If Catholics stopped being welcome in the Democratic Party, rightst fundies would soon go unchecked.

[Tom Rinaldo]

67. First an observation

You responded to an OP I posted which is fine, great, glad you did etc. But because your reply was the context of this thread not everything I said in my reply was directed at your words only. You say I raised a strawman argument about people wanting people to leave the Church because of things the Church has done or proclaims as dogma (and I use the term "want" instead of requir intentionally) - that is not a strawman in my opinion. Such sentiments have been posted muliple times on DU this week, along the lines of if you oppose what the Church is doing you should not paticipate in an organization that violates the values you profess to have. By all means not all opponents of the Catholic Church on DU have gone there, but some had. Some have given the opinion that not leaving the Church makes one complicit with the sins of the Church. I never suggested that you personally wanted Catholics to leave the Church - I was stating where I drew the line, not saying that you had crossed it. If I was unclear about that I apologize for leaving that impression.

"doing something really really quiet..." Huh? Haven't you been reading this board at all? Plenty of Catholics here have openly spoken out in defiance of current Church teachings in several areas, and expressed outrage over the enabling of pedophile priests etc. Not just this week, but regularly. This is just one BB, but it is a large one and liberal Ctholics write letters to the editors of newpapers, take part in Yahoo forums etc also. I focus on DU because that is where we are. Many Catholic politicians openly go against the Catholic Church in defending a woman's right to choose. John Kerry ran for President and did so. Andrew Cuomo fought to get Gay marriage legalized in New York State against the will of the Catholic bishops, and those are just two quick examples off the tip of my tongue.

When the last two Popes came to America they met with Catholic groups that were organized to fight for the victims of pedophila by priests, including many abuse survivors. They organized and lobbied the Church internally to get that face time with the Pope. You indirectly ridicule praor, but for believers prayor is a powerful force, that is one reason why we always see prayor vigils spring up when ever there is a mass shooting. We see people noting that they are praying for DU members who are ill all of the time on this very liberal forum.

If the media doesn't cover acts of protest against an American war by American citizens you certainly aren't likely to hear about what is happening at the parish level in the Catholic Church. It's been a long time since I had contact with the gay Catholics who formed Dignity to oppose Church teachings on homosexuality - but I very much doubt they have given up and gone away.

What percentage of Democrats do you figure did anything on a public enough level that anyone other than their close friends and family would know that they opposed the Iraq war beyond voting against George W. Bush? What percentage of Democratic voters wrote letters to the editor or marched in the streets? What percentage risked jail through civil disobediance to stop the War Machine? Yes many did one or more of those things but the vast majority did not. Does that mean they didn't try to stop the war? Do you hold them in low esteem as well?