General Discussion

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)

134. it's not going to happen - The Leninist total - collectivist model

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 04:34 PM

Mar 2013

Last edited Sun Mar 24, 2013, 06:34 PM - Edit history (1)

has been tried numerous times and it does not work. It is worse than even oppressive sweat-shop capitalism in terms of the on the ground reality it produces. The only successful systems that grant prosperity and democratic rights to the vast overwhelming majority are the social-democratic or as some call them the democratic socialist models where socialism and capitalism are mixed. Even Hugo Chavez's model encouraged and saw a major increased in the private sector and produced astounding results. Even though the Chavez model is not quite the same as the Scandinavian type social democratic model the principle of a mixed economy with multi-party democracy is the same. This is not an ideological positions - nothing else works. Social democracy is indeed under attack and there have been cutbacks - but it still survives and it is not going away. while the bureaucratic collectivist models are buried in the dustbin of history.

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The marginalization of "The Left" through the years. Not hearing us now at all. [View all] madfloridian Mar 2013 OP

Let's get one thing straight from the get-go: What the MSM calls "The Left" is the middle. NYC_SKP Mar 2013 #1

The left has left for other parties such as the Green Party liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #2

We have the internet forums, bloggers. That's about it. You're right. madfloridian Mar 2013 #6

what they call the 'far left' is the middle. what they call the left is the center- HiPointDem Mar 2013 #7

Agree! ananda Mar 2013 #71

+1 It is the American People, the 99 percent, who have been sold out. woo me with science Mar 2013 #77

The real left that remains on the radio has also been kicked under the bus Cleita Mar 2013 #104

Actually, the marginalization of the left began much earlier. PDJane Mar 2013 #3

Yes, much earlier. And now the Third Way takes over for the DLC... madfloridian Mar 2013 #4

This is seriously ProSense Mar 2013 #58

In 2004 they delivered a slap in the face to huge numbers of caring people. madfloridian Mar 2013 #65

I'm saying ProSense Mar 2013 #67

As Molly Ivins said he was a "fighting centrist". Not one who shut out a whole part of the party. madfloridian Mar 2013 #70

A centrist is still a centrist. ProSense Mar 2013 #73

PS. Don't take on MF. Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #97

Did you ProSense Mar 2013 #101

I Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #110

Here's ProSense Mar 2013 #112

Again and as ever. Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #155

LOL! ProSense Mar 2013 #160

"stop assigning them more power than they have" I'd like to suggest part of how that mistake is patrice Mar 2013 #182

Snicker Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #186

LOL! ProSense Mar 2013 #192

Whirl Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #222

The marginilization continues with this poster. Fuddnik Mar 2013 #136

Please, get over yourself. n/t ProSense Mar 2013 #140

Pot meet kettle. Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #154

You know ProSense Mar 2013 #156

Sure Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #158

Look ProSense Mar 2013 #161

Est Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #189

This ^^^^! MoclipsHumptulips Mar 2013 #218

During the buildup to the IWar, the centrist couldnt wait to kiss Bush's behind. rhett o rick Mar 2013 #209

Dean should have been given a great deal more recognition by the Obama JDPriestly Mar 2013 #125

Excellent post. madfloridian Mar 2013 #127

My point is ProSense Mar 2013 #129

Are there Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #190

May I ProSense Mar 2013 #193

You might Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #223

President Obama has done a lot of little things, some of which you list, JDPriestly Mar 2013 #196

I think the oligarch overlords have politics right where they want it. We have a wacko right wing rhett o rick Mar 2013 #221

"If liberal Democrats stood up and fought hard, the Party could be made to move left. Playing the rhett o rick Mar 2013 #103

No, that's ProSense Mar 2013 #105

So true! JDPriestly Mar 2013 #197

I don't subscribe to the substitution of centrist for moderate. TheKentuckian Mar 2013 #114

Centrist is a conservative that's ashamed to admit it. rhett o rick Mar 2013 #208

Fuckin A TheKentuckian Mar 2013 #220

simply, you've been anti Dem since Dean flamed out (though it wasn't his fault, it was the media). dionysus Mar 2013 #128

That is such a unbelievable thing for you to say. madfloridian Mar 2013 #131

but Carter himself was a southern conservadem hfojvt Mar 2013 #21

Cheers! Vinnie From Indy Mar 2013 #53

Truth about the shellackings of leftish Presidential candidates........ socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #163

You are correct: The Powell Manifesto set out the entire plan. Nixon's appointee to loudsue Mar 2013 #83

Kennedy was not at all on the left, but the marginalization started JDPriestly Mar 2013 #122

Excellent post dreamnightwind Mar 2013 #144

The concept of World Peace is now "Far Left" in Washington.... Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2013 #5

Very true. madfloridian Mar 2013 #8

Look what Bush did to "No Child Left Behind".... Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2013 #81

Race To The Top=No Child Left Behind liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #87

How about we try something new? Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2013 #92

I'm on board with that. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #94

And "Dying of Old Age If You're Not Rich". Ken Burch Mar 2013 #9

Everyone, and I mean everyone, needs to read this important post ReRe Mar 2013 #10

Thanks, they deliberately set out to ignore the left. Planned it. madfloridian Mar 2013 #16

They wanted "one party rule" I guess... ReRe Mar 2013 #19

The media have been co-opted and hay rick Mar 2013 #11

Don't forget the "think tanks" and the Federalist Society. They've gone about a very successful SleeplessinSoCal Mar 2013 #22

Geithner is not submissive to Wall Street markiv Mar 2013 #106

K&R nt Zorra Mar 2013 #12

The Progressive/"Left" in today's DEM Party? DOA. blkmusclmachine Mar 2013 #13

They take the left for granted in an attempt to be appealling HereSince1628 Mar 2013 #47

K&R. Our representation has been sold. nt woo me with science Mar 2013 #14

+100000 bbgrunt Mar 2013 #15

K&R n/t DeSwiss Mar 2013 #17

I've got a wee bit of hope owing to the very dedicated base of Occupy Wall Street SleeplessinSoCal Mar 2013 #18

only a couple weeks ago I heard one of the Sunday morning infotainment Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #20

Yeah those pesky Trotskyites...... socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #62

I like your screen name. I may have to change mine to include socialist. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #93

Feel free..... socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #165

Socialist Isn't a Bad Word. Left Turn Only Mar 2013 #118

"The fact that so many on the left cringe at their own roots...... socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #168

it's not going to happen - The Leninist total - collectivist model Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #134

Socialism does not = "The Leninist total - collectivist model" bread_and_roses Mar 2013 #148

I know that - but the Trotskyist model does Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #152

The Leninist model is the only one that has been proven to actually..... socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #159

yes the Leninist model is the only model that has actually taken capitalism down and was able to Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #172

I've heard "far left" in the MSM over and over LeftInTX Mar 2013 #164

I think the true American Left was tied to Unions and economic issues, now they mostly represent whathehell Mar 2013 #23

we've given into the lie that we have to focus on one or the other. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #26

I don't recall anyone promoting that dichotomy, and it's definitely a wrongheaded idea, whathehell Mar 2013 #41

Guess what? Those like Elizabeth Warren, who voted for Ronald Reagan & 41 killed the unions graham4anything Mar 2013 #30

Guess what?...I was a living, breathing, thinking adult during that time and no one I knew whathehell Mar 2013 #40

Hillary campaigned for Goldwater. hay rick Mar 2013 #43

Yes, and as I understand it, she was quite liberal in college but that's changed. whathehell Mar 2013 #49

"mostly redeemed herself" former9thward Mar 2013 #80

Any discussion of the 1980 election that does not include the words "hostage crisis" and... JHB Mar 2013 #51

^^^^! Once we had leaders & a platform which backed... Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #91

Yes...In fact it was not long ago at all that BOTH parties called Social Security "The 3rd Rail"... whathehell Mar 2013 #215

I'm afraid we have 2 choices: Party takeover or 3rd party. Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #217

Yes, I think you're right. I'm a member of Progressive Democrats of America whathehell Mar 2013 #219

Yep MFrohike Mar 2013 #153

Yes, absolutely. whathehell Mar 2013 #213

Local TV station/website calls *anything* not Teabilly/Koch ProfessionalLeftist Mar 2013 #24

yup, you know its bad when some so called Democrats are sounding like quinnox Mar 2013 #25

K & R Le Taz Hot Mar 2013 #27

It's called hindsight. graham4anything Mar 2013 #28

I will vote for whom I think will best "represent" me liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #29

Like Elizabeth Warren who voted for Reagan and Bush41. graham4anything Mar 2013 #31

If it is liberal democrats' fault for social justice issues losses, who's fault is it that we have liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #33

You lost me at 1%. and YOUR last line says it all. graham4anything Mar 2013 #34

you better believe actions have consequences and just as you blame me for social issue losses I liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #35

It's MY right to continue it. graham4anything Mar 2013 #37

It's also my right to put you on ignore. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #38

JFK so truely said "Ask NOT what your country can do for you, ask what YOU can do" graham4anything Mar 2013 #39

"10% of something is a helleva lot better than 100% of nothing. " rhett o rick Mar 2013 #113

It's just the usual "not as bad" bullshit worded differently. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #115

So, did you complain when RFK spied on Dr. King? graham4anything Mar 2013 #116

Sorry, I am not going to bite. nm rhett o rick Mar 2013 #123

"You lost me at 1%" - Please explain that. HughBeaumont Mar 2013 #214

Liberals could make that demand of centrists if Liberals/the Left could SUCCEED. They don't succeed patrice Mar 2013 #198

There was no "mass exodus" in 1968 Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2013 #126

I remember too. & If HHH had won, Nixon wouldn't have split Labor & choked all of the poorer unions patrice Mar 2013 #199

+1! patrice Mar 2013 #201

A lot of us in my generation remember how the unions were largely pro-Vietnam war Fumesucker Mar 2013 #32

The Serenity Canard again always holds true, corny as it is graham4anything Mar 2013 #36

Does the current Democratic Party completely embody your ideals? hay rick Mar 2013 #63

Considering my age and where I live the likelihood of me ever being in a union is nil Fumesucker Mar 2013 #95

This union member was right here in '03, LWolf Mar 2013 #66

I think he said pretty clearly that the unions were for the Vietnam war.... socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #72

. LWolf Mar 2013 #138

Yeah, my apologies. I posted focusing on the Vietnam part..... socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #162

Accepted. LWolf Mar 2013 #211

yep spot on. Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #78

That could just be Atlantic Highlands tabbycat31 Mar 2013 #86

i don't know how things are now.. Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #90

du rec. nt xchrom Mar 2013 #42

The Democratic party will continue to swing to the right as long as the left lets them, MadHound Mar 2013 #44

I agree. hay rick Mar 2013 #50

It is quite sad for the left to play the victim like this treestar Mar 2013 #45

It's sad to engage in a personal attack nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #56

They are the victim. The people quoted in the OP made them victims. Deliberately. madfloridian Mar 2013 #59

That victimization thing... Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #96

+1 THAT's what keeps what calls itself "the Left" marginalized & hence from becoming what would patrice Mar 2013 #203

When the left fights back by not voting for the centrists the centrists claim 'victimhood". Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #119

Funny how that works isn't it..... socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #169

Not voting makes you the ultimate victim treestar Mar 2013 #177

I always vote. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #187

That is a great quote by John Quincy Adams liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #194

Excellent post. 99Forever Mar 2013 #46

K&R The Democratic party now seems like just a branch of the Republican party. forestpath Mar 2013 #48

Understanding the fundamental differences between 'liberal' and 'left' Cal Carpenter Mar 2013 #52

And that leads to the obvious nerd question? nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #54

I am talking about the results of policy Cal Carpenter Mar 2013 #57

Forgive me, but social security was a center left policy nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #60

Personally... 99Forever Mar 2013 #64

Knowing the definitions isn't just an academic exercise....... socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #171

I'm not interested in your filibuster. 99Forever Mar 2013 #173

Not sure I understand. madfloridian Mar 2013 #68

Here are things ProSense Mar 2013 #55

K&R Starry Messenger Mar 2013 #61

Tea Party caucus-28, Progressive caucus-70+ randr Mar 2013 #69

If they yell and no one covers it, is there still noise? madfloridian Mar 2013 #74

They would draw coverage (nasty though it might be) if they said NO and TheKentuckian Mar 2013 #120

There's some truth to that dreamnightwind Mar 2013 #150

oh, wow. I have heard of the progressive caucus but had no idea there were 70. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #88

They have been trying to communicate about their budget proposal. Petition link in my post #205 patrice Mar 2013 #206

Have you seen the CPC's Budget Proposal? Links here: patrice Mar 2013 #205

Yet, the 3rd Way/DLC types still expect us to vote for their candidates and blame us when they lose. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #75

k/r marmar Mar 2013 #76

it's time to start showing up at our local dem party meetings then. Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #79

K&R Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #82

Please ProSense Mar 2013 #84

This message was self-deleted by its author Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #98

The democratic party has left the poor people behind and they embrace corporate southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #85

HUGE K & R !!! WillyT Mar 2013 #89

Reed: "Our next challenge is to deliver on that promise (to the middle class)" progressoid Mar 2013 #99

This message was self-deleted by its author datasuspect Mar 2013 #100

Alex Cary documented the 'leveraged buy-out' of Mass Media in his History of Propaganda... Octafish Mar 2013 #102

Thanks, octafish. I will be checking that out. madfloridian Mar 2013 #130

Maria Gilardin is TOPS and TUC Radio is an amazing resource, an antidote to MSM... Octafish Mar 2013 #180

You turned me on to TUC Radio/Michael Parenti about a year ago. OnyxCollie Mar 2013 #188

Thank you for the heads-up, OnyxCollie! Octafish Mar 2013 #212

And this history ended BEFORE the Hate Radio era Doctor_J Mar 2013 #149

ABC and the Rise of Rush Limbaugh Octafish Mar 2013 #181

Bingo colsohlibgal Mar 2013 #107

I loved Kucinich. Everyone laughed at him but he was one of the only ones with the courage liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #108

Henry Wallace would not recognise today's Democratic party markiv Mar 2013 #109

K&R for one of DU's best and brightest. Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #111

The left has always been marginalized in this country... ljm2002 Mar 2013 #117

Very well said. YoungDemCA Mar 2013 #141

They'll never hear us until we make them earn our votes. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #121

Democrats know that they do not have to earn our vote...that it's already locked in davidn3600 Mar 2013 #124

I agree. madfloridian Mar 2013 #132

Pres.Obama is the #1 greatest president since LBJ.MOST democratic voters LOVE HIM graham4anything Mar 2013 #151

"Hey, Hey, LBJ! How many kids did you kill today?" Weren't words of love for a "great" president. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #166

Eisenhower started the war. Soundbytes sound nice, but are very misguided, dontchathink? graham4anything Mar 2013 #167

And, your "liberal" hero escalated it to the point of killing millions and refused to end it. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #170

What a whitewashing of history. LBJ was far to the left of McCarthy & McGovern put together. graham4anything Mar 2013 #175

Oh, right. LBJ was a real peacenik. "Losing was not an option." But, he did lose. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #185

1968 showed what happened (prior to 2000) when some 3rd party ruined things. graham4anything Mar 2013 #207

Yep. And the drift to the right Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #157

Really important article. Thanks. n/t zentrum Mar 2013 #133

I wish this wasn't true. Rex Mar 2013 #135

Very well done, thank you for posting on this issue, you missed very little, the Koch connection Dragonfli Mar 2013 #137

Good post. Nothing new to those of us that have lived it stupidicus Mar 2013 #139

What is described here is just the latest installment of purging the left from US politics. limpyhobbler Mar 2013 #142

In my experience, "Centrism" has been used as an excuse... YoungDemCA Mar 2013 #143

K & R from another unprofitable mindset dreamnightwind Mar 2013 #145

K&R idwiyo Mar 2013 #146

Liberal is now an epithet among Dems too Doctor_J Mar 2013 #147

kick and rec. n/t NRaleighLiberal Mar 2013 #174

Kicked and bookmarked LeftInTX Mar 2013 #176

Still they wonder how the RW rose to prominence. Rain Mcloud Mar 2013 #178

I believe the military has been running the country since Truman stood up to mountain grammy Mar 2013 #179

AGREE! That was demonstrated also because Henry Wallace lost the nomination to Truman. patrice Mar 2013 #183

Kick this incredible thread.... defacto7 Mar 2013 #184

Not that Al From cares, but liberals hold him in even more contempt than he holds us Samantha Mar 2013 #191

K&R... Madflordian.... Thank you for your efforts this coming week! midnight Mar 2013 #195

Yep, mine is due the 28th. madfloridian Mar 2013 #202

Reagan was obviously "transformational." moondust Mar 2013 #200

The marginalization of the left is made easy by rigid, zealous ideologues... Generation_Why Mar 2013 #204

This is an excellent post and thread.. mountain grammy Mar 2013 #210

Oh wow did I ever relate to your post. madfloridian Mar 2013 #216