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reACTIONary

(6,935 posts)

47. I can give you a very authoratative answer...

Sat Mar 30, 2013, 01:33 PM

Mar 2013

...to at least one of your questions: Do you demand software engineers go over their latest project in precise detail before they can write it?

The answer is yes. We do. That's called a peer review. And after the software is written, we test the hell out of it. That's called independent verification and validation.

Especially if you are writing flight software for spacecraft that support programs of national importance and would cause national embarrassment if they fail. Our children's education is a priority of national importance, and much more than just an embarrassment if we fail.

I think we need to make a distinction between testing that is aimed at evaluating an individual student and that which is aimed at evaluating the teacher or the educational system itself. Professionals in all fields are used to having their work products and their processes evaluated and critiqued. We don't get defensive about it because that's what keeps our professional standing and our effectiveness high.

Now with education, the "work product" is the child's knowledge and understanding. To evaluate the teacher, to evaluate the process, you have to evaluate the children. The tests required for evaluating a student may be different than those necessary for evaluating the teacher and the system, but both are necessary.

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OK. Obama/Duncan/Gates School "Reform" Model: The results Are IN !!! Today's NYT: P. A1 [View all] Smarmie Doofus Mar 2013 OP

K&R idwiyo Mar 2013 #1

K&R Teamster Jeff Mar 2013 #2

K&R G_j Mar 2013 #3

Post removed Post removed Mar 2013 #4

Damn! That might leave a well earned mark. TheKentuckian Mar 2013 #6

Well, think about it. Le Taz Hot Mar 2013 #5

And Arne Duncan never spent a day in a school teaching and so does not know timdog44 Mar 2013 #44

that is a gross exaggeration, and this cheating occurred before obama was elected. mopinko Mar 2013 #68

When are the links coming that prove what a wonderful job UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #7

That's one thing you will never find here because duffyduff Mar 2013 #59

The sad thing is that a lot of the things in-the-trenches teachers advocate winter is coming Mar 2013 #8

those jerks and their minions shoudl be prosecutedunder RICO, elehhhhna Mar 2013 #9

And it is the kids who suffer most of all Fearless Mar 2013 #10

I'm not sure how protecting the integrety of the system... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #11

Maybe because tests abelenkpe Mar 2013 #16

Absolutely Iwillnevergiveup Mar 2013 #20

In general, what is wrong with "teaching to the tests"... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #23

Tests don't -- and can't -- measure understanding starroute Mar 2013 #28

I think your observation may refer to a restrictive subset of tests... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #38

Au contraire. AdHocSolver Mar 2013 #77

+1 Starry Messenger Mar 2013 #79

Ma réplique... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #81

Standardized tests don't necessarily measure anything. AdHocSolver Mar 2013 #91

The Bell Curve... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #94

I was clueless until I had kids in the school system-Ed has changed beyond the comprehension of many lunasun Mar 2013 #97

There is no worse system of education than 'teaching to the test'. sabrina 1 Mar 2013 #56

Fine. But do you have any testing to back that up? reACTIONary Mar 2013 #87

You don't teach to any test. That is not the purpose of testing. You EDUCATE sabrina 1 Mar 2013 #95

+1000s (n/t) bread_and_roses Mar 2013 #107

Nothing. Works fine for lawyers, CPAs, and other industry exams... Comrade_McKenzie Mar 2013 #84

Solidarity, Comrade! (nt) reACTIONary Mar 2013 #88

Except that's not how it works. jeff47 Mar 2013 #114

What would you propose? What would be the best way... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #22

Either the Finnish system which does not test or a portfolio system where kids Orlandodem Mar 2013 #36

I've heard of the "Finnish system" and just looked it up... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #43

Finland, a tiny country with a tiny population, is not the United States duffyduff Mar 2013 #60

How 'bout we trust teachers to solve this? jeff47 Mar 2013 #39

I can give you a very authoratative answer... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #47

No, we don't. jeff47 Mar 2013 #52

I think you make a good point... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #55

You're still missing the central point jeff47 Mar 2013 #57

dumb or hungry? reACTIONary Mar 2013 #92

Apparently, you needed more tests in reading comprehension jeff47 Mar 2013 #113

Teachers can evaluate students... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #118

No. Students are not "products" - nor is knowledge a "product." bread_and_roses Mar 2013 #110

The Hallowed Halls... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #112

The education "reformers" are starting at the WRONG END. AdHocSolver Mar 2013 #82

RE: They did an across-the-board reevaluation of everything... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #85

If you don't understand what is wrong with that, LWolf Mar 2013 #75

I think you make some very good points... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #78

Did you know that, LWolf Mar 2013 #86

Thanks for the reply... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #111

I'm going to have to make this one the last. LWolf Mar 2013 #115

Thanks again, I'll read through it carefully (nt) reACTIONary Mar 2013 #117

When non-teachers who don't know anything about education tell teachers how to do their jobs, duffyduff Apr 2013 #122

Do teachers... reACTIONary Apr 2013 #123

amen to all that (n/t) bread_and_roses Mar 2013 #116

Because tests that do that don't exist. proud2BlibKansan Mar 2013 #108

And she wouldn't have been caught if the teachers hadn't told on her. proud2BlibKansan Mar 2013 #12

Except that isn't how I would generally describe what happened... cherokeeprogressive Mar 2013 #67

There are umpteen versions of how it all came down. proud2BlibKansan Mar 2013 #70

k&r Starry Messenger Mar 2013 #13

But but but ... 99Forever Mar 2013 #14

K&R formercia Mar 2013 #15

LOL, someone alerted this and lost badly! Here are the results! Logical Mar 2013 #17

"birtheresque comment" zeemike Mar 2013 #24

I thank you jury and my child thanks you too. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #62

You get what you measure. nt antigop Mar 2013 #18

And one wonders why anyone would be against measurement. (nt) reACTIONary Mar 2013 #26

depends upon what is being measured and what we are "getting". In this case, look what allegedly antigop Mar 2013 #33

Agreed. And I hope this serves an example for others. (nt) reACTIONary Mar 2013 #89

There are so many answers and I wish I could go into them all now. BrotherIvan Mar 2013 #40

My bet is... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #90

Since learning is strictly up to the desire or ability of kids to learn, it can't measure duffyduff Mar 2013 #64

You don't believe that teachers can be inspiring... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #83

K&R!!!!! Public not profit! Dark n Stormy Knight Mar 2013 #19

A very hearty K&R! demmiblue Mar 2013 #21

45 years ?!? Geez, it's not like she crashed the economy or lied us into war. eppur_se_muova Mar 2013 #25

A good article, a stupid OP bhikkhu Mar 2013 #27

Would you say that Obama and Duncan have pushed back on MannyGoldstein Mar 2013 #32

As far as I can see, they've done nothing in 4 years on that bhikkhu Mar 2013 #37

Race to the Top is Obama's baby and is 1,000 times worse than NCLB. n/t duffyduff Mar 2013 #63

+10000000 nt woo me with science Apr 2013 #120

Check this Salon article it's happening in other places. erinlough Mar 2013 #34

Cheating Runs Rampant/Salon/May2012 ReRe Mar 2013 #98

Good post! A very astute point... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #106

We get it. savebigbird Mar 2013 #109

Arne Duncan following NCLB is a trainwreck for public education PufPuf23 Mar 2013 #29

It sure has been. nt LWolf Mar 2013 #30

sssshhhhhh... we best be silent.. nt PufPuf23 Mar 2013 #31

As much as DU hates Bush with a passion you would think more people would liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #74

This article is more sulphurdunn Mar 2013 #35

Interesting, thank you. Starry Messenger Mar 2013 #41

I was chased off another site for daring to speak against the Gates foundation BrotherIvan Mar 2013 #42

Not sure what you said to get chased off timdog44 Mar 2013 #48

He has plenty of money to buy good PR though BrotherIvan Mar 2013 #53

Here's the problem: for the "reformers", it isn't about education. Marr Mar 2013 #45

Absolutely. BrotherIvan Mar 2013 #46

Sadly, both Eli Broad sulphurdunn Mar 2013 #50

Even convicted criminals are. Case in point: Michael Milken. n/t duffyduff Mar 2013 #61

Yea, he's come along way sulphurdunn Mar 2013 #69

He and Bill Bennett are in cahoots with K-12 duffyduff Mar 2013 #76

yes, the democratic politicians are perfectly fine with sacrificing unions to get some corporate liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #72

K & R !!! WillyT Mar 2013 #49

My only comment is this did not start with Obama..... Swede Atlanta Mar 2013 #51

+1 freshwest Mar 2013 #58

I think you have timdog44 Mar 2013 #66

As a former public school teacher, I say you have pretty good insight into the situation. Regarding Dark n Stormy Knight Mar 2013 #71

It didn't start with Obama. LWolf Mar 2013 #73

So what? woo me with science Mar 2013 #102

Virtually everything junior foisted upon America was imo either: illegal, immoral, inhumane, indepat Mar 2013 #54

Du rec. Nt xchrom Mar 2013 #65

K&R Canuckistanian Mar 2013 #80

Atlanta could do for education "reform" what Newtown did for reasonble gun control. hay rick Mar 2013 #93

I’m an Obama guy and think many of his center right positions were always as a result of his busterbrown Mar 2013 #96

Dr Beverly Hall/Atlanta School cheating/NYTimes ReRe Mar 2013 #99

K&R woo me with science Mar 2013 #100

An embarassment? Yea, but very profitable. AnotherMcIntosh Mar 2013 #101

Ed reform is the sh/t. blkmusclmachine Mar 2013 #103

It's not complicated: Follow The Politicians fredamae Mar 2013 #104

Passed on to my state ed committee ranking member. Thav Mar 2013 #105

You've probably read this, but... savebigbird Apr 2013 #119

Chris Hayes is doing a segment on this tonight octoberlib Apr 2013 #121