General Discussion

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)

124. No one said that anyone should not be paid, I think you are capable of understanding that.

Thu Mar 21, 2013, 12:20 AM

Mar 2013

Doctors in Evil Socialist nations are paid and they make a very nice living. They have very nice houses and can afford really nice cars and their families want for nothing. They are pillars of the community and can join golf clubs and can afford to enjoy their five or more weeks of vacation in any way they choose. And most of all, when they are not otherwise occupied with this very nice life, they spend almost all of their time helping patients to heal.

What they are not are walking financial institutions. Very few of them go through the years of difficult study and what amounts to more years of apprenticeship so that some day they can buy an island, a dozen houses, and a fleet of jet planes so that they can spend the rest of their days figuring out how to avoid paying taxes.

Profit is a terrible motivation for a variety of professions because it attracts exactly the wrong people into the profession.

Are you going to argue that nobody does anything without the promise of a fortune at the end? Better still, answer this honestly to yourself. You have cancer, who would you rather have directing your treatment, the guy who is fascinated with the mechanism, behavior, and treatment of this mysterious disease, or the guy who became an oncologist because it comes with an impressive investment portfolio?

Was Jonas Salk a sucker for refusing to patent the cure for polio?

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Is it unethical for a doctor to refuse Medicaid and Medicare patients? [View all] Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 OP

The local Lutheran church KT2000 Mar 2013 #1

Why would they? MrSlayer Mar 2013 #2

Most doctors are half a million dollars in debt when they come out of med school bubbayugga Mar 2013 #7

Of course not. MrSlayer Mar 2013 #8

I totally agree with you... tallahasseedem Mar 2013 #36

They work for... onyourleft Mar 2013 #22

90 hours a week divided by $65,000 per year IdaBriggs Mar 2013 #98

Health care, Education, and Justice are the three modern necessities and should be socialized. n/t Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #38

Average is actually $150k... MannyGoldstein Mar 2013 #102

One of the docs I work with can't afford an iPhone. bubbayugga Mar 2013 #133

That's possible -- if you specialize and if you have to pay for your JDPriestly Mar 2013 #137

The average may be $150,000, but it depends. JDPriestly Mar 2013 #136

I know of a doctor who practiced in Canada for a while. antigone382 Mar 2013 #37

People should go into medicine out of a desire to help people, not to get rich or die trying. n/t Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #39

Mechanics should go into the field out of a desire to help people. IdaBriggs Mar 2013 #99

No one said that anyone should not be paid, I think you are capable of understanding that. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #124

TWENTY-THREE YEARS of training means they will need to be compensated IdaBriggs Mar 2013 #161

Apparently I was wrong about your capacity to understand. So, let's do this the DU way, Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #175

We will simply have to agree that we both think the other is IdaBriggs Mar 2013 #177

It's not the math, it's your erroneous assumptions behind he math. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #178

We both think the other person's assumptions IdaBriggs Mar 2013 #179

If I had made any assumptions you might be right, but I haven't and you're not. Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #180

if the Medicare Niceguy1 Mar 2013 #3

I agree 1337kr3w Mar 2013 #4

Why would doctors costs to provide service differ? Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #5

overhead costs vary and Niceguy1 Mar 2013 #6

My doctor... sendero Mar 2013 #9

I don't think so customerserviceguy Mar 2013 #10

Arbitration boards are there just to protect the industries that will own them MattBaggins Mar 2013 #20

In many cases, yes customerserviceguy Mar 2013 #101

Physicians for a National Health Program OneGrassRoot Mar 2013 #11

Before my physician father retired from practice, no_hypocrisy Mar 2013 #12

I have Tricare standard littlewolf Mar 2013 #13

Refuse urgent care when on hand? Yes. As a general business policy? No. Recursion Mar 2013 #14

No Yo_Mama Mar 2013 #15

If it is because of the money, then yes, it is. nt bemildred Mar 2013 #16

Living in NYC I always find these OPs strange because Medicare/aid is accepted almost everywhere JaneyVee Mar 2013 #17

I have seen it on Long Island HockeyMom Mar 2013 #65

My mother's doctor charges something like $200/year to accept Medicare MiniMe Mar 2013 #18

I'dI'd imagine it is quite unethical for a doctor, or anyone else to imply... LanternWaste Mar 2013 #19

No, it's not. cbayer Mar 2013 #21

That's a wonderfully accurate example of Burke's truism LanternWaste Mar 2013 #23

Good people are trying to do something all the time. cbayer Mar 2013 #33

Do you work to lose money? nt WinniSkipper Mar 2013 #79

Because he/she has a government licensed and enforced monopoly to practice his trade, that's why. nt bemildred Mar 2013 #31

S/he also has an obligation to pay the employees, rent, taxes, malpractice insurance, cbayer Mar 2013 #32

S/He has many obligations, so what? So do we all. bemildred Mar 2013 #43

So would you take a job where you didn't get paid? cbayer Mar 2013 #52

"When the ACC kicks in, we will see a primary care physician shortage..." More speculation? Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #54

Not speculative at all. cbayer Mar 2013 #55

Soo...what are your sources? Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #57

Just google primary care physician shortage. cbayer Mar 2013 #60

I didn't ask Google for its sources. I asked you. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #62

I don't play this game. Nice talking to you. cbayer Mar 2013 #64

Here, I did your job for you... Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #67

Lol, you found the single article on the entire first search page that takes this position. cbayer Mar 2013 #69

The issue here is that it would actually be better to spread medicaid patients over more doctors. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #75

Physicians relentless advocate for better funding. cbayer Mar 2013 #167

There are numerous sources guardian Mar 2013 #113

Show me where it demonstrates that the new healthcare laws will cause physician shortages. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #115

Frankly guardian Mar 2013 #117

You can't accuse me of being unconvinced when you do not try to convince me. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #118

A few of literally tens of thousands of similar articles guardian Mar 2013 #121

Was that really so difficult? Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #126

are you convinced yet? nt guardian Mar 2013 #127

Yes I am. I did not ask for sources as a joke. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #129

my apologies guardian Mar 2013 #131

They can quit, I don't care. bemildred Mar 2013 #58

They do quit. Retirement rates are higher and retirement ages lower. cbayer Mar 2013 #63

Good. Get the deadwood out of the way. bemildred Mar 2013 #66

It doesn't come from the government. It comes from the state medical boards and is enforced cbayer Mar 2013 #72

Are state medical boards not part of the government? Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #76

No, they are not. They are independent non-profit agencies. cbayer Mar 2013 #89

Yes, they are actually. ""The Medical Board of California is a state government agency..." Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #90

I stand corrected. cbayer Mar 2013 #164

The state is the government? bemildred Mar 2013 #77

Yeah that's smart. guardian Mar 2013 #122

The problem is that I have no reason to care. bemildred Mar 2013 #151

How very nice of you guardian Mar 2013 #154

Being snotty about it won't change my attitude. bemildred Mar 2013 #155

A question quakerboy Mar 2013 #85

Poor? None. Took no salary for periods of time? Forced to spend less time with each patient? cbayer Mar 2013 #165

I know a doctor who... WinniSkipper Mar 2013 #80

Do provide more anecdotes to support your views, Mr. Science. bemildred Mar 2013 #82

It's my cousin WinniSkipper Mar 2013 #84

I'm not saying you are lying, I'm saying it's anecdotal evidence. bemildred Mar 2013 #87

Is payment lower than cost an actual problem? Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #49

I'm not clear on what you are asking here. cbayer Mar 2013 #50

Does Medicare and Medicaid offer such low payments that doctors make no money? Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #51

Absolutely true for Medicaid. It often costs primary care doctors money to care for these patients. cbayer Mar 2013 #53

Quit, Go on strike. We look forward to it. nt bemildred Mar 2013 #61

We who? You aren't going to look forward to it if you need medical care while it's happening. cbayer Mar 2013 #68

All of us who think it is unethical for MDs to turn people away because of "cost". bemildred Mar 2013 #70

Well, good luck with finding one. cbayer Mar 2013 #74

I'm on Medicare, I already can't find one. bemildred Mar 2013 #78

I would suggest that that is exactly why you should care about their whining. cbayer Mar 2013 #166

I'm busy today, and I'd like to continue this conversation bemildred Mar 2013 #172

It's been a good conversation. cbayer Mar 2013 #173

Thank you, I'll chew that over and try to say something constructive. nt bemildred Mar 2013 #174

I think our God Mode designs pretty much coincide. bemildred Mar 2013 #181

I think we are on the same page. cbayer Mar 2013 #182

When you agree to work a 40 hour job for free guardian Mar 2013 #116

I can complain any time I want to. You don't decide that. bemildred Mar 2013 #150

I thought they were required to have 10% of the practice BainsBane Mar 2013 #132

That has to be a state based rule. In most states, you wouldn't even be cbayer Mar 2013 #163

Same as many other questions of ethics... NaturalHigh Mar 2013 #24

I think it is. Medicare and Medicaid will only pay out so much. That is what keeps cost down. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #25

My old apartments did worse than a doctor. MFM008 Mar 2013 #26

I tried to see a doctor that does not take CASH, believe it or not. Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #27

I'm pretty sure it's illegal to decline cash payment. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #28

Don't think it's slowed him down. Manifestor_of_Light Mar 2013 #34

I don't think so. They have a right to determine method of payment. Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #42

Hmmm...it appears federal tender law agrees with you. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #47

The bigger issue Sgent Mar 2013 #103

Take out an ad in your local newspapers, name the doctors if that is possible. nt bluestate10 Mar 2013 #29

Or talk to the doctors that do take Medicare and Medicaid and see whether they are bluestate10 Mar 2013 #35

I have asked myself this question many times. Sadiedog Mar 2013 #30

Indeed. Llewlladdwr Mar 2013 #40

Doctors should be paid. We all have to make a living. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #41

Then there won't be any doctors. Who would pay half a million dollars... Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #45

Right. American doctors are just scraping by. WinkyDink Mar 2013 #71

They earn their $, though. It's not easy being a doctor. Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #138

Don't forget that doctors guardian Mar 2013 #130

That's true. I have no problem with people making money, if they earn it honestly. I wish they would Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #139

Yes. WinkyDink Mar 2013 #44

No. They have a right to determine their rates & the paperwork Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #46

I did not ask if it was legal. I asked if it was ethical. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #48

And I answered. No. They have a right to determine their rates. Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #56

So they have an ethical right to deny treatment because they want more money. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #59

You are blaming the wrong people ... slipslidingaway Mar 2013 #104

I blame the system and the doctors. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #107

I blame the system more than the docs... slipslidingaway Mar 2013 #134

Yes. That's their profession. I don't work for free, either. They have staff to pay for... Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #140

Best hope you don't live to rue your words. WinkyDink Mar 2013 #73

It wouldn't change anything. It's not unethical not to work for free. I don't work for free, either. Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #141

Is it ethical for someone who's intelligent and rich to go into Engineering rather than Medicine? cherokeeprogressive Mar 2013 #81

Yes I believe it is unethical for you to not treat medicaid and medicare patients. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #83

Be glad I don't treat Medicaid and Medicare patients. Be very glad. cherokeeprogressive Mar 2013 #86

So you were falsely leading me to believe you were a doctor... Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #88

Beggin' your pardon... I didn't falsely lead you to anything at all. cherokeeprogressive Mar 2013 #91

You lead everyone to believe you were a doctor denying treatment. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #94

well I am happy to know you are a trash truck driver. Your job is just as important as a doctor. southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #95

Is it unethical for a trash truck driver not to work for free at least some of the time? Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #143

Why? He is a wage earner and didn't go to college. He didn't take a Hippocratic oath yet if your southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #152

I have a Bachelors in Vocational Education from Long Beach State. n/t cherokeeprogressive Mar 2013 #156

That is wonderful. What's your point? Just wondering. I'm not trying to down people who have a southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #157

If medicaid and medicare don't cover the treatment for such patients, then no, it's not unethical. X_Digger Mar 2013 #92

Doctor's offices should have nothing to do with money. RedCappedBandit Mar 2013 #93

Exactly, their hand is forced, especially with the cost .... slipslidingaway Mar 2013 #97

No they have loans to pay ... slipslidingaway Mar 2013 #96

The Hippocratic Oath makes it unethical. jazzimov Mar 2013 #100

No, it doesn't. The oath says that the medicine they practice must be done ethically and honestly. Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #144

I think it is. What ever happen to "First do no harm"? Lady Freedom Returns Mar 2013 #105

Exactly why we need a not for profit system, but the Dems blocked any discussion ... slipslidingaway Mar 2013 #119

"do no harm" to those you treat. Honeycombe8 Mar 2013 #146

Is it unethical for grocery stores to refuse customers paying with food stamps? DBoon Mar 2013 #106

Yes, it is unethical to refuse food stamps. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #108

Is the grocer reimbursed for less than 100% of the price of the purchase? tritsofme Mar 2013 #128

I just got turned down in THREE different places for residential treatment cliffordu Mar 2013 #109

That's fucked. MannyGoldstein Mar 2013 #110

True, that, Manny - cliffordu Mar 2013 #112

Good luck! MannyGoldstein Mar 2013 #123

Yep - getting more crowded by the day. cliffordu Mar 2013 #125

It is usually more likely the doctor is actually losing money for each Medicaid/Medicare patient. guardian Mar 2013 #111

My daughter will be about $300,000 in debt by the time she becomes a doctor. Xithras Mar 2013 #114

Amen to that Yo_Mama Mar 2013 #159

I think many wish they could... Don't shoot the messenger but ecstatic Mar 2013 #120

My doctor gave up his practice at the end of last year. Sen. Walter Sobchak Mar 2013 #135

This has been a problem ever since Medicare started. SheilaT Mar 2013 #142

No, not unethical to demand a living wage pediatricmedic Mar 2013 #145

Mosy physicians in the US are no longer in a position to individually make such a decision. David__77 Mar 2013 #147

Is it unethical for any person not to help someone who can't pay? BlueCheese Mar 2013 #148

Only if it's unethical for you, personally, not to meet strangers' health-care costs singlehanded. Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2013 #149

Amen. n/t Phentex Mar 2013 #153

If they don't refuse, how the fuck are the doctors supposed to pay for their Maseratis? AngryAmish Mar 2013 #158

Response from an angrier Mennonite Yo_Mama Mar 2013 #160

You get it... Phentex Mar 2013 #162

Amen! I did the math up above in post #161. IdaBriggs Mar 2013 #168

I found it, that was quite realistic Yo_Mama Mar 2013 #169

I think you hit the nail on the head with your observation about "rich doctors" -- IdaBriggs Mar 2013 #170

Me personally, I think it is low class and wrong. Rex Mar 2013 #171

Anyone interested in making a list of DU's most consistent reich-wing defenders Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #176