Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

struggle4progress

(125,293 posts)
87. Manning isn't being persecuted, as far as I can tell. He had access to restricted information,
Thu Apr 4, 2013, 02:49 PM
Apr 2013

due to his position as an enlisted man in the army, and after warnings from the army about his carelessness regarding security, he seems to have decided to release something like three quarters of a million documents to Wikileaks, including perhaps a quarter of a million diplomatic cables stretching over a period of forty some years

For a very small handful of those documents, he might be able to say honestly that he was driven by concern or outrage, but the size of the release clearly indicates that he could not possibly have even read most of the documents, let alone understood in any coherent way what the documents might mean. There were avenues along which Manning could have proceeded lawfully: in particular, under Federal law, he would have been entirely safe to raise any issues and shown any documents, that might have concerned him, with his Representative or Senators. Had he been interested in leaking to the press a small number of documents relating to specific issues, he might well have gotten cooperation from the press and might have much more support

Instead, he chose to send everything to a third party, whose use of it would be unclear. The Index on Censorship broke with Assange when reports surfaced that Assange's friend "Israel Shamir" had been peddling the embassy cables to the Belarusian regime to help them identify dissidents. A number of reporters at the Guardian became disillusioned when Assange, in response to concerns that the Taliban would use the cables to identify persons cooperating with the US in Afghanistan, expressed the opinion that the safety of such persons was of no interest to him

The US is governed by civilians, not by the military, and the conduct of US foreign policy, including decisions about release of embassy cables, lies with the civilian government, not with military personnel -- whether they be generals or privates. Manning's vandalism forced the re-posting of a number of foreign service employees, at some considerable cost and inconvenience

There is no credible scenario under which Manning would not be prosecuted under the UCMJ for randomly dumping hundreds of thousands of documents. If the military refused to prosecute him, the civilian government could only interpret that as a violation of the principle of civilian rule, and military officers would be removed and replaced until the principle of civilian rule was decisively restored

The military, moreover, will have its own internal reasons to prosecute: military matters often require a certain secrecy, and the military is not going to establish the precedent that dumping huge volumes of information, for everyone to read, is acceptable. I think we can say with some confidence that during WWI or WWII any Allied soldier, who released to the general public thousands of restricted documents (regardless of their content), would have been hanged quickly: fortunately, these times are not those times, so Manning does not face execution, though he will face a long prison term. I hope he gets out of prison still young enough to do something worthwhile, since he obviously has some intelligence

I suspect you and I share similar views regarding oligarchy, plutocracy, and war-mongering profiteers. If we do not share similar views regarding the importance of conventionial politics, then I might urge you to heed the advice of Anatoly Kuznetsov's advice in his lengthy Babi-Yar: "Despise politics, but never ignore it!" I hope we share similar views regarding the importance of grassroots organizing. But IMO success requires careful accurate thinking rooted in facts and details, and I worry that over-hasty idealization and easy sloganeering produces setbacks, disillusionment, and cynicism

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Sounds good for Assange. Get the Swedes to announce the same and it'll be done. freshwest Apr 2013 #1
Trouble is, plenty of evidence makes Sweden a part of the Extraordinary Rendition... TheMadMonk Apr 2013 #12
Re: Manning. As was said in the 60s, military justice is to justice as military music is to music. byeya Apr 2013 #2
I worship John Phillip Sousa. xtraxritical Apr 2013 #16
;-) ReRe Apr 2013 #18
Third share first to first first in two years that's me 'n my trumpet. xtraxritical Apr 2013 #26
Entire percussion section & trumpet in HS, French Horn in college, piano, guitar.... ReRe Apr 2013 #27
I put down the horn quite a while ago, now I just do guitar. xtraxritical Apr 2013 #54
I like Sousa too. ananda Apr 2013 #37
What is on trial here is democracy malaise Apr 2013 #3
+10000000 woo me with science Apr 2013 #36
But it's okay for Assange to do so. randome Apr 2013 #38
Assange already won. It was clear from the day Wikileaks posted the CIA memo sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #55
So Assange should be able to return to Sweden for questioning as he promised to do (nt) Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #4
That was good. UnrepentantLiberal Apr 2013 #8
Yep. Aug., 2012 ~ Zorra Apr 2013 #5
All they have to do is guarantee not to extradite him. bemildred Apr 2013 #6
Maybe they should question him in a location other than Sweden. JVS Apr 2013 #9
Hey, that could work too! nt bemildred Apr 2013 #10
Only if he agrees to be taken into custody if the Swedes decide to arrest him. hack89 Apr 2013 #11
Arrest him for having sex without a condom without consent? JDPriestly Apr 2013 #19
It might be baseless - that's why we have judicial systems to sort such things out. hack89 Apr 2013 #20
Seriously... ReRe Apr 2013 #23
And neither of the women accused Assange of rape Matariki Apr 2013 #28
Well, the STD test is moot now... ReRe Apr 2013 #29
It's my understanding that he gave the evidence required for the STD JDPriestly Apr 2013 #31
Untrue. The investigation into the rape complaint was reopened on the appeal of the complainant struggle4progress Apr 2013 #79
True. As much as you seem to wish it were not. Matariki Apr 2013 #88
You wrote: "neither of the women accused Assange of rape." But one did, struggle4progress Apr 2013 #90
Your link was old. AND it looks more like she's addressing the language of Swedish law Matariki Apr 2013 #96
" It may well be that the serious allegations of sexual assault and rape are not substantiated struggle4progress Apr 2013 #98
"a Swedish court approved a request to detain Mr Assange for questioning relating to one count struggle4progress Apr 2013 #91
"... The position with offence 4 is different. This is an allegation of rape. The framework list struggle4progress Apr 2013 #93
"The other woman wanted to report rape. I gave my testimony to support her story" struggle4progress Apr 2013 #94
Struggle4progress you always seem to swoop down on any post about Assange Matariki Apr 2013 #95
I've provided links for my assertions struggle4progress Apr 2013 #97
Seriously, if you're not being PAID to make anti-Assange posts in such bulk Matariki Apr 2013 #99
Which of the links I've provided do you find questionable? struggle4progress Apr 2013 #100
I'd rather understand your obsession. Why do you post so much negative stuff about Assange? Matariki Apr 2013 #102
I simply disproved your claim: "neither of the women accused Assange of rape" struggle4progress Apr 2013 #103
I wouldn't call a 3 year old link "proof" - and I'm STILL interested in your anti-Assange obsession Matariki Apr 2013 #107
This message was self-deleted by its author Matariki Apr 2013 #101
Few are as accurate as struggle4progress, either. randome Apr 2013 #105
As I understand it, he already submitted biological samples JDPriestly Apr 2013 #30
I didn't know he submitted to tests... ReRe Apr 2013 #32
I can't guarantee that I am right about that, but if he did not actually JDPriestly Apr 2013 #43
The presence of semen would prove that there was unprotected sex, JDPriestly Apr 2013 #45
That would make for a quick resolution, unless it really *is* about a sex crime. freshwest Apr 2013 #13
Well, if nothing else it would expose his dissembling, if that's what it is. bemildred Apr 2013 #14
Lindskog, in his speech, suggests forward extradition is highly unlikely struggle4progress Apr 2013 #56
Yeah, I read that. nt bemildred Apr 2013 #58
You can watch the speech if interested: I posted a link downthread struggle4progress Apr 2013 #60
I'm not interested. bemildred Apr 2013 #62
Lindskog's speech is actually directed towards law and policy wonks: struggle4progress Apr 2013 #66
Exactly, that's the stuff I'm not interested in. bemildred Apr 2013 #67
To be clear: if they ever get him back to Sweden, such issues might be relevant. bemildred Apr 2013 #69
"his past experience" means what, exactly? struggle4progress Apr 2013 #70
Don't play stupid with me, or I'll go back to ignoring you. bemildred Apr 2013 #74
I suppose he IS unhappy: UK courts have ordered his extradition based on a rape complaint struggle4progress Apr 2013 #75
Yeah, I expect he is not happy with the UK justice system either. bemildred Apr 2013 #77
Authorities usually don't negotiate conditions for extradition with persons who have been ordered struggle4progress Apr 2013 #80
Yeah, I know that. They already extradited him to Sweden, that's why he is in the embassy. bemildred Apr 2013 #82
The so-called centrists among us will not be happy. They support the suppression by the 1%. nm rhett o rick Apr 2013 #7
well, they support their guy...once hes gone they'll be pretending to be outraged by injustice xiamiam Apr 2013 #15
So true whatchamacallit Apr 2013 #22
Lindskog, in his talk, in no way suggested there was any plot to destroy Assange struggle4progress Apr 2013 #68
False treestar Apr 2013 #24
Of course they dont see the "suppression". They see it as security. The 1% protecting us from the rhett o rick Apr 2013 #25
Well, yes you do treestar Apr 2013 #39
I make it much more simple. Until Cheney goes to trial for the murder of thousands of children, rhett o rick Apr 2013 #40
My view on this precisely. JDPriestly Apr 2013 #44
I don't have any animosity towards anyone treestar Apr 2013 #51
Of course we should not suspend the enforcement of criminal law, however, rhett o rick Apr 2013 #52
So what is holding the Swedish prosecutor up from filing charges? It's been nearly sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #92
All criminal process in Sweden should cease until Cheney is behind bars? struggle4progress Apr 2013 #59
That's a silly suggestion. nm rhett o rick Apr 2013 #63
I agree. Cheney's crimes have no connection whatsoever to the Swedish sexual complaints struggle4progress Apr 2013 #65
Cheney is protected by the 1% and Assange is persecuted by the 1%. rhett o rick Apr 2013 #71
I thought we had agreed Cheney had nothing whatsoever to do with the Swedish complaint struggle4progress Apr 2013 #76
I have given my stance here, what's yours? nm rhett o rick Apr 2013 #84
"Get the facts right first. Then do the analysis. And don't jumble things together" struggle4progress Apr 2013 #86
K&R JDPriestly Apr 2013 #17
So the actual "I think it is a mess" quote seems to apply to the US extradition situation muriel_volestrangler Apr 2013 #21
K&R "It should never be a crime to make known crime of a state." woo me with science Apr 2013 #33
I'm sure Sweden has no problem with releasing all their military and diplomatic documents, then. randome Apr 2013 #35
Dont beat around the bush. Say what you mean. Do you want Julian to be rhett o rick Apr 2013 #41
I want him to face whatever charges or inquiries await him in Sweden. randome Apr 2013 #49
I think there is a good chance that the USofA would love to rhett o rick Apr 2013 #50
Assange doesn't fall under the UCMJ struggle4progress Apr 2013 #57
And so?????? rhett o rick Apr 2013 #61
Credibility depends on getting the facts right: struggle4progress Apr 2013 #64
I am not disputing that. The UCMJ isnt the only tool of the government. Especially with the NDAA as rhett o rick Apr 2013 #72
You suggested a parallelism between Assange and Manning. Now you mention NDAA, but Manning's struggle4progress Apr 2013 #81
Sorry, I can see you are struggling with this. I believe our government rhett o rick Apr 2013 #83
Manning isn't being persecuted, as far as I can tell. He had access to restricted information, struggle4progress Apr 2013 #87
I try to keep things in prospective. Currently the criminals of the 1% dont get prosecuted rhett o rick Apr 2013 #109
If you actually listen to Lindskog's speech, you will notice that struggle4progress Apr 2013 #85
If the USA wants Assange, why don't they extradite him from the UK? Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #34
And extradition from the UK would be legally less complex: if, after the UK extradites struggle4progress Apr 2013 #46
This ^^^^^^ treestar Apr 2013 #53
Assange is a conspiracy theorist with a persecution complex. Comrade_McKenzie Apr 2013 #42
University of Adelaide Live Stream: The Assange Affair struggle4progress Apr 2013 #47
kick woo me with science Apr 2013 #48
K & R !!! WillyT Apr 2013 #73
I wasn't aware that criminal cases were litigated through symposium speeches brooklynite Apr 2013 #78
Lindskog merely discussed some issues related the case, making no effort to resolve them struggle4progress Apr 2013 #106
This message was self-deleted by its author Matariki Apr 2013 #89
"It should never be a crime to make known crime of a state," G_j Apr 2013 #104
+100000000 woo me with science Apr 2013 #108
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Swedish Judges Says Assan...»Reply #87