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reACTIONary

(6,935 posts)
78. I think you make some very good points...
Sat Mar 30, 2013, 07:36 PM
Mar 2013

...and I can agree with much of what you say. However, it wouldn't be much of a "forum" if all we did was agree with one another, so I would like to offer you some differing perspectives.

Evaluation of individual teachers based on their students test scores

This is indeed difficult, but statistical techniques exist for "zeroing out" the factors affecting results outside the teacher's area of influence. This very definitely is possible, although it is not always possible, and is not easy. And it would not be a good idea to make it the only evaluation criteria.

Here is a short description from a report that is critical of this technique:

Recent statistical advances have made it possible to look at student achievement gains after adjusting for some student and school characteristics. These approaches that measure growth using “value-added modeling” (VAM) are fairer comparisons of teachers than judgments based on their students’ test scores at a single point in time or comparisons of student cohorts that involve different students at two points in time. VAM methods have also contributed to stronger analyses of school progress, program influences, and the validity of evaluation methods than were previously possible.


Problems with the use of student test scores to evaluate teachers

The single greatest predictor of a standardized test, then and now, is SES: economic and education levels.

Results on these test do indeed strongly correlate with the socioeconomic status and educational attainment of the student's family. That doesn't mean that they don't measure the educational attainment of the student or the effectiveness of the school system that the student is in. It means that those factors also correlate with socioeconomic status.

If we don't measure and monitor the attainment gap between students of lower and higher socioeconomic status, and look for other such factors such as ethnicity, we are not going to be in a position to understand how well our country serves all of its citizens, and we are going to give those who do not have that purpose a free pass. It would be a great day for the racists in Mississippi to be able to ignore the attainment gap between rich and poor.

What is the best way to provide quality education for every student? A culture of collaboration, where everyone supports each other, or a culture of competition, where someone else's "failure" makes you look better?

Human culture is both collaborative and competitive, and both aspects contribute to our individual and and our collective achievement. However, I don't think that standardized testing of individuals is biased toward one approach or the other. If a collaborative learning environment helps everyone learn more, that would show up on standardized tests, and testing would be able to differentiate that approach as being superior. Of course, it might be that a competitive approach does better, or does better for some but not others. It would be useful to understand these dynamics, but it would require testing, statistical analysis, and careful experimentation to do so.

It IS a good way to keep eroding the nation's confidence in teachers, and the ability educators have to affect education policy.

I agree that standardized testing and other characterizations of our nation's public schools have been used as a political tool to advance ideological agendas that are not in our nation's interest. However, when teachers and those who support public schools express hostility towards objective measurement of their work and statistical evaluation of their techniques they appear to be defensive and seem to have something to hide. Its as if they are saying "nothing to see here, move along, move along." This plays into the hands of their critics and those who are working against public schools.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

K&R idwiyo Mar 2013 #1
K&R Teamster Jeff Mar 2013 #2
K&R G_j Mar 2013 #3
Post removed Post removed Mar 2013 #4
Damn! That might leave a well earned mark. TheKentuckian Mar 2013 #6
Well, think about it. Le Taz Hot Mar 2013 #5
And Arne Duncan never spent a day in a school teaching and so does not know timdog44 Mar 2013 #44
that is a gross exaggeration, and this cheating occurred before obama was elected. mopinko Mar 2013 #68
When are the links coming that prove what a wonderful job UnrepentantLiberal Mar 2013 #7
That's one thing you will never find here because duffyduff Mar 2013 #59
The sad thing is that a lot of the things in-the-trenches teachers advocate winter is coming Mar 2013 #8
those jerks and their minions shoudl be prosecutedunder RICO, elehhhhna Mar 2013 #9
And it is the kids who suffer most of all Fearless Mar 2013 #10
I'm not sure how protecting the integrety of the system... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #11
Maybe because tests abelenkpe Mar 2013 #16
Absolutely Iwillnevergiveup Mar 2013 #20
In general, what is wrong with "teaching to the tests"... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #23
Tests don't -- and can't -- measure understanding starroute Mar 2013 #28
I think your observation may refer to a restrictive subset of tests... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #38
Au contraire. AdHocSolver Mar 2013 #77
+1 Starry Messenger Mar 2013 #79
Ma réplique... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #81
Standardized tests don't necessarily measure anything. AdHocSolver Mar 2013 #91
The Bell Curve... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #94
I was clueless until I had kids in the school system-Ed has changed beyond the comprehension of many lunasun Mar 2013 #97
There is no worse system of education than 'teaching to the test'. sabrina 1 Mar 2013 #56
Fine. But do you have any testing to back that up? reACTIONary Mar 2013 #87
You don't teach to any test. That is not the purpose of testing. You EDUCATE sabrina 1 Mar 2013 #95
+1000s (n/t) bread_and_roses Mar 2013 #107
Nothing. Works fine for lawyers, CPAs, and other industry exams... Comrade_McKenzie Mar 2013 #84
Solidarity, Comrade! (nt) reACTIONary Mar 2013 #88
Except that's not how it works. jeff47 Mar 2013 #114
What would you propose? What would be the best way... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #22
Either the Finnish system which does not test or a portfolio system where kids Orlandodem Mar 2013 #36
I've heard of the "Finnish system" and just looked it up... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #43
Finland, a tiny country with a tiny population, is not the United States duffyduff Mar 2013 #60
How 'bout we trust teachers to solve this? jeff47 Mar 2013 #39
I can give you a very authoratative answer... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #47
No, we don't. jeff47 Mar 2013 #52
I think you make a good point... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #55
You're still missing the central point jeff47 Mar 2013 #57
dumb or hungry? reACTIONary Mar 2013 #92
Apparently, you needed more tests in reading comprehension jeff47 Mar 2013 #113
Teachers can evaluate students... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #118
No. Students are not "products" - nor is knowledge a "product." bread_and_roses Mar 2013 #110
The Hallowed Halls... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #112
The education "reformers" are starting at the WRONG END. AdHocSolver Mar 2013 #82
RE: They did an across-the-board reevaluation of everything... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #85
If you don't understand what is wrong with that, LWolf Mar 2013 #75
I think you make some very good points... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #78
Did you know that, LWolf Mar 2013 #86
Thanks for the reply... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #111
I'm going to have to make this one the last. LWolf Mar 2013 #115
Thanks again, I'll read through it carefully (nt) reACTIONary Mar 2013 #117
When non-teachers who don't know anything about education tell teachers how to do their jobs, duffyduff Apr 2013 #122
Do teachers... reACTIONary Apr 2013 #123
amen to all that (n/t) bread_and_roses Mar 2013 #116
Because tests that do that don't exist. proud2BlibKansan Mar 2013 #108
And she wouldn't have been caught if the teachers hadn't told on her. proud2BlibKansan Mar 2013 #12
Except that isn't how I would generally describe what happened... cherokeeprogressive Mar 2013 #67
There are umpteen versions of how it all came down. proud2BlibKansan Mar 2013 #70
k&r Starry Messenger Mar 2013 #13
But but but ... 99Forever Mar 2013 #14
K&R formercia Mar 2013 #15
LOL, someone alerted this and lost badly! Here are the results! Logical Mar 2013 #17
"birtheresque comment" zeemike Mar 2013 #24
I thank you jury and my child thanks you too. liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #62
You get what you measure. nt antigop Mar 2013 #18
And one wonders why anyone would be against measurement. (nt) reACTIONary Mar 2013 #26
depends upon what is being measured and what we are "getting". In this case, look what allegedly antigop Mar 2013 #33
Agreed. And I hope this serves an example for others. (nt) reACTIONary Mar 2013 #89
There are so many answers and I wish I could go into them all now. BrotherIvan Mar 2013 #40
My bet is... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #90
Since learning is strictly up to the desire or ability of kids to learn, it can't measure duffyduff Mar 2013 #64
You don't believe that teachers can be inspiring... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #83
K&R!!!!! Public not profit! Dark n Stormy Knight Mar 2013 #19
A very hearty K&R! demmiblue Mar 2013 #21
45 years ?!? Geez, it's not like she crashed the economy or lied us into war. eppur_se_muova Mar 2013 #25
A good article, a stupid OP bhikkhu Mar 2013 #27
Would you say that Obama and Duncan have pushed back on MannyGoldstein Mar 2013 #32
As far as I can see, they've done nothing in 4 years on that bhikkhu Mar 2013 #37
Race to the Top is Obama's baby and is 1,000 times worse than NCLB. n/t duffyduff Mar 2013 #63
+10000000 nt woo me with science Apr 2013 #120
Check this Salon article it's happening in other places. erinlough Mar 2013 #34
Cheating Runs Rampant/Salon/May2012 ReRe Mar 2013 #98
Good post! A very astute point... reACTIONary Mar 2013 #106
We get it. savebigbird Mar 2013 #109
Arne Duncan following NCLB is a trainwreck for public education PufPuf23 Mar 2013 #29
It sure has been. nt LWolf Mar 2013 #30
sssshhhhhh... we best be silent.. nt PufPuf23 Mar 2013 #31
As much as DU hates Bush with a passion you would think more people would liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #74
This article is more sulphurdunn Mar 2013 #35
Interesting, thank you. Starry Messenger Mar 2013 #41
I was chased off another site for daring to speak against the Gates foundation BrotherIvan Mar 2013 #42
Not sure what you said to get chased off timdog44 Mar 2013 #48
He has plenty of money to buy good PR though BrotherIvan Mar 2013 #53
Here's the problem: for the "reformers", it isn't about education. Marr Mar 2013 #45
Absolutely. BrotherIvan Mar 2013 #46
Sadly, both Eli Broad sulphurdunn Mar 2013 #50
Even convicted criminals are. Case in point: Michael Milken. n/t duffyduff Mar 2013 #61
Yea, he's come along way sulphurdunn Mar 2013 #69
He and Bill Bennett are in cahoots with K-12 duffyduff Mar 2013 #76
yes, the democratic politicians are perfectly fine with sacrificing unions to get some corporate liberal_at_heart Mar 2013 #72
K & R !!! WillyT Mar 2013 #49
My only comment is this did not start with Obama..... Swede Atlanta Mar 2013 #51
+1 freshwest Mar 2013 #58
I think you have timdog44 Mar 2013 #66
As a former public school teacher, I say you have pretty good insight into the situation. Regarding Dark n Stormy Knight Mar 2013 #71
It didn't start with Obama. LWolf Mar 2013 #73
So what? woo me with science Mar 2013 #102
Virtually everything junior foisted upon America was imo either: illegal, immoral, inhumane, indepat Mar 2013 #54
Du rec. Nt xchrom Mar 2013 #65
K&R Canuckistanian Mar 2013 #80
Atlanta could do for education "reform" what Newtown did for reasonble gun control. hay rick Mar 2013 #93
I’m an Obama guy and think many of his center right positions were always as a result of his busterbrown Mar 2013 #96
Dr Beverly Hall/Atlanta School cheating/NYTimes ReRe Mar 2013 #99
K&R woo me with science Mar 2013 #100
An embarassment? Yea, but very profitable. AnotherMcIntosh Mar 2013 #101
Ed reform is the sh/t. blkmusclmachine Mar 2013 #103
It's not complicated: Follow The Politicians fredamae Mar 2013 #104
Passed on to my state ed committee ranking member. Thav Mar 2013 #105
You've probably read this, but... savebigbird Apr 2013 #119
Chris Hayes is doing a segment on this tonight octoberlib Apr 2013 #121
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