General Discussion

Cliff Arnebeck

(305 posts)

39. Rove's grand plan of which the secret Ohio ES&S patch was a part

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:12 PM

Mar 2013

Yes. Rove had a grand scheme, led by the OpSec (Operations Security) attack, that fizzled before it got very far off the ground. OpSec was to damage Obama in 2012 the same way the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth damaged Kerry in 2004. This time, however, Jill Simpson tracked OpSec's origins to Rove and SmarTech months before its claimed originators said they had created it. Scytl was supposed to play a part in realizing the benefits of the OpSec attack. Simpson exposed Scytl's North American HQ as being a residence in Virginia. Scytl filed a change of address for its HQ to another token address the day after Simpson's picture of the Virginia home appeared in the Free Press.

Rove was still counting on the traditional 5-6 point red shift in the Ohio vote on election night. The leak to the Free Press of the ES&S secret contract the week before the election and our litigation regarding it on election day disrupted this last piece of the grand plan that had been unraveling all along.

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How Karl Rove fixed the FBI investigation of his theft of the 2004 Presidential election in Ohio [View all] Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 OP

"We"?? .... interviewed Clermont County etc. & also source link of somesort please & thank you. nt patrice Mar 2013 #1

Richard Hayes Phillips, PhD and Cliff Arnebeck, Attorney in litigation over the 2004 Ohio election Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #4

I have his book. You guys did a great investigation... YvonneCa Mar 2013 #33

Good media coverage without achieving critical mass--until SCANDAL Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #223

Thank you for this post. I have ten copies of... YvonneCa Apr 2013 #225

Karl Rove has no control over the rigging/murdering truth being told in ABC-TV's Scandal Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #229

someday the truth will come out Botany Mar 2013 #70

I want this book! Where can I get it? This is arthritisR_US Mar 2013 #140

Here... from the author Ellipsis Mar 2013 #142

The first book out on this was What Happened in Ohio? by my colleague Bob Fitrakis Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #144

So they have taken this to court, did their excellent arthritisR_US Mar 2013 #148

Good fruit from Bob Fitrakis' book and the subsequent King Lincoln v. Blackwell suit Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #149

Anyone going to prison for any of this? arthritisR_US Mar 2013 #151

Let's get to the truth and let the truth have its effect Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #153

One thing that has always bothered me is why arthritisR_US Mar 2013 #154

John Kerry needs to explain why he conceded the 2004 election he won Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #155

Exactly! I went to bed that night and he had arthritisR_US Mar 2013 #158

Senator Kerry's 2004 election protection activities Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #164

Of course it was too late for his lawyers to do arthritisR_US Mar 2013 #165

My guess is that they handed him a packet with photos of John Edwards ... peace13 Apr 2013 #226

Maybe he did... YvonneCa Apr 2013 #227

Why did Kerry not fight? Deltadoc Mar 2013 #157

I am clearly missing something because I fail arthritisR_US Mar 2013 #159

I don't know Deltadoc Mar 2013 #160

Well, perception is reality and like yourself, I arthritisR_US Mar 2013 #161

How Rove used the Iraq War to roll John Kerry Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #166

That has bothered me too. ALOT DiverDave Apr 2013 #275

Conspiracy thugs calling their critics "conspiracy theorists" Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #280

We need your financial support to sustain civil litigation against election fraud Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #156

This is a no brainer, done ! arthritisR_US Mar 2013 #162

Thank you! Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #163

How Rove used the Iraq War to get Kerry to concede. Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #181

Political and Moral War Against American Fascism Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #265

I heard about that and he is dead on! arthritisR_US Apr 2013 #266

Sanders for Sainthood? Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #267

I agree! He is one of the rare ones who hold office for the right reasons! arthritisR_US Apr 2013 #269

Out now in SCANDAL! Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #224

thank you so much for this investigation and for posting this xiamiam Mar 2013 #76

Thank you Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #174

Richard Hayes Phillips --- A Citizens' Audit of an American Election -- exposition for you. Ellipsis Mar 2013 #40

Video of our July 17, 2008 News Conference: announced intention to sue Karl Rove under Ohio RICO Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #96

How about a source for that? JoeBlowToo Mar 2013 #2

Um... I'm Thinking... He IS The Source... WillyT Mar 2013 #6

Yep! MelissaB Mar 2013 #9

We used to have a very active JimDandy Mar 2013 #152

true dat! librechik Mar 2013 #34

... YvonneCa Mar 2013 #35

Why - he testified at the hearings n/t malaise Mar 2013 #8

Cliff Arnebeck was lead counsel for the voters law suit in Ohio. Ellipsis Mar 2013 #37

He IS the source! sabrina 1 Mar 2013 #82

NYT article on Lackawanna Six Terrorism case and Stanley Borgia's role in it Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #101

Where'd you go, Joe? nt. OldDem2012 Mar 2013 #118

Watch out you might scare Karl, he is a dirty rotten dog, maybe this is why he didnt want Thinkingabout Mar 2013 #3

Rove is afraid. Your support for our efforts scares him even more. Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #172

Maybe they got it from here? Huff Post?` SugarShack Mar 2013 #5

Value of a paper trail Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #13

Question - was Rove's election night outburst on Fox malaise Mar 2013 #24

No. President Obama won by over 100 electoral votes. graham4anything Mar 2013 #27

But that doesn't mean that Rove didn't try to steal Ohio and failed. yellowcanine Mar 2013 #87

Rove's grand plan of which the secret Ohio ES&S patch was a part Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #39

Thanks for your excellent response malaise Mar 2013 #41

Thanks & please visit ElectionProtectionAction.org for more action! Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #204

Keep up your great work malaise Apr 2013 #205

Thank you! Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #273

Have you made the connection between Margaret Thatcher's poll tax and malaise Apr 2013 #262

Rove Koch Chambers' conjuring up new and enhanced All American Jim Crow schemes Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #264

What did you think of the Anonymous video that came out right after the election? FourScore Mar 2013 #49

Other help in deterring misconduct in elections Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #103

Interesting! FourScore Mar 2013 #104

An excerpt from Dubose's article here... pacalo Mar 2013 #31

I think you are confusing the 2004 and 2000 elections waddirum Mar 2013 #111

Good catch. pacalo Mar 2013 #112

full article reposted in edit to my original thread Cliff Arnebeck Aug 2015 #289

Whatever happened with the Michael Connell investigation? malaise Mar 2013 #7

Thank you for posting that. Frustratedlady Mar 2013 #14

YES -this is one I want settled as well malaise Mar 2013 #17

Enabled by Ralph Nader, who threw the election and admits it in his own words.NH NH NH graham4anything Mar 2013 #28

Nader had nothing to do with this. mikeysnot Mar 2013 #77

Rove orchestrated the theft of the 2000 election from Vice President Al Gore Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #145

They changed the thickness of the punch card paper at the mill. Ellipsis Mar 2013 #150

Rather investigated Ohio 2004 ballots as well Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #175

Ralph Nader's role in the 2000 Presidential election Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #183

Thank you for this, and for clarifying the difference between the way Nader acted pnwmom Apr 2013 #235

Ray Lemme, another probable victim of a strategic political assassination Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #43

If one was ever done, it is incomplete. Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #42

Could RICO be used against Rove pscot Mar 2013 #46

Ohio's Corrupt Practices Act--the most powerful RICO statute in the U.S. Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #81

Cliff, I understand why the RW doesn't really advocate for clean elections. joeunderdog Mar 2013 #139

American elections--golf club rules: Republicans get a six point handicap Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #143

where's the other thread -- elehhhhna Mar 2013 #146

George Soros' disinterest in funding/supporting the prosecution of Rove's serial election fraud Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #147

By saying Karl Rove and strategic assassinations in the same sentence you just chummed the DU waters Ellipsis Mar 2013 #48

Hope for our democracy Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #95

Yeah.. Dunno about that. "Scandal" is just the Grey's Anatomy version of presidential politics. Ellipsis Mar 2013 #115

"Scandal" is revealing inside information Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #117

If you are saying there was a White House cabal in place to get Bush elected, that would be news Ellipsis Mar 2013 #129

SCANDAL--truth camouflaged as fiction Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #132

I watch Scandal davidpdx Apr 2013 #170

SCANDAL is breaking the ice. Please support our work to complete the story. Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #173

Link it Cliff... and I'd bet Skinner would allow you to do a fundraising thread if you asked. Ellipsis Apr 2013 #177

Fund-raising for continuing investigation of, and litigation against, Karl Rove a go! Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #206

Spoonamore's insights and opinions Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #107

I am aware of Spoonamores friendship with Connell Ellipsis Mar 2013 #114

Request for more help Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #119

July 17, 2008 News Conference Deltadoc Mar 2013 #122

Checking Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #124

YouTube on the way Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #127

On Triad... mentioned in the video, Triad was engaged in developing the OHIO voter database Ellipsis Mar 2013 #130

Switching Democratic votes in Republican Counties Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #133

This is a great thread malaise Mar 2013 #131

Thanks for helping make it so Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #278

Delighted to see it still going malaise Apr 2013 #279

18,000 views within reach Cliff Arnebeck May 2013 #282

Wow malaise May 2013 #283

Spoonamore's bio Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #121

Doesn't make sense creeksneakers2 Mar 2013 #56

Correct. The whole Smartech thing is a false flag, part of a cover-up of the actual vote-switching. Coyotl Mar 2013 #80

SmarTech's role in managing a complex, multi-year, national vote rigging operation Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #90

SmarTech as repository of Rove's "missing" White House Emails Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #274

Guess again. They were on the law firm's server. Coyotl Apr 2013 #276

Thanks for this supplemental information, not inconsistent with email residency at SmarTech also Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #277

My sense of it Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #88

For some reason, it sticks in the back of my mind that Connell's wife Frustratedlady Apr 2013 #180

SimonWorrall's interview: "Cybergate: WasTheWhiteHouseStolenByCyberfraud?" Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #182

Thanks! At least I'm not into dementia. Frustratedlady Apr 2013 #184

Reported Ray Lemme related "suicides" Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #189

Thanks malaise Mar 2013 #63

No malaise here Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #256

Your work is appreciated malaise Apr 2013 #257

Thank you! Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #261

My hats off to you sir! BobbyBoring Mar 2013 #93

DU-a wonderful forum Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #196

How could he be deposed brush Mar 2013 #50

no Ellipsis Mar 2013 #52

I want to know too. The crash was about a block from my dad's house. we can do it Mar 2013 #75

It was very suspicious malaise Mar 2013 #79

I hope you are right! we can do it Mar 2013 #83

An insider informed the FBI that Mike Connell's plane was professionally sabotaged Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #167

Just wow. Thank you very much. we can do it Mar 2013 #168

Parallels between 2004 Presidential election theft and 2008 Mike Connell assassination cover-ups Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #169

Welcome to DU! RainDog Mar 2013 #10

Thanks Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #250

Much thanks sobenji Mar 2013 #11

Thank you, sobenji! Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #254

Thank you Cliff! nt stevenleser Mar 2013 #12

Toward critical mass to restore democratic rule in the U.S. Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #197

The Suspicious, Disturbing Death of Election Rigger Michael Connell Octafish Mar 2013 #15

Thank you. That refreshed my memory of that awful night. Frustratedlady Mar 2013 #21

Accidents are no stranger to this e-voting thing. Remember Athan Gibbs? Octafish Mar 2013 #85

Just getting caught up on answers to my posts. Frustratedlady Apr 2013 #185

Bipartisan consensus on Athan Gibbs' importance to the 21st century election integrity movement Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #187

I was not aware of this, at all, and appreciate your sharing of information. Frustratedlady Apr 2013 #190

"Nothing personal--just business," are organized crime killings Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #191

Mike Connell was knowledgeable and honest--a real problem for Kove. Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #219

Mr. Connell was an honest broker. Thank you for making that clear, Cliff Arnebeck. Octafish Apr 2013 #220

The Criminal Enterprise that serves as the base for Karl Rove's serial election rigging Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #221

Danny Sheehan and the Christic Institute stood up to War Inc. Octafish Apr 2013 #228

Is "Scandal" setting up Rove to take the fall for 2004 Presidential election theft in Ohio? Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #230

Yay! I am so glad you are here! babsbunny Mar 2013 #16

Community Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #198

Thanks Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #231

The hot link jlayson Mar 2013 #18

Great to have you onboard, Cliff. Old and In the Way Mar 2013 #19

How Rove prolonged the Iraq war to serve as reelection prop and election theft cover-up strategy Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #176

Call me crazy, but...it costs a lot of money to rig a national election. Old and In the Way Apr 2013 #193

Cash payoffs in Iraq as possible source of funding for election rigging Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #194

They are very clever at siphoning the Treasury. CrispyQ Apr 2013 #252

ElectionProtectionAction.org for info and contribution vehicles to counter ghouls Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #259

Just sent a couple of bucks your way. CrispyQ Apr 2013 #260

Yes! Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #263

K & R AzDar Mar 2013 #20

Thanks and invitation to visit ElectionProtectionAction.org Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #195

Welcome to DU! n/t pnwmom Mar 2013 #22

Thanks for the welcome, pnwmom Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #241

Very Very Kicked and Recommended AndyTiedye Mar 2013 #23

Thanks & please visit ElectionProtectionAction.org Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #203

US Citizens, tax payers, rich or poor, better snap out of it... fascisthunter Mar 2013 #25

Rove is not going to be so useful anymore siligut Mar 2013 #125

The critical importance of deposing Karl Rove Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #126

Yes, the vote rigging must be stopped siligut Mar 2013 #128

I was there Cliff .... I saw "it" w/my own eyes and heard "it" w/my own ears Botany Mar 2013 #26

Scientific exit polls detect fraud Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #188

Thanks, Cliff Arnebeck! New poster. elleng Mar 2013 #29

Thank you Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #199

Great to see you, and good you're back. elleng Apr 2013 #200

Our need for working capital to fund full scale anti-fraud litigation Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #217

Will do what I can, Cliff. elleng Apr 2013 #218

K&R - thanks for your work and welcome to DU. n/t ms liberty Mar 2013 #30

Thanks to Ms. Liberty Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #210

coverup mtasselin Mar 2013 #32

G.W. Bush's disciplinary actions against Karl Rove's perfidy Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #211

Welcome to DU. And thank you... YvonneCa Mar 2013 #36

Thanks to YvonneCa Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #213

Just when you think you're out they drag you back in.... Eh Mr Rove? Ellipsis Mar 2013 #38

Thank you, Cliff, Unknown Beatle Mar 2013 #44

Thanks to Beatle Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #214

K&R PatSeg Mar 2013 #45

Is it really YOU??? FourScore Mar 2013 #47

me too..locked media and we had no place to vent or share info other than du after that election xiamiam Mar 2013 #78

Thanks to FourScore Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #233

Welcome to DU... agracie Mar 2013 #51

Time to "look back" yet? blkmusclmachine Mar 2013 #53

Yes, at Rove, where looking back could produce a fruitful criminal prosecution Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #281

Thank you for your tireless work on behalf of Ohio voters. Doremus Mar 2013 #54

Thanks Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #234

Kick and Rec Th1onein Mar 2013 #55

Thank you Mr. Arnebeck. defacto7 Mar 2013 #57

For advice to keep heat on and stay safe Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #240

K&R midnight Mar 2013 #58

wow! kick and recommend! bbgrunt Mar 2013 #59

Welcome to DU Cliff Arnebeck! ReRe Mar 2013 #60

Thanks Mr. Arnebeck. Welcome to DU. PufPuf23 Mar 2013 #61

How to clean up government(s) Maineman Mar 2013 #67

Thanks. Interesting and creative framework of thought.. nt PufPuf23 Mar 2013 #86

K & R x 1,000! And welcome to DU, Cliff Arnebeck x 1,000! Peace Patriot Mar 2013 #62

People awakening to fascist election fraud Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #238

K&R Kurovski Mar 2013 #64

Request for help with http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022628229 Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #247

::Smile:: Agony Mar 2013 #65

Is that a quote? britaphilter Mar 2013 #66

Guess you don't know Mr. Arnebeck is quoting himself. Ikonoklast Mar 2013 #69

For those looking for a source drm604 Mar 2013 #68

Video of our July 17, 2008 News Conference: announced intention to sue Karl Rove under Ohio RICO Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #97

I'm always happy to help in this particular fight. drm604 Mar 2013 #102

Another K and R panader0 Mar 2013 #71

IMO the rethug insiders that cannot just be fired when a new President takes over are a real problem jwirr Mar 2013 #72

Riggy Riggy Riggy goes the Piggy... Blue Owl Mar 2013 #73

kick Ellipsis Mar 2013 #74

First time posting at DU in the past year ... Fly by night Mar 2013 #84

Excellent point, Fly. blm Mar 2013 #89

Thanks to you, Bernie, a top leader in the pro-democracy movement in the U.S.! Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #136

Mr Cool. Ellipsis Mar 2013 #141

That is the truth politicasista Apr 2013 #207

I wish I could Kick and recommend 100 times.... onecent Mar 2013 #91

Thank you. We are back in court and ready to go all the way. Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #92

Men with MONEY, like ADELSON-he wanted Romney to beat Obama to get rid of the DOJ investigation CarmanK Mar 2013 #94

We need to crack down on 21st century globally organized crime Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #242

Restore law and order: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022628229 Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #243

This is exciting. I hope the rule of law is applied. And why isn't this still on the Greatest page. Gregorian Mar 2013 #98

Great run for a 24 hour "Greatest thread" cycle Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #105

It's always a successful thread when Kurovski checks in Ellipsis Mar 2013 #116

Thank you for all your hard work on this issue. I have heard that you made great sacrifices truckin Mar 2013 #99

Let's keep on truckin. We can beat these bastards if we do. Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #216

Eric Holder knows what you know, and he is ON THE CASE. Dr Fate Mar 2013 #100

The shielding of Rove by major funders on the left Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #215

If democracy is ever restored to America, you will be one of the heros.... Junkdrawer Mar 2013 #106

Sincere thanks Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #212

The facts: Coyotl Mar 2013 #108

The question I raised was: how they got away with it Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #109

I didn't see this until it had expired but please let me say that I will AikidoSoul Mar 2013 #110

Light at the end of the tunnel Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #113

See Spoonamore Press Conference http://archive.org/details/ElectionFraudInOhioCourtCase Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #120

Thanks very much for posting this...greatly appreciated! nt. OldDem2012 Mar 2013 #123

Very happy being a "NewDem" and being here on DU Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #192

More Claremont ballot rigging evidence rbaiman Mar 2013 #134

Is Miami County, Ohio Defiance County in SCANDAL? Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #135

What episode(s)? rbaiman Mar 2013 #137

Miami County 2004 software Cliff Arnebeck Mar 2013 #138

Link to detailed forensic report on Miami (a.k.a. "Defiance") County 2004 Vote Rigging rbaiman Apr 2013 #246

Real Ohio proof of the crime of the century, as depicted in ABC TV's Scandal Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #248

Lou Dobbs election rigging show rbaiman Apr 2013 #249

Bobby Kennedy's tribute to the stature of Harvey Wasserman Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #251

Do you know how the ratings have been for... YvonneCa Apr 2013 #253

Scandal: Hottest series on TV today, per Cover of Entertainment Weekly! Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #270

I KNEW IT! Dpm12 Apr 2013 #171

Once actually. Ellipsis Apr 2013 #178

Rove stole both the 2000 and 2004 Presidential elections Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #244

I knew people weren't stupid enough to vote for Bush ONCE let alone twice. yourout Apr 2013 #202

The Republican Party has been surviving by election theft for a quarter century Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #245

kick deek Apr 2013 #179

kick, the sequel n/t RainDog Apr 2013 #186

The least of Kkkarl's misanthropic endeavors . orpupilofnature57 Apr 2013 #201

K&R nt ProudProgressiveNow Apr 2013 #208

Kindred progressives on DU Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #209

K&R! Thanks for posting and for all that you do! myrna minx Apr 2013 #222

Thanks Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #232

Just donated. Thank you for all your work! nt octoberlib Apr 2013 #236

Thanks for quoting "Give 'em Hell" Harry Truman! Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #237

How interesting! octoberlib Apr 2013 #239

Conspicuous corruption Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #272

Borgia? Really? arely staircase Apr 2013 #255

Borgia and Rove/Borgia and Machiavelli: truth stranger than fiction Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #258

. WhoIsNumberNone Apr 2013 #268

Complete video of Presser targeting Karl Rove for Ohio RICO litigation Cliff Arnebeck Apr 2013 #271

Kicking... Mnemosyne May 2013 #284

More common than reported by electronic voting systems Cliff Arnebeck Jun 2013 #287

kickski Snarkoleptic May 2013 #285

Thank you very much Cliff Arnebeck May 2013 #286

This is an important story, thanks for sharing, but we must look forward... Wisc Progressive Aug 2015 #288