General Discussion

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)

200. Young people don't learn right from wrong in jail. Most civilized nations do not

Mon Apr 1, 2013, 10:32 PM

Apr 2013

use jail to scare children. The most successful programs when young people show signs of going down the wrong path are a combination of discipline and redirection, iow, rehabilitation rather than all punishment. Our system, thanks to the 'tough on crime' Republicans, is all about revenge and punishment. Since it has not worked, maybe it's time to try to think of better ways to create a better society.

Or we could just ignore it, complain when things like this happen, and just keep throwing people in jail for a while where they learn to be even better criminals. Our recidivism rates are among the highest in the civilized world. The goal should be to create productive citizens rather than create more criminals.

Poverty doesn't excuse not knowing right from wrong. We have wealthy Wall St. Bankers who don't know right from wrong either. I wonder why throwing THEM in jail for a while to scare them, is never even considered.

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300+ teens attack pedestrians on Chicago's Magnificent mile. 28 arrested [View all] cali Apr 2013 OP

Glad I was out of town on Saturday frazzled Apr 2013 #1

Just wait until the gangs get tired of just attacking people in their own neighborhoods and Mich Ave AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #40

This kind of paranoia baffles me frazzled Apr 2013 #58

Projection much? AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #62

No, that anyone needs an assault weapon to protect themselves frazzled Apr 2013 #67

A good friend of mine was shot in his own home by an armed burglar. Mojorabbit Apr 2013 #221

Everyone's experience is identical to yours? Marengo Apr 2013 #251

Of course. I figure the people in Sandy Hook probably didn't give it much thought. jmg257 Apr 2013 #73

I'm pretty sure little kids in school, teachers, people HappyMe Apr 2013 #82

This message was self-deleted by its author Matariki Apr 2013 #64

Well, why are you so afraid of rifles with protruding pistol grips? krispos42 Apr 2013 #150

I'm sure if our gun toting friends had been in Chicago, a bunch of unarmed teenagers would be dead, Hoyt Apr 2013 #157

Considering the number of teens arrested for battery... krispos42 Apr 2013 #159

Few, if any, were hurt. Of course a "menacing" crowd would be justification enought for gun cultists Hoyt Apr 2013 #165

Umm...because gun fuckers keep using them to shoot & kill bunches of people??? jmg257 Apr 2013 #174

So, same gun without z pistol grip is somehow better? n/t krispos42 Apr 2013 #179

Of course not...not if it is used to murder and shoot bunches of people. jmg257 Apr 2013 #180

That's what makes a rifle into an "assault weapon" krispos42 Apr 2013 #184

That's great. But I didn't write the AWB. I have read the federal bills, and numerous jmg257 Apr 2013 #185

*shrug* krispos42 Apr 2013 #191

Yep..like I said, AWBs don't usually go far enough. For various reasons, jmg257 Apr 2013 #194

"assault weapon" is an arbitrary term. krispos42 Apr 2013 #197

Of course its an arbitrary term. As long as it gets codified, who cares? jmg257 Apr 2013 #202

Thats what we need, an "authoritive board" pipoman Apr 2013 #192

Naa..just to avoid manufacturers exploiting 'loopholes' in order to skirt the jmg257 Apr 2013 #193

An AR without pipoman Apr 2013 #196

Great. Next time some gun fucker grabs an old Woodmaster and jmg257 Apr 2013 #199

Yeah, right pipoman Apr 2013 #214

Actually I want effective laws that can't be easily by-passed by jmg257 Apr 2013 #216

Except the grip (and a couple other cosmetic differences) is all that pipoman Apr 2013 #218

" Why are people always so afraid someone will invade their home?" alp227 Apr 2013 #154

huh? peachwired7 Apr 2013 #205

I'm not sure "savages" describes this situation, especially if you think playing judge, jury, Hoyt Apr 2013 #217

Randomly attacking pedestrians is not "dead wrong"? Marengo Apr 2013 #223

Shooting unarmed teenagers isn't either. Hoyt Apr 2013 #224

You didn't answer the question... Marengo Apr 2013 #238

Because it is a stupid question, posed by one who thinks a bunch of armed bigots Hoyt Apr 2013 #239

Your words: "Not saying they were right, but not dead wrong either."... Marengo Apr 2013 #241

Your obtusement, it means what they did was wrong, but not wrong enough for a Hoyt Apr 2013 #242

Your poor grammar...I suggest a rewrite if that is what you meant to convey. Marengo Apr 2013 #243

I obviously, except to you, did not use it in that context. Hoyt Apr 2013 #244

The definition of the idiom in question is clear, you misused it regardless of context Marengo Apr 2013 #245

Explain: "I really wish you would leave your guns at home." Marengo Apr 2013 #246

I am awaiting an explaination of your statement "I really wish you would leave your guns at home." Marengo Apr 2013 #259

I grew tired of having to explain everything to you. I think it is plain enough. n/t Hoyt Apr 2013 #261

Nope, you're not weaseling out of this one. I'm waiting for an explaination... Marengo Apr 2013 #268

Very, very little of what they actually did could be characterized as "attacking." Gidney N Cloyd Apr 2013 #225

According to the article, 28 have been charged with battery... Marengo Apr 2013 #240

They were shagged into the Red Line by the cops and some folks got tussled in the process. Gidney N Cloyd Apr 2013 #247

The charges as mentioned in the article are unjustified? Marengo Apr 2013 #248

What? All was cool until the cops showed up? Skip Intro Apr 2013 #249

Heavens, no! They were being flagrantly black, teenaged, and scary! Gidney N Cloyd Apr 2013 #252

. Skip Intro Apr 2013 #262

Your post reeks of wishful thinking. (nt) Paladin Apr 2013 #71

this made you think of guns? Enrique Apr 2013 #103

No, (1) the tag-line in the post ("Renew the Assault Weapons Ban") and (2) the statement "Glad I was AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #107

how about "no fatalities" DonCoquixote Apr 2013 #135

CPD is severely understaffed elehhhhna Apr 2013 #118

chicago has 12,244 police officers, one for every .019th of a square mile. how many do you think HiPointDem Apr 2013 #178

When the weak are defenseless pipoman Apr 2013 #2

What are you saying exactly? frazzled Apr 2013 #3

I think it was a JohnnyBoots Apr 2013 #4

OMG frazzled Apr 2013 #6

Where did I advocate for a bloodbath? JohnnyBoots Apr 2013 #9

The NRA wants guns out of the hands of people who are potentially dangerous to others HereSince1628 Apr 2013 #14

Your JohnnyBoots Apr 2013 #20

Oh, the nature of the intimidation you are implying is readily shown... HereSince1628 Apr 2013 #25

I'm not a gunner, but what's objectionable geek tragedy Apr 2013 #27

I didn't say it was objectionable, I said it was heavily ironic HereSince1628 Apr 2013 #30

So, JohnnyBoots Apr 2013 #31

Well, now you're just running around trying to change the subject. HereSince1628 Apr 2013 #32

I can totally see why you JohnnyBoots Apr 2013 #33

And that's an adhominem yet another fallacy. HereSince1628 Apr 2013 #34

What? JohnnyBoots Apr 2013 #39

reply #30 to GT HereSince1628 Apr 2013 #42

You never answered my question from the above post... JohnnyBoots Apr 2013 #48

I don't have preferences about what criminals think. But you've raised another curiosity HereSince1628 Apr 2013 #54

You still didn't answer the question. JohnnyBoots Apr 2013 #56

I did answer it. I just didn't answer it the way you wanted it answered HereSince1628 Apr 2013 #57

Wouldn't you prefer that criminals didn't have such unfettered acces to guns, jmg257 Apr 2013 #195

I think calling someone an authoritarian merely for holding a different position is LanternWaste Apr 2013 #181

Why is it so bad?? It has zero to do with weapons, and everything to do with sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #24

I agree with you that at it's JohnnyBoots Apr 2013 #28

The Mag Mile is heavily patrolled. I don't see how the possibility of a few CCWs would be >>> Gidney N Cloyd Apr 2013 #41

A slap on the wrist in the juvi justice system geek tragedy Apr 2013 #60

Fair enough, but I'd still prefer too-light punishment over the risk of >>> Gidney N Cloyd Apr 2013 #74

I agree. nt geek tragedy Apr 2013 #78

slap on the wrist? not if you're black in illinois. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #182

No matter how YOU intend that, it can also suggest thuggery as political action, which can be an patrice Apr 2013 #114

"thuggery as political action." I doubt some F.U.s think along those lines... Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #272

Since when did he advocate "for a bloodbath"? Why isn't the truth good enough? AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #11

x2 AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #10

Yep..that's what it was.. pipoman Apr 2013 #17

Where are the parents of these hoodlums? malibea Apr 2013 #99

our teens all across america elehhhhna Apr 2013 #125

It was Spring Break for kids, not parents, who are likely working, or at night, hear ancianita Apr 2013 #130

WE pay! malibea Apr 2013 #271

pipeman thinks guns solve everything Skittles Apr 2013 #220

Removed (reply to wrong response) frazzled Apr 2013 #5

You wanna gun down a bunch of minors, be my guest Blue_Tires Apr 2013 #22

More people die annually from beatings than pipoman Apr 2013 #117

Why do you single out rifles instead of saying "guns" in general? gollygee Apr 2013 #120

Have you not noticed pipoman Apr 2013 #128

No one would be carrying an assault rifle down Michigan Ave. gollygee Apr 2013 #132

Some would claim they have (or should have) the right to carry an assault rifle down Michigan Ave. Gidney N Cloyd Apr 2013 #144

Apparently the context of the discussion is different than what you pipoman Apr 2013 #188

Currently it's on AWB because that's faster killing. Going after handguns in the hands of criminals freshwest Apr 2013 #266

Except pipoman Apr 2013 #269

Your data is correct. And will be roundly ignored. Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #273

As usual.. pipoman Apr 2013 #274

if they push your mom inot oncoming traffic, elehhhhna Apr 2013 #126

Possibly... Blue_Tires Apr 2013 #155

Isn't it funny how pipoman Apr 2013 #189

isn't that just human nature? Blue_Tires Apr 2013 #228

We've had teens assaulting older people here for no reason other than age. n/t L0oniX Apr 2013 #55

No doubt.. pipoman Apr 2013 #122

Oh! marsis Apr 2013 #106

I forgot Bernie Goetz is out of jail Capt. Obvious Apr 2013 #131

as he should be.. pipoman Apr 2013 #190

GOETZ/ZIMMERMAN 2016 Capt. Obvious Apr 2013 #227

LMAO. With folks like LaPierre appointed to high Cabinet positions or Supreme Court. Hoyt Apr 2013 #229

GAH! Don't even think that. freshwest Apr 2013 #263

stinks of the fake 'wilding' story. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #7

oh fer fuck's sake. post any evidence at all that this story is fake cali Apr 2013 #15

Do you have a problem with Trotskyite revisionism? grantcart Apr 2013 #53

revisionism is the province of chicago's corporate-owned media. update! HiPointDem Apr 2013 #153

i have no evidence this story is fake. but others have been, & when i hear "gangs of 300 blacks HiPointDem Apr 2013 #133

I saw nothing in the report (written or visual) that said they were black. n/t OnlinePoker Apr 2013 #187

but they were. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #234

That may be, but you said "When I hear gangs of 300 blacks" OnlinePoker Apr 2013 #235

the coverage made it completely clear that they were black. and the historical context is HiPointDem Apr 2013 #236

Yup, except for the dozens of arrests and scores of witnesses, it's exactly the same. 11 Bravo Apr 2013 #123

were you one of them? cause there were arrests and witnesses in the central park case too. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #127

Operative terms: "dozens" and "scores". That was not the case in the NYPD ... 11 Bravo Apr 2013 #136

because the media always reports accurately. especially the chicago media. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #139

update! yes, i have reason to think. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #142

THANK YOU Gidney N Cloyd Apr 2013 #148

This IS what they said in local media reports...they started to fight lunasun Apr 2013 #211

Good grief! HappyMe Apr 2013 #8

I'm sure next week tom2255 Apr 2013 #18

They're thugs. HappyMe Apr 2013 #23

In the past, the Chicago Tribune, the Sun Times, and others in the Chicago-area MSM have AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #12

like when the beaches in CHGO are suddenly closed on hot weekends -- elehhhhna Apr 2013 #137

Where do you get this insane shit about Chicago? ieoeja Apr 2013 #146

"aren't you the one is always" -- No. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #158

Post removed Post removed Apr 2013 #164

Less Wrist Slapping and More Punishment grilled onions Apr 2013 #13

Less poverty and more education would solve the problem. But let's keep filling sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #26

We should do both. geek tragedy Apr 2013 #29

We do one of those things. Which is why we have the most people incarcerated sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #35

The perpetrators here will suffer virtually no consequences geek tragedy Apr 2013 #37

They have already suffered the consequences of a society that doesn't care about sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #44

They are more victimizers than victims. And the people they prey upon geek tragedy Apr 2013 #47

Exactly. These aren't young Jean Valjeans stealing bread... WorseBeforeBetter Apr 2013 #66

I agree about the poverty and education. HappyMe Apr 2013 #36

The problem is the jails are full and we have run out of money AngryAmish Apr 2013 #86

It would be interesting to know how much of our violent culture is spurred by poor economics. CrispyQ Apr 2013 #109

So a person is beaten and robbed tom2255 Apr 2013 #16

I guess one wouldn't, and would organize their outings very carefully. Women have to do that anyway. freshwest Apr 2013 #265

Charge them as felons and let them do some real jail time. geek tragedy Apr 2013 #19

We do that already. We try children as adults and throw them in jail sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #38

Illinois only allows "serious offenses" to land a juvenile in adult court. geek tragedy Apr 2013 #43

yeah, americans kids get slaps on the wrist, that's why they're so bad. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #256

I think that a few days in jail may just HappyMe Apr 2013 #45

No, it does not work. Why do you think 'a few days in jail' is the way to 'scare' sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #49

So, they should just be asked pretty please with sugar on it geek tragedy Apr 2013 #50

Yes, that's exactly what she's saying. Egalitarian Thug Apr 2013 #209

My sons have never robbed or beaten anyone. HappyMe Apr 2013 #51

Young people don't learn right from wrong in jail. Most civilized nations do not sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #200

Hey Sabrina1, I'm curious what you think would be an appropriate action to take octothorpe Apr 2013 #70

I don't know anything about them. My comments are about preventing sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #198

There have been more than two. There are two that have been reported. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #46

The police showed up pretty quickly and handled things. Gidney N Cloyd Apr 2013 #21

Actually, they let most of them get away. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #65

Because most of them hadn't done much besides show up. And they apparently dispersed when told to. Gidney N Cloyd Apr 2013 #68

I haven't paid much attention, but it seems like Chicago is like NYC in the 80's. TwilightGardener Apr 2013 #52

Just watching that video all I can is say wow!! SpartanDem Apr 2013 #59

What a bizarre story. It's implied there was some sort coordination. Marr Apr 2013 #61

It started in 2011, but has not been covered by the MSM until now. There were too many AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #76

It has been all over the fucking media in Chicago. Where are you getting this crazy shit?!? ieoeja Apr 2013 #147

Saw a story about how the NYPD was gearing up to fight this as well. AngryOldDem Apr 2013 #254

I think these are a variety of 'flash mobs' organized by social media use. freshwest Apr 2013 #264

More than 300? That's crazy. That's a sign that something is seriously wrong octothorpe Apr 2013 #63

Yes, something is seriously wrong but nobody is willing to even talk about the core problem slackmaster Apr 2013 #72

do tell us what the core problem is. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #176

We can't discuss it here. slackmaster Apr 2013 #226

wtf? HiPointDem Apr 2013 #230

Message deleted by DU the Administrators slackmaster Apr 2013 #232

if you're going where i think you're going, not liking your drift HiPointDem Apr 2013 #233

Your instincts are sound. (nt) Paladin Apr 2013 #260

then we'll have to fill it in Enrique Apr 2013 #237

Throw the book at every one of them. Peter cotton Apr 2013 #69

hey, yeah, an assault weapon could have taken out all 300+ teens! (and everyone else) librechik Apr 2013 #75

Finally someone in this thread's got their thinkin' cap on! Gidney N Cloyd Apr 2013 #79

STRAWMAN. No one is making that argument other than you. Why isn't the truth good enough? AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #80

what? No one? Really? The answer is, we activists tend to seize on small everyday news items librechik Apr 2013 #83

What I find is that gun-controllers (or people-controller wannabes) regularly make straw-man AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #102

I find that "controller" is a negative label librechik Apr 2013 #115

It's obvious when those who promote more and more guns in public pounce on a topic like this. Hoyt Apr 2013 #169

This one sure brought the authoritarians... 99Forever Apr 2013 #77

These thugs weren't stealing to put food on the table. geek tragedy Apr 2013 #81

You assume to know that how? 99Forever Apr 2013 #85

I know as much as you do. geek tragedy Apr 2013 #87

You think these kids got pissed off... 99Forever Apr 2013 #93

No, this is a bunch of stupid-ass violent punks geek tragedy Apr 2013 #94

Now, now- they're just "acting out their anger over being poor"... richmwill Apr 2013 #108

I guess the people who are urging geek tragedy Apr 2013 #110

You are the one who seems to feel a moral superiority� you are the one calling out KittyWampus Apr 2013 #91

They are authoritarians, mam. 99Forever Apr 2013 #96

You disproved your own claim with that definition. geek tragedy Apr 2013 #98

Absolutely. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #104

These kids weren't being Robin Hood types. HappyMe Apr 2013 #84

Who the fuck said they were "being Robin Hood types." 99Forever Apr 2013 #88

How do you know so much about their geek tragedy Apr 2013 #90

How the hell do you know that HappyMe Apr 2013 #92

Do they seem happy to you? 99Forever Apr 2013 #97

Again, you don't know anything of the sort. HappyMe Apr 2013 #100

There's no use in holding a conversation... 99Forever Apr 2013 #116

Oh please, like they have any other tactics or desire to converse. Egalitarian Thug Apr 2013 #212

A literary reference that simultaneously demonstrates that you totally missed the point of Egalitarian Thug Apr 2013 #206

coincidentally they all got pissed and desperate the first weekend of elehhhhna Apr 2013 #145

coincidentally, no pedestrians were attacked, though it was reported that way in the media. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #160

If so, then Andrew Holmes report from the Good Men Project is wrong. See post #161. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #162

yes, it probably is. since none of the people reportedly attacked by 300 black teens have come HiPointDem Apr 2013 #166

How exactly do you know that "none of the people reportedly attacked by 300 black teens have come AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #168

because they haven't been in the media accounts. duh. video. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #170

a group of women on the "el" were grabbed and slapped elehhhhna Apr 2013 #172

not by a gang of 300 black teens. but whatever. feel free to post the story about the women HiPointDem Apr 2013 #175

LOL sylvi Apr 2013 #213

and neither did the people in this story. update! HiPointDem Apr 2013 #156

Authority in proper measure is essential to civilization. And you better face the fact KittyWampus Apr 2013 #89

The fact you must face is that authoritarianism creates those values. Egalitarian Thug Apr 2013 #134

A few anti-responsibility excuse-makers too. nt Skip Intro Apr 2013 #111

Spoken like someone sitting behind a keyboard Dreamer Tatum Apr 2013 #113

it`s going to be a long summer in chicago madrchsod Apr 2013 #95

Upsetting... but it least it may make people pay attention to problems in other parts of the city JPZenger Apr 2013 #101

And that's the thing. The people most victimized by geek tragedy Apr 2013 #105

They are all victims of a greedy, corporate society that becomes less equal sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #121

Who said I was advocating violence? geek tragedy Apr 2013 #124

France wasn't like 1788 France either until it was. It took a while, too bad when the signs sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #129

For which violent crimes do you oppose jail/prison time and for which geek tragedy Apr 2013 #140

I'm talking about preventing violent crime. sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #173

Thanks Sabrina. 99Forever Apr 2013 #143

Not a chance. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #138

Most of the problems were just moobu2 Apr 2013 #112

In STL it has become known as the game Beatdown,, benld74 Apr 2013 #119

UPDATE: 42nd ward Alderman O'Reilly tells what really happened frazzled Apr 2013 #141

is that "what really happened" or is it geek tragedy Apr 2013 #149

My alderman is pretty trustworthy, and a straight shooter frazzled Apr 2013 #151

Should somebody other than an Alderman be believed? AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #161

like maybe the police? HiPointDem Apr 2013 #163

Actually, that is the exact opposite of what some cops have been reporting, including AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #167

second city cop is a retired blogger. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #171

This isn't inconsistent with a scenario of cops coming in for general crowd control and >>> Gidney N Cloyd Apr 2013 #186

Would you mind posting a link to that? Skip Intro Apr 2013 #208

it's from the alderman's email in post 141. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #219

Thanks for this. Given the witness accounts in the video,this version of the story seems about right Gidney N Cloyd Apr 2013 #152

"dozens of groups began randomly attacking pedestrians" Skip Intro Apr 2013 #201

my guess is they're not. since the only persons i've seen who were attacked or robbed was HiPointDem Apr 2013 #257

This thread has turned into quite the embarrassment, DU. Robb Apr 2013 #177

Several of the responses mirror those at our opposite number at FR. Starry Messenger Apr 2013 #183

How's that? nt Skip Intro Apr 2013 #203

Agreed. Gidney N Cloyd Apr 2013 #215

Actually, many of the responses were quite predictabe Ikonoklast Apr 2013 #222

what? thousands of shoppers were robbed and murdered? HiPointDem Apr 2013 #231

Wild in the streets Renew Deal Apr 2013 #204

Most of these thugs will have wasted lives. Dawson Leery Apr 2013 #207

I remember the reports of the fake riots during Katrina and the denial of Danzinger Bride graham4anything Apr 2013 #210

They weren't vigilantes, they were NOPD police. NutmegYankee Apr 2013 #250

I'm sure they're all a bunch of nice kids, really. Quantess Apr 2013 #253

Just misunderstood. AngryOldDem Apr 2013 #255

I was being sarcastic. Quantess Apr 2013 #258

I know you were. AngryOldDem Apr 2013 #267

My heart bleeds for those poor, misunderstood teenagers, Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #270