General Discussion

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)

172. yes the Leninist model is the only model that has actually taken capitalism down and was able to

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 09:09 PM

Mar 2013

sustain at least for decades. But at what price and what kind of society did it create? We can only judge that by asking those who lived under it and we know that it was never able to sustain support from the majority of their own working classes for whom they claimed to be empowering. However ideologically appealing it may be, however stirred we may become when singing "and in the final conflict" - However much those words move us - in every single experiment where capitalism has been taken down and completely replaced with a collectivist economy - every single time we have ended up with oppressive and impoverished dictatorships less free and much poorer than any one of several capitalist nations. Even if the Trotskyist model could work - that is as relevant today as anarcho-syndicalism - It is not going to happen. We can only look at what has been tried down here on planet earth. However boring and un-ideologically appealing social democracy is - it works.

"Whenever I see an American with a glow in their eyes talking about workers and peasants uniting, something deep inside my heart tells me to watch out...There is a new brand of Irish Catholicism on the rise." Eugene O'Neill

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The marginalization of "The Left" through the years. Not hearing us now at all. [View all] madfloridian Mar 2013 OP

Let's get one thing straight from the get-go: What the MSM calls "The Left" is the middle. NYC_SKP Mar 2013 #1

The left has left for other parties such as the Green Party liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #2

We have the internet forums, bloggers. That's about it. You're right. madfloridian Mar 2013 #6

what they call the 'far left' is the middle. what they call the left is the center- HiPointDem Mar 2013 #7

Agree! ananda Mar 2013 #71

+1 It is the American People, the 99 percent, who have been sold out. woo me with science Mar 2013 #77

The real left that remains on the radio has also been kicked under the bus Cleita Mar 2013 #104

Actually, the marginalization of the left began much earlier. PDJane Mar 2013 #3

Yes, much earlier. And now the Third Way takes over for the DLC... madfloridian Mar 2013 #4

This is seriously ProSense Mar 2013 #58

In 2004 they delivered a slap in the face to huge numbers of caring people. madfloridian Mar 2013 #65

I'm saying ProSense Mar 2013 #67

As Molly Ivins said he was a "fighting centrist". Not one who shut out a whole part of the party. madfloridian Mar 2013 #70

A centrist is still a centrist. ProSense Mar 2013 #73

PS. Don't take on MF. Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #97

Did you ProSense Mar 2013 #101

I Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #110

Here's ProSense Mar 2013 #112

Again and as ever. Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #155

LOL! ProSense Mar 2013 #160

"stop assigning them more power than they have" I'd like to suggest part of how that mistake is patrice Mar 2013 #182

Snicker Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #186

LOL! ProSense Mar 2013 #192

Whirl Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #222

The marginilization continues with this poster. Fuddnik Mar 2013 #136

Please, get over yourself. n/t ProSense Mar 2013 #140

Pot meet kettle. Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #154

You know ProSense Mar 2013 #156

Sure Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #158

Look ProSense Mar 2013 #161

Est Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #189

This ^^^^! MoclipsHumptulips Mar 2013 #218

During the buildup to the IWar, the centrist couldnt wait to kiss Bush's behind. rhett o rick Mar 2013 #209

Dean should have been given a great deal more recognition by the Obama JDPriestly Mar 2013 #125

Excellent post. madfloridian Mar 2013 #127

My point is ProSense Mar 2013 #129

Are there Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #190

May I ProSense Mar 2013 #193

You might Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #223

President Obama has done a lot of little things, some of which you list, JDPriestly Mar 2013 #196

I think the oligarch overlords have politics right where they want it. We have a wacko right wing rhett o rick Mar 2013 #221

"If liberal Democrats stood up and fought hard, the Party could be made to move left. Playing the rhett o rick Mar 2013 #103

No, that's ProSense Mar 2013 #105

So true! JDPriestly Mar 2013 #197

I don't subscribe to the substitution of centrist for moderate. TheKentuckian Mar 2013 #114

Centrist is a conservative that's ashamed to admit it. rhett o rick Mar 2013 #208

Fuckin A TheKentuckian Mar 2013 #220

simply, you've been anti Dem since Dean flamed out (though it wasn't his fault, it was the media). dionysus Mar 2013 #128

That is such a unbelievable thing for you to say. madfloridian Mar 2013 #131

but Carter himself was a southern conservadem hfojvt Mar 2013 #21

Cheers! Vinnie From Indy Mar 2013 #53

Truth about the shellackings of leftish Presidential candidates........ socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #163

You are correct: The Powell Manifesto set out the entire plan. Nixon's appointee to loudsue Mar 2013 #83

Kennedy was not at all on the left, but the marginalization started JDPriestly Mar 2013 #122

Excellent post dreamnightwind Mar 2013 #144

The concept of World Peace is now "Far Left" in Washington.... Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2013 #5

Very true. madfloridian Mar 2013 #8

Look what Bush did to "No Child Left Behind".... Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2013 #81

Race To The Top=No Child Left Behind liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #87

How about we try something new? Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2013 #92

I'm on board with that. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #94

And "Dying of Old Age If You're Not Rich". Ken Burch Mar 2013 #9

Everyone, and I mean everyone, needs to read this important post ReRe Mar 2013 #10

Thanks, they deliberately set out to ignore the left. Planned it. madfloridian Mar 2013 #16

They wanted "one party rule" I guess... ReRe Mar 2013 #19

The media have been co-opted and hay rick Mar 2013 #11

Don't forget the "think tanks" and the Federalist Society. They've gone about a very successful SleeplessinSoCal Mar 2013 #22

Geithner is not submissive to Wall Street markiv Mar 2013 #106

K&R nt Zorra Mar 2013 #12

The Progressive/"Left" in today's DEM Party? DOA. blkmusclmachine Mar 2013 #13

They take the left for granted in an attempt to be appealling HereSince1628 Mar 2013 #47

K&R. Our representation has been sold. nt woo me with science Mar 2013 #14

+100000 bbgrunt Mar 2013 #15

K&R n/t DeSwiss Mar 2013 #17

I've got a wee bit of hope owing to the very dedicated base of Occupy Wall Street SleeplessinSoCal Mar 2013 #18

only a couple weeks ago I heard one of the Sunday morning infotainment Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #20

Yeah those pesky Trotskyites...... socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #62

I like your screen name. I may have to change mine to include socialist. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #93

Feel free..... socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #165

Socialist Isn't a Bad Word. Left Turn Only Mar 2013 #118

"The fact that so many on the left cringe at their own roots...... socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #168

it's not going to happen - The Leninist total - collectivist model Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #134

Socialism does not = "The Leninist total - collectivist model" bread_and_roses Mar 2013 #148

I know that - but the Trotskyist model does Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #152

The Leninist model is the only one that has been proven to actually..... socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #159

yes the Leninist model is the only model that has actually taken capitalism down and was able to Douglas Carpenter Mar 2013 #172

I've heard "far left" in the MSM over and over LeftInTX Mar 2013 #164

I think the true American Left was tied to Unions and economic issues, now they mostly represent whathehell Mar 2013 #23

we've given into the lie that we have to focus on one or the other. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #26

I don't recall anyone promoting that dichotomy, and it's definitely a wrongheaded idea, whathehell Mar 2013 #41

Guess what? Those like Elizabeth Warren, who voted for Ronald Reagan & 41 killed the unions graham4anything Mar 2013 #30

Guess what?...I was a living, breathing, thinking adult during that time and no one I knew whathehell Mar 2013 #40

Hillary campaigned for Goldwater. hay rick Mar 2013 #43

Yes, and as I understand it, she was quite liberal in college but that's changed. whathehell Mar 2013 #49

"mostly redeemed herself" former9thward Mar 2013 #80

Any discussion of the 1980 election that does not include the words "hostage crisis" and... JHB Mar 2013 #51

^^^^! Once we had leaders & a platform which backed... Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #91

Yes...In fact it was not long ago at all that BOTH parties called Social Security "The 3rd Rail"... whathehell Mar 2013 #215

I'm afraid we have 2 choices: Party takeover or 3rd party. Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #217

Yes, I think you're right. I'm a member of Progressive Democrats of America whathehell Mar 2013 #219

Yep MFrohike Mar 2013 #153

Yes, absolutely. whathehell Mar 2013 #213

Local TV station/website calls *anything* not Teabilly/Koch ProfessionalLeftist Mar 2013 #24

yup, you know its bad when some so called Democrats are sounding like quinnox Mar 2013 #25

K & R Le Taz Hot Mar 2013 #27

It's called hindsight. graham4anything Mar 2013 #28

I will vote for whom I think will best "represent" me liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #29

Like Elizabeth Warren who voted for Reagan and Bush41. graham4anything Mar 2013 #31

If it is liberal democrats' fault for social justice issues losses, who's fault is it that we have liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #33

You lost me at 1%. and YOUR last line says it all. graham4anything Mar 2013 #34

you better believe actions have consequences and just as you blame me for social issue losses I liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #35

It's MY right to continue it. graham4anything Mar 2013 #37

It's also my right to put you on ignore. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #38

JFK so truely said "Ask NOT what your country can do for you, ask what YOU can do" graham4anything Mar 2013 #39

"10% of something is a helleva lot better than 100% of nothing. " rhett o rick Mar 2013 #113

It's just the usual "not as bad" bullshit worded differently. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #115

So, did you complain when RFK spied on Dr. King? graham4anything Mar 2013 #116

Sorry, I am not going to bite. nm rhett o rick Mar 2013 #123

"You lost me at 1%" - Please explain that. HughBeaumont Mar 2013 #214

Liberals could make that demand of centrists if Liberals/the Left could SUCCEED. They don't succeed patrice Mar 2013 #198

There was no "mass exodus" in 1968 Lydia Leftcoast Mar 2013 #126

I remember too. & If HHH had won, Nixon wouldn't have split Labor & choked all of the poorer unions patrice Mar 2013 #199

+1! patrice Mar 2013 #201

A lot of us in my generation remember how the unions were largely pro-Vietnam war Fumesucker Mar 2013 #32

The Serenity Canard again always holds true, corny as it is graham4anything Mar 2013 #36

Does the current Democratic Party completely embody your ideals? hay rick Mar 2013 #63

Considering my age and where I live the likelihood of me ever being in a union is nil Fumesucker Mar 2013 #95

This union member was right here in '03, LWolf Mar 2013 #66

I think he said pretty clearly that the unions were for the Vietnam war.... socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #72

. LWolf Mar 2013 #138

Yeah, my apologies. I posted focusing on the Vietnam part..... socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #162

Accepted. LWolf Mar 2013 #211

yep spot on. Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #78

That could just be Atlantic Highlands tabbycat31 Mar 2013 #86

i don't know how things are now.. Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #90

du rec. nt xchrom Mar 2013 #42

The Democratic party will continue to swing to the right as long as the left lets them, MadHound Mar 2013 #44

I agree. hay rick Mar 2013 #50

It is quite sad for the left to play the victim like this treestar Mar 2013 #45

It's sad to engage in a personal attack nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #56

They are the victim. The people quoted in the OP made them victims. Deliberately. madfloridian Mar 2013 #59

That victimization thing... Eleanors38 Mar 2013 #96

+1 THAT's what keeps what calls itself "the Left" marginalized & hence from becoming what would patrice Mar 2013 #203

When the left fights back by not voting for the centrists the centrists claim 'victimhood". Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #119

Funny how that works isn't it..... socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #169

Not voting makes you the ultimate victim treestar Mar 2013 #177

I always vote. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #187

That is a great quote by John Quincy Adams liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #194

Excellent post. 99Forever Mar 2013 #46

K&R The Democratic party now seems like just a branch of the Republican party. forestpath Mar 2013 #48

Understanding the fundamental differences between 'liberal' and 'left' Cal Carpenter Mar 2013 #52

And that leads to the obvious nerd question? nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #54

I am talking about the results of policy Cal Carpenter Mar 2013 #57

Forgive me, but social security was a center left policy nadinbrzezinski Mar 2013 #60

Personally... 99Forever Mar 2013 #64

Knowing the definitions isn't just an academic exercise....... socialist_n_TN Mar 2013 #171

I'm not interested in your filibuster. 99Forever Mar 2013 #173

Not sure I understand. madfloridian Mar 2013 #68

Here are things ProSense Mar 2013 #55

K&R Starry Messenger Mar 2013 #61

Tea Party caucus-28, Progressive caucus-70+ randr Mar 2013 #69

If they yell and no one covers it, is there still noise? madfloridian Mar 2013 #74

They would draw coverage (nasty though it might be) if they said NO and TheKentuckian Mar 2013 #120

There's some truth to that dreamnightwind Mar 2013 #150

oh, wow. I have heard of the progressive caucus but had no idea there were 70. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #88

They have been trying to communicate about their budget proposal. Petition link in my post #205 patrice Mar 2013 #206

Have you seen the CPC's Budget Proposal? Links here: patrice Mar 2013 #205

Yet, the 3rd Way/DLC types still expect us to vote for their candidates and blame us when they lose. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #75

k/r marmar Mar 2013 #76

it's time to start showing up at our local dem party meetings then. Phillip McCleod Mar 2013 #79

K&R Egalitarian Thug Mar 2013 #82

Please ProSense Mar 2013 #84

This message was self-deleted by its author Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #98

The democratic party has left the poor people behind and they embrace corporate southernyankeebelle Mar 2013 #85

HUGE K & R !!! WillyT Mar 2013 #89

Reed: "Our next challenge is to deliver on that promise (to the middle class)" progressoid Mar 2013 #99

This message was self-deleted by its author datasuspect Mar 2013 #100

Alex Cary documented the 'leveraged buy-out' of Mass Media in his History of Propaganda... Octafish Mar 2013 #102

Thanks, octafish. I will be checking that out. madfloridian Mar 2013 #130

Maria Gilardin is TOPS and TUC Radio is an amazing resource, an antidote to MSM... Octafish Mar 2013 #180

You turned me on to TUC Radio/Michael Parenti about a year ago. OnyxCollie Mar 2013 #188

Thank you for the heads-up, OnyxCollie! Octafish Mar 2013 #212

And this history ended BEFORE the Hate Radio era Doctor_J Mar 2013 #149

ABC and the Rise of Rush Limbaugh Octafish Mar 2013 #181

Bingo colsohlibgal Mar 2013 #107

I loved Kucinich. Everyone laughed at him but he was one of the only ones with the courage liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #108

Henry Wallace would not recognise today's Democratic party markiv Mar 2013 #109

K&R for one of DU's best and brightest. Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #111

The left has always been marginalized in this country... ljm2002 Mar 2013 #117

Very well said. YoungDemCA Mar 2013 #141

They'll never hear us until we make them earn our votes. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #121

Democrats know that they do not have to earn our vote...that it's already locked in davidn3600 Mar 2013 #124

I agree. madfloridian Mar 2013 #132

Pres.Obama is the #1 greatest president since LBJ.MOST democratic voters LOVE HIM graham4anything Mar 2013 #151

"Hey, Hey, LBJ! How many kids did you kill today?" Weren't words of love for a "great" president. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #166

Eisenhower started the war. Soundbytes sound nice, but are very misguided, dontchathink? graham4anything Mar 2013 #167

And, your "liberal" hero escalated it to the point of killing millions and refused to end it. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #170

What a whitewashing of history. LBJ was far to the left of McCarthy & McGovern put together. graham4anything Mar 2013 #175

Oh, right. LBJ was a real peacenik. "Losing was not an option." But, he did lose. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2013 #185

1968 showed what happened (prior to 2000) when some 3rd party ruined things. graham4anything Mar 2013 #207

Yep. And the drift to the right Jakes Progress Mar 2013 #157

Really important article. Thanks. n/t zentrum Mar 2013 #133

I wish this wasn't true. Rex Mar 2013 #135

Very well done, thank you for posting on this issue, you missed very little, the Koch connection Dragonfli Mar 2013 #137

Good post. Nothing new to those of us that have lived it stupidicus Mar 2013 #139

What is described here is just the latest installment of purging the left from US politics. limpyhobbler Mar 2013 #142

In my experience, "Centrism" has been used as an excuse... YoungDemCA Mar 2013 #143

K & R from another unprofitable mindset dreamnightwind Mar 2013 #145

K&R idwiyo Mar 2013 #146

Liberal is now an epithet among Dems too Doctor_J Mar 2013 #147

kick and rec. n/t NRaleighLiberal Mar 2013 #174

Kicked and bookmarked LeftInTX Mar 2013 #176

Still they wonder how the RW rose to prominence. Rain Mcloud Mar 2013 #178

I believe the military has been running the country since Truman stood up to mountain grammy Mar 2013 #179

AGREE! That was demonstrated also because Henry Wallace lost the nomination to Truman. patrice Mar 2013 #183

Kick this incredible thread.... defacto7 Mar 2013 #184

Not that Al From cares, but liberals hold him in even more contempt than he holds us Samantha Mar 2013 #191

K&R... Madflordian.... Thank you for your efforts this coming week! midnight Mar 2013 #195

Yep, mine is due the 28th. madfloridian Mar 2013 #202

Reagan was obviously "transformational." moondust Mar 2013 #200

The marginalization of the left is made easy by rigid, zealous ideologues... Generation_Why Mar 2013 #204

This is an excellent post and thread.. mountain grammy Mar 2013 #210

Oh wow did I ever relate to your post. madfloridian Mar 2013 #216