Mar 2013 #161

bookmark for tomorrow. so tired, but i want to watch. thanks. luv this stuff. nt seabeyond Mar 2013 #173

So what are some real world solutions to this? Evoman Mar 2013 #108

American education is in crisis. Most problems stem from lack of funding. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #115

evo... 3, 4 decades ago school was more structured. and yet, boys overwhelmingly graduated seabeyond Mar 2013 #138

So all we need to do is paddle them like we use to? liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #141

dont even go there. i am not suggesting hitting a child. i will read your post in a bit seabeyond Mar 2013 #142

sure sounds like that's the point you're trying to make. Pining Warren DeMontague Mar 2013 #163

Oh come on. Evoman Mar 2013 #174

I've re-read that post 3 times, it sure sounds like that is the point she's trying to make. Warren DeMontague Mar 2013 #178

I know you guys disagree often Evoman Mar 2013 #179

'what I know'.. heh. She regularly makes arguments about the 'decadent, worsening culture' Warren DeMontague Mar 2013 #180

it is simply the truth. talking about the differences in the system then and now. not a whole lot seabeyond Mar 2013 #185

I expressed my opinion on part of what I think may be happening in an earlier thread. Warren DeMontague Mar 2013 #192

your opinion means shit to fact. nt seabeyond Mar 2013 #193

What "fact"? Warren DeMontague Mar 2013 #194

your opinion that my stating the paddle in the past means i advocate paddling. to the fact i do not seabeyond Mar 2013 #195

I acknowledged that. My use of "opinion" in the prior post was in regard to what I wrote in HoF Warren DeMontague Mar 2013 #196

i have thought to that time. seabeyond Mar 2013 #197

I apologize for misinterpreting your post. Warren DeMontague Mar 2013 #198

thank you. nt seabeyond Mar 2013 #199

thanks. believing their own PR. seemed to be the meme to say. regardless of only having men seabeyond Mar 2013 #191

my theory ecstatic Mar 2013 #160

Maybe. Evoman Mar 2013 #175

There's a probably a few causes ismnotwasm Mar 2013 #176

That kind of goes with what i was saying above Evoman Mar 2013 #177

having some college debt makes staying in college more likely for both men and women. seabeyond Mar 2013 #187

We do? Then do something about the ancient American tradition of anti-intellectualism eridani Mar 2013 #188