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joeglow3

(6,228 posts)

69. So, intent has zero bearing on a crime?

Reply to leftyohiolib (Reply #32)

Wed Feb 1, 2012, 05:02 PM

Feb 2012

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2 students may be expelled over inhaler. [View all] Justice wanted Feb 2012 OP

Yup, your last sentence hit the nail on the head Scootaloo Feb 2012 #1

I love zero tolerance sharp_stick Feb 2012 #2

you teach them to go get help. get the nurse, a teacher or call 911 leftyohiolib Feb 2012 #35

Yeah that would have sharp_stick Feb 2012 #39

Neither are all other Good Samaritans. pnwmom Feb 2012 #161

And if they dont, you dont use your brains you just expell them. rhett o rick Feb 2012 #169

ridiculous bluebendphoto Feb 2012 #3

9 hours a week! Sanity Claws Feb 2012 #181

There are a couple of issues here Warpy Feb 2012 #4

+1 redqueen Feb 2012 #7

It said nothing of the girl going to the hospital ONLY to the Nurse's office. My thought she was Justice wanted Feb 2012 #8

Then this is doubly insane Warpy Feb 2012 #76

. rhett o rick Feb 2012 #173

The rules change about sharing prescription meds when someone isn't breathing. Capitalocracy Feb 2012 #12

She wasn't having an asthma attack; the other girl just thought she was muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #79

How do you know she wasn't? pnwmom Feb 2012 #162

Because the article states she doesn't have asthma muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #163

My husband and I were told by two different asthma specialists pnwmom Feb 2012 #165

OK, but other doctors don't say they have to wait until they witness an attack muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #172

Test results might be negative, too. pnwmom Feb 2012 #174

Sharing prescription meds is a huge no no. The girl could have died. So there needs to be some yellowcanine Feb 2012 #19

Asthma attacks can kill. Even a first asthma attack can kill. pnwmom Feb 2012 #164

I was lucky to be educated by the WWII generation. They were tsuki Feb 2012 #72

+ 1 Saphire Feb 2012 #111

+1 HuckleB Feb 2012 #96

"The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference." --Elie Wiesel nt sudopod Feb 2012 #5

This is to show that it's more important to punish a student for making an error CreekDog Feb 2012 #6

"Crites suffered an allergic reaction to the inhaler and had to visit the school nurse" jberryhill Feb 2012 #9

You clearly don't practice law or medicine jeff47 Feb 2012 #15

Good Samaritan statutes do not cover gross negligence or recklessness jberryhill Feb 2012 #17

Yes, that's what the tackling example was about jeff47 Feb 2012 #110

Here's the Colorado statute. pnwmom Feb 2012 #175

"The medicines in inhalers aren't that dangerous. You can tell ... friend wasn't even hospitalized." yellowcanine Feb 2012 #21

And a severe allergic reaction would have required at least seeing a doctor if not hospitalization jeff47 Feb 2012 #112

You have this correct. JoePhilly Feb 2012 #166

But the question is, is suspending both girls a reasonable response to their well-intended actions? pnwmom Feb 2012 #16

I agree. Intent is the key here, as it is in all questions of crime stevenleser Feb 2012 #64

And Colorado, like many states, has a Good Samaritan law, pnwmom Feb 2012 #82

And still, some people who wonder why I have zero respect for the American education bureaucracy... Journeyman Feb 2012 #10

When my younger son was in school, he experienced zero tolerance regimes Jack Rabbit Feb 2012 #11

American schools are the nation's training ground for fascism. provis99 Feb 2012 #13

+1 nt laundry_queen Feb 2012 #66

There is a very easy way to fight bullshit like this Drale Feb 2012 #14

You can have pretty bad reactions to albuterol Jennicut Feb 2012 #18

Normally I don't agree with sharing drugs either. But given the facts in the situation I have Justice wanted Feb 2012 #20

beana didnt have asthma and the other girl is not a doctor leftyohiolib Feb 2012 #27

I don't remember any kind of test to see if I was allergic before I was prescribed albuterol Capitalocracy Feb 2012 #22

thats speculation but if a doctor gave it to her and she had a reaction the school wouldnt b liabel leftyohiolib Feb 2012 #29

The Good Samaritan law would protect the student and thus the school from liability. pnwmom Feb 2012 #185

The legal defense is necessity. Manifestor_of_Light Feb 2012 #23

And Colorado has a Good Samaritan law. Why should a child be subject to consequences pnwmom Feb 2012 #84

DRUGGGZ!! DRUGGZZ!! ZERO FUCKING TOLERANCE!!! DRUUUGGGGZZZZ!!!!!! Warren DeMontague Feb 2012 #24

Maybe he would sentence them to community service Proud Liberal Dem Feb 2012 #54

Too bad we don't have zero tolenance to banksta gangsta fraud. We've tsuki Feb 2012 #75

[perhaps it didnt happen in front of any teacher and she's not asthmatic leftyohiolib Feb 2012 #25

But what happens if you are on the street and you see someone is about to step in front of Justice wanted Feb 2012 #26

we arent talking about 2 hypothetical people were talking about children leftyohiolib Feb 2012 #30

The adult in charge was not around. And what does one do if they can help when the parmedics Justice wanted Feb 2012 #33

Correction. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #38

BUT they didn't react to someone having Respritory destress. Justice wanted Feb 2012 #40

Describe in detail her respiratory distress. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #42

The girl who owns the inhaler has Asthma and have seen people in distress with breathing problems Justice wanted Feb 2012 #44

I have lupus and know the symptoms. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #45

Now you are comparing apples to oranges! You are talking about a illness and a LIFE THREATENING Justice wanted Feb 2012 #51

I also know the symptoms of a heart attack. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #53

I would hope that if you know the symptoms of a heart attack and someone is displaying the Justice wanted Feb 2012 #55

So I could give them some of my nitro pills if I see someone short of breath? Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #56

OMG you are IMPOSSIBLE I would think that if the girl had died the people would have realize Justice wanted Feb 2012 #58

Just because you are "trying" does not make it the right thing to do. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #60

That is YOUR OPINION! IF I had a daughter in that same situation in that same situation I Justice wanted Feb 2012 #63

I would most certainly blame the school for not supervising the use of medications. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #65

AND THAT IS WHAT MAKES YOU DIFFERNENT FROM ME! YOU SEE BLACK AND WHITE I SEE SHADES Justice wanted Feb 2012 #70

You seem agitated. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #80

I just can't stand stupid! Justice wanted Feb 2012 #81

I'm only trying to help. nt Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #83

NO you are not helping. You are trying to push your point of view on me. Justice wanted Feb 2012 #88

No. Actually you're not trying to help DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2012 #146

Do you see the world you want? HuckleB Feb 2012 #109

Lupus is a chronic condition, not an emergency. pnwmom Feb 2012 #105

Lupus can be an emergency. Trust me. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #106

Okay, so would you use your Epi-pen on someone who had had a bee sting pnwmom Feb 2012 #120

What if I didn't know if they had been stung? Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #124

You didn't answer the question. What if you knew a person had been stung, pnwmom Feb 2012 #140

Apples and oranges. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #145

He needed a Good Samaritan to give him the Heimlich. pnwmom Feb 2012 #147

We had no clue what was going on. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #149

that isnt what happen breana had an allergic reaction an still made it to the nurse leftyohiolib Feb 2012 #43

No. If her airways were closing up, the albuterol could have opened them pnwmom Feb 2012 #113

Or it could have masked a much more serious condition. nt Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #114

Colorado has a Good Samaritan law, so if this girl offered her inhaler to someone in the park pnwmom Feb 2012 #87

I am glad to see DU is back to opposing zero tolerance joeglow3 Feb 2012 #28

a kid pissing him/herself is better then the kid killing his/her friend because leftyohiolib Feb 2012 #32

I would rather a child try and help another child than stand by and do nothing. Standing there Justice wanted Feb 2012 #34

She was having a headache so I gave her my....nt Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #37

Let's put you in that situation. You see someone having problems breathing. You call for help but Justice wanted Feb 2012 #46

Rewind there. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #49

That's right. All children are taught to do emergency trachs at the age of seven. n/t backscatter712 Feb 2012 #61

Probably seen more trachs on TV than pharmacological knowledge. nt Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #62

That would have worked except for one thing. A Simple Game Feb 2012 #86

Use the pen and then the empty tube. nt Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #91

lets not go doddering off into hypothetical land. that isnt what happened leftyohiolib Feb 2012 #71

A headache isn't an emergency. An asthma attack can be. Are you opposed to Good Samaritan laws? pnwmom Feb 2012 #90

A "headache" could be an aneurysm. An "asthma attack" can be a cough. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #95

An asthma attack can lead to death, and you weren't there, so you have no way pnwmom Feb 2012 #104

No, but we know 1 had time to take it out and give it to the other girl. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #107

Are you operating under the delusion that she doesn't know how to use her own inhaler? (nt) jeff47 Feb 2012 #117

Does the fact that it took a minute or two mean it wasn't an emergency? pnwmom Feb 2012 #118

wth is wrong with people here you act like there are only 2 choices,feed the sufferer with w/ meds leftyohiolib Feb 2012 #48

So, intent has zero bearing on a crime? joeglow3 Feb 2012 #69

there was no crime commited here. leftyohiolib Feb 2012 #74

And those rules threaten the safety of children joeglow3 Feb 2012 #85

The zero tolerance rule conflicts with the state's Good Samaritan law. pnwmom Feb 2012 #92

Another story about idiot school admins. chrisa Feb 2012 #31

I can totally understand the schools reaction. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #36

Why? The state's Good Samaritan law says that a person can't be held liable pnwmom Feb 2012 #94

This wasn't an emergency. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #97

How do you know? She was appearing to be having an asthma attack, pnwmom Feb 2012 #102

The one girl had time to grab an inhaler and give it to the other girl and I assume advise how Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #103

They're nowhere near that hard to use jeff47 Feb 2012 #119

I have 2. First blow out until your lungs are empty. Then breathe deep. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #122

So in your mind "exhale first" would take an hour to explain? (nt) jeff47 Feb 2012 #127

About 5 seconds to get out, 15 seconds to explain, 5 seconds to hand over... Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #130

And what could a teacher do? A student could die in five minutes from an untreated asthma attack pnwmom Feb 2012 #155

LOL. Thank goodness she acted. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #168

Our middle school shares a nurse with two other schools. pnwmom Feb 2012 #176

What good are they? Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #177

A student with an inhaler might be of more use than a nurse doing her shift pnwmom Feb 2012 #178

Try opening a DU thread saying that you are having strange symptoms and ask Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #179

How do you know kids weren't calling for a teacher? And what could a teacher have done pnwmom Feb 2012 #125

They did not claim to be. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #128

We don't know that she even had an allergic reaction -- just that she felt better later. pnwmom Feb 2012 #134

Sure we do. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #135

You still haven't explained why this wouldn't fall within the protection of pnwmom Feb 2012 #136

I would say it falls under gross negligence if I was a lawyer. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #137

But the Colorado Good Samaritan law doesn't require any medical training pnwmom Feb 2012 #138

So you can do anything if it's to try to help? I doubt it works that way. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #139

Read the law. I've posted it here in several places. pnwmom Feb 2012 #141

I am not a lawyer. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #142

I wouldn't believe you if you said that -- or I'd think you were a nut case. pnwmom Feb 2012 #143

But I would still be a good samaritan. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #144

I think, if these cases were to go to a jury, pnwmom Feb 2012 #148

Who knows? I would have to see cases where the law was invoked/invalidated. nt Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #150

Or she could have felt her heart racing FloridaJudy Feb 2012 #192

no and neither were you. is that what was happening? since you werent there you dont know leftyohiolib Feb 2012 #186

Baloney. HuckleB Feb 2012 #98

"Zero Tolerance" is for idiots. Iggo Feb 2012 #41

Zero Tolerance is for those that can't (won't) think independently... truebrit71 Feb 2012 #47

zero tolerance is for schools that dont want to be sued b/c of the actions of kids. leftyohiolib Feb 2012 #50

Zero Tolerence is what is wrong with this country TODAY! We are teaching people not to care for Justice wanted Feb 2012 #52

no thats not it. we're teaching kids to let doctors and emts adminster drugs leftyohiolib Feb 2012 #77

Right. I'll just chalk you in with the folks who are cheering for wrecking the lives of two children backscatter712 Feb 2012 #59

their lives are hardly wrecked. although if alyssa killed breana but doing this their lives would be leftyohiolib Feb 2012 #68

How is zero tolerance protecting the school from being sued? Iggo Feb 2012 #78

Zero-tolerance is what lets them get sued. jeff47 Feb 2012 #121

There's a special place in hell for the inventor of ZTP's Initech Feb 2012 #57

anyone consider that the breathing problem could be a lie,kids do that. leftyohiolib Feb 2012 #67

OH Brother Justice wanted Feb 2012 #73

I don't know of anyone who uses albuterol to get high. FloridaJudy Feb 2012 #93

+1000. n/t pnwmom Feb 2012 #101

Why would you assume that the kids are lying? I've had three kids with inhalers and nobody pnwmom Feb 2012 #99

Wow are you desperate to justify this. (nt) jeff47 Feb 2012 #123

This mindset is why our schools are so much like prisons... backscatter712 Feb 2012 #153

Occam called; he has a few words for you about how you're treating his razors. (nt) Posteritatis Feb 2012 #158

Don't Americans tell people with prescription drugs not to share them? muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #89

Would you say the same thing if someone's throat was closing up after a bee sting pnwmom Feb 2012 #100

Not being legally liable does not mean that it's a good idea muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #108

Suppose it wasn't a "good idea." Do you agree with the principal's recommendation to expel her pnwmom Feb 2012 #116

Expelling them seems too draconian muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #129

Then we agree on the bottom line. pnwmom Feb 2012 #132

Exactly. HuckleB Feb 2012 #133

Don't your children occasionally disobey you? jeff47 Feb 2012 #126

Several DUers seemed to be saying the girl did a good thing muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #131

I can't speak for everyone here BUT I am saying in my opinion in this ONE case This was a case Justice wanted Feb 2012 #151

And I think you're wrong to say girls should attempt to diagnose problems and give drugs muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #167

I can't speak to what a web forum does I CAN speak to what people should do if they physically Justice wanted Feb 2012 #180

I think the girl's intentions were good, and that she shouldn't be punished pnwmom Feb 2012 #152

Try reading more carefully jeff47 Feb 2012 #187

And yet the thread starter is reiterating that it was the right thing to do muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #188

Again, you need to read more carefullly jeff47 Feb 2012 #189

Which seems to prove my point muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #190

And we also tell people that if someone is having a medical emergency pnwmom Feb 2012 #184

when my kids were in school, they couldn't Saphire Feb 2012 #115

That is a very stupid policy that medical professionals want schools to change. pnwmom Feb 2012 #157

Keeping rescue inhalers and epipens under lock and key is staggeringly stupid. (nt) Posteritatis Feb 2012 #160

This is exactly why Colorado and other states have Good Samaritan laws: pnwmom Feb 2012 #154

This thread's exactly as depressing as I figured it would be from the headline. (nt) Posteritatis Feb 2012 #156

What about it is depressing? HuckleB Feb 2012 #159

The stack of "the school is right to punish these students harshly!" ranters Posteritatis Feb 2012 #170

I think there is only one, maybe two. HuckleB Feb 2012 #171

Rather than focusing on whether or not it is right to expel the two girls, why not try . . . markpkessinger Feb 2012 #182

You suggest a very reasonable approach that is age and developmentally appropriate. pnwmom Feb 2012 #183

Something along those lines makes the most sense octothorpe Feb 2012 #191