General Discussion

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)

160. Looking at religion like culture is not a good thing...

Fri Apr 5, 2013, 12:25 AM

Apr 2013

because it gives power to religion on false grounds. Identifying with a belief system with harmful beliefs because you like the tradition and rituals is bad because it means you are supporting a belief system with bad beliefs, which is obviously bad in and of itself, but also it's bad because you're doing it even though you yourself don't believe it.

Cognitive dissonance and intellectual dishonesty are never good things to engage in, and viewing religion as culture requires both.

Is it good they don't believe their misogynist belief system? Yes (though note that quite a few will not actually say this out loud, or even admit it to themselves, which is bad). Is it good they are still willing to identify and in many indirect ways support that belief system? No.

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I do not need... Eurocentric feminists to dictate to me what I wear or shouldn't wear. [View all] Luminous Animal Apr 2013 OP

Interesting. ZombieHorde Apr 2013 #1

My hijab, my choice & my right Fuck FEMEN Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #2

I don't know why, but.... Cali_Democrat Apr 2013 #4

+infinity. You win this thread. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #150

+1 nt Zorra Apr 2013 #156

You don't know why? Then why say it? Scootaloo Apr 2013 #164

LOL. I dont even think you buy what you just wrote. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #168

I wouldn't have typed it otherwise. Scootaloo Apr 2013 #176

You think I regard her as inferior? Cali_Democrat Apr 2013 #172

I think that person couldnt come up with a factual argument, so they made up ad hominem stuff about stevenleser Apr 2013 #178

I'm still shaking my head over here Cali_Democrat Apr 2013 #187

You said rack. TeeYiYi Apr 2013 #380

So this woman is under the rule of a misogynistic warlord in Afghanistan? Scootaloo Apr 2013 #183

+1. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #180

The poster implied that I want to see her breasts Cali_Democrat Apr 2013 #182

I didn't read it that way. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #186

I did actually... Scootaloo Apr 2013 #339

i meant i didn't read either ofyour posts that way. i didn't read yours as being directed to cd's HiPointDem Apr 2013 #361

What a load of tripe. EOTE Apr 2013 #268

Really? Read the message again. Scootaloo Apr 2013 #309

Blatant lie? Like you claiming I said the anti-FEMEN group is telling anyone how to dress? EOTE Apr 2013 #317

No, Femen just derides Muslim women who choose to wear a hijab Scootaloo Apr 2013 #324

You're totally right. All muslim cultures are totally friendly of women. EOTE Apr 2013 #326

I think you're right Scootaloo Apr 2013 #329

You suggested all of those things. EOTE Apr 2013 #330

You're doing it again. Scootaloo Apr 2013 #336

And that sums up everything right there: The Straight Story Apr 2013 #346

Excellent subthread Scootaloo! Really hardcore. Brava! Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #369

Exactly EOTE .That person and their supporters dont care if Tunisia goes to Sharia stevenleser Apr 2013 #412

That pretty much sums it up. EOTE Apr 2013 #448

+1 Paul E Ester Apr 2013 #283

You got it. nt msanthrope Apr 2013 #427

FEMEN isn't forcing you to do anything. Deep13 Apr 2013 #381

Is FEMEN pressuring them to go topless? randome Apr 2013 #3

FEMEN believes that the hijab=opressions. They march in Muslim neighborhoods Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #10

The choice to wear hijab is one thing. Flogged or stoned to death for showing breasts is another Matariki Apr 2013 #13

are Muslim Women in France, UK , Spain flogged or stoned to death for showing breasts ? JI7 Apr 2013 #18

And western feminists marching through their neighborhoods naked is addressing Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #19

'Exhorting' them is not the same as 'pressuring' them. randome Apr 2013 #32

So you think FEMEN is protesting for the right to choose to go topless? Squinch Apr 2013 #40

I don't see them 'demanding' women go topless. randome Apr 2013 #46

So their goal is to spread the message that they don't need to be controlled by men? Squinch Apr 2013 #55

That's my take on it. randome Apr 2013 #57

I am curious about what others think FEMEN's message is, and what their goal is. Squinch Apr 2013 #59

When it comes to women's rights, the same confusion exists... randome Apr 2013 #70

Or it could be that their message simply isn't clear. Squinch Apr 2013 #71

They have more than one message LadyHawkAZ Apr 2013 #140

freedom for women for what ? there are "pro women" groups in the US and their focus JI7 Apr 2013 #144

There are "pro-woman" groups that claim all kinds of things. LadyHawkAZ Apr 2013 #153

Freedom to choose "what", ie, freedom of total self determination. nt Zorra Apr 2013 #154

even whatever gun you want ? JI7 Apr 2013 #155

Is freedom of total self determination possible? Does anyone on earth have that? Squinch Apr 2013 #352

it's his best guess and he's sticking with it! bettyellen Apr 2013 #78

Am I crazy in thinking this is precisely their goal in this? To evince this kind of response? Squinch Apr 2013 #82

well, the article said they are aware they get faux interest and think it;'s still worthwhile. bettyellen Apr 2013 #89

Yes. The dynamics of this are fascinating, but the fuzzy scapegoating Squinch Apr 2013 #95

This might help you work it out.... Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #165

Because this... Matariki Apr 2013 #35

what they do is like protesting at a Christian CHurch in the UK , fRance etc JI7 Apr 2013 #42

Is that what you said when people did local protests against Apartheid? Matariki Apr 2013 #53

they are protesting against Muslims in the West , they are calling on those muslim women JI7 Apr 2013 #62

those were focused protests with calls for specific policy changes.... bettyellen Apr 2013 #84

In the end, they don't need ANY message that you or I approve of. randome Apr 2013 #87

so, protesters don't need to educate or empower anyone for change these days? Interesting dodge. bettyellen Apr 2013 #91

I would say the reaction to being topless IS the message, in this case. randome Apr 2013 #102

I have to say though, that if a protest is serious, Squinch Apr 2013 #105

Being vaunted simply for being topless is equally its own message. Squinch Apr 2013 #98

The interpretation of the message is always up to the observer. randome Apr 2013 #103

I do observe, however, that the women in the African protests left absolutely no doubt Squinch Apr 2013 #114

Whether this particular group of women are conducting their protest 'correctly'... randome Apr 2013 #130

Oh, but then we're right back to the idea that it's about giving women the choice to go topless. Squinch Apr 2013 #132

so, it;s more of an art piece then, than a protest, because actvists have actionable goals and no bettyellen Apr 2013 #117

Why do you feel the need to parse every possible interpretation? randome Apr 2013 #119

But that's exactly the point. The lack of clear message makes us have to conclude: In the end, who Squinch Apr 2013 #129

Huh? If someone has a protest and no one knows or cares why- it;s a good thing? bettyellen Apr 2013 #146

that's art, not politics. and vapid performance art is exactly what most of femen reminds me of. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #188

You mean something like Banksy? Solders Painting Peace, One Nation under CCTV, etc.? idwiyo Apr 2013 #410

yes, i mean people like the fraud 'banksy'. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #447

What you said cliffordu Apr 2013 #332

Well, Femen disagrees with you. They say that their boobs are billboards Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #374

No, that is a logic fail. It is both. Boobs are their billboards and part of the message. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #414

who exactly issued this 'fatwa' and under what authority? HiPointDem Apr 2013 #185

Adel Almi. A Salafist of course riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #320

under what authority? and where does that say 'fatwa' as opposed to his opinion? HiPointDem Apr 2013 #321

Islam has no central authority. As we saw with the fatwa against Salman Rushdie riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #333

islam has lots of 'central authorities'. rushdie's fatwa was issued by the religious and civil head HiPointDem Apr 2013 #362

Yeah, fine. So Amina should just head out to the local Tunisia Starbucks riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #366

Actually, Tunisia is not quickly lurching toward any such thing. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #376

Only YESTERDAY the Tunisia Assembly's tie was broken by Ettouir's vote riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #382

No, Tunisia is not on the precipice of becoming an Sharia state and nothihng in your link Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #384

it's not 'nothing' and i didn't say it was. it's not a 'fatwa' though, if by 'fatwa' you mean an HiPointDem Apr 2013 #386

That the Arab Spring revolutions have turned into an Arab Chill via Islamist riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #415

Are you saying that all muslim women who live in muslim neighbourhoods want idwiyo Apr 2013 #217

And some FEMEN members are Muslims themselves. Don't they have the right to their views? pnwmom Apr 2013 #313

they explicitly target Islam and modesty as political foes BainsBane Apr 2013 #27

They say "down with Islam", really? Matariki Apr 2013 #54

They held signs BainsBane Apr 2013 #58

that's a 'page not found' link Matariki Apr 2013 #60

wrong link BainsBane Apr 2013 #63

Thanks for the link Matariki Apr 2013 #74

I noticed that BainsBane Apr 2013 #106

I agree with that Matariki Apr 2013 #210

Yes, and I Very much want her to be safe BainsBane Apr 2013 #212

Here is an image BainsBane Apr 2013 #205

I'd contend saying the words of any prophet are above criticism is an assault on common sense. Kurska Apr 2013 #211

They don't know enough about Islam to attack the words of the prophet BainsBane Apr 2013 #218

How bout these words of the prophet Kurska Apr 2013 #220

Should we pull out some bible quotes too? BainsBane Apr 2013 #223

I'm rather offended that you seem to associate being Christian with being American. Kurska Apr 2013 #225

I don't associate Christian with being American BainsBane Apr 2013 #232

I'm not endorsing any of these positions, but just trying to understand your logic here. Kurska Apr 2013 #238

Okay BainsBane Apr 2013 #242

Well, you didn't address what I said at all. Kurska Apr 2013 #265

You asked what my point was BainsBane Apr 2013 #278

I understand you fine, I however think you are holding two incredibly double standards here. Kurska Apr 2013 #338

At your request BainsBane Apr 2013 #358

I'm disagreeing with your basic premise from the first line. Kurska Apr 2013 #375

the Muslim world isn't America BainsBane Apr 2013 #392

Well first off, any society that wouldn't freely let someone change their religion is pretty wrong. Kurska Apr 2013 #393

How about societies that don't let people change their race and ethnicity? BainsBane Apr 2013 #402

Being able to change religions is the result of a breakdown of community and family? Are you real? Kurska Apr 2013 #425

I hate calling a way of thinking "anti-American", but I'd say that clearly applies in this case ButterflyBlood Apr 2013 #435

Last statement is objectively false. Look at this map ButterflyBlood Apr 2013 #388

tell me, with your x ray eyes BainsBane Apr 2013 #395

You don't need "x ray eyes", the precincts voting yes are pretty obvious. ButterflyBlood Apr 2013 #417

You think Halal markets are in 5 precincts in this town? BainsBane Apr 2013 #419

Its "halal". Pretty big blunder if you really do see them everywhere nt riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #421

Posting via iPad BainsBane Apr 2013 #422

I live about three blocks south of a halal market, and I'm in a white mostly hipster neighborhood ButterflyBlood Apr 2013 #433

I was simply recounting my experience canvassing BainsBane Apr 2013 #437

I'm going to trust the actual results over anecdotal evidence ButterflyBlood Apr 2013 #439

Whittier has changed a lot since I lived there BainsBane Apr 2013 #440

Yes I know, it's a gradual shift of people from Uptown because the rent is cheaper ButterflyBlood Apr 2013 #441

I specified St. Paul BainsBane Apr 2013 #443

One of my best friends is from St. Paul and has a very Irish name ButterflyBlood Apr 2013 #444

from the map you provided earlier BainsBane Apr 2013 #445

The whole city voted against, but what does that prove? St. Paul is not all Catholic ButterflyBlood Apr 2013 #446

It doesn't even include the Arab/ Somali neighborhoods BainsBane Apr 2013 #420

None of those areas are majority Muslim ButterflyBlood Apr 2013 #434

So what is your general conclusion from that? BainsBane Apr 2013 #436

The precincts are all clustered in the same area ButterflyBlood Apr 2013 #438

yeah, if only they have read the Quoan, they would have known that accoring to Hadith idwiyo Apr 2013 #246

Wait what? Marrah_G Apr 2013 #271

Yeah, see, I don't think Femen's feminist detractors really stop to listen to themselves. stevenleser Apr 2013 #273

Criticizing their holy book BainsBane Apr 2013 #281

actually what I find funny is your view on this Marrah_G Apr 2013 #286

Absurd that human beings deserve respect BainsBane Apr 2013 #359

You (generic) have a right to beleive, but there is no right to demand respect for your belief. idwiyo Apr 2013 #411

Don't start talking shit on Dianetics! JVS Apr 2013 #423

You mean I should respect it and stuff? :) Of course I have greatest respect for anyone idwiyo Apr 2013 #424

first reference I saw BainsBane Apr 2013 #68

You were told this blogger is transphobic bigot but you just repost the link anyway? idwiyo Apr 2013 #249

yes, because my singular goal in life BainsBane Apr 2013 #331

Do you think the Koran is friendly to women? You never responded to this video.. snooper2 Apr 2013 #99

brilliant video, thank you for posting it. idwiyo Apr 2013 #251

Christina Rad rocks. There is no response to this. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #258

Some do, but not all. n/t pnwmom Apr 2013 #315

Yes they do. They also target various Christian denominations. stevenleser Apr 2013 #100

But the idea of destroying religion is absud BainsBane Apr 2013 #110

I think Femen would be just as happy with a world where religions dont contribute to the harming stevenleser Apr 2013 #116

Then your interpretation is that FEMEN wants world religions to eradicate their bias toward women? Squinch Apr 2013 #118

Either that or they want them to go away altogether, yes. That would be one of Femen's goals. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #120

So possibly the elimination of religion? Squinch Apr 2013 #124

Yes. One or the other. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #128

but you failed to see this same dynamic RainDog Apr 2013 #169

no, I didnt. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #171

What new ideas? BainsBane Apr 2013 #204

FEMEN comes from a region with a tradition of strident anti-clericalism JVS Apr 2013 #248

As a result of my frequent appearance on RT, I have a lot of media friends stevenleser Apr 2013 #272

In what sense is ukraine a region with a 'tradition of strident anti-clericism'? HiPointDem Apr 2013 #399

Former Soviet block BainsBane Apr 2013 #403

more or less banning religious display from above isn't grassroots anti-clericism. it's an HiPointDem Apr 2013 #404

It's a long standing cultural understanding of BainsBane Apr 2013 #405

Have you been elected a spokesperson for Muslims everywhere? idwiyo Apr 2013 #408

Where? Everywhere? It's all identical in the entirety of BainsBane Apr 2013 #243

Good for them - respect for Islam (as opposed to for Muslims) is a bad thing. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2013 #239

Agreed. I support these women LittleBlue Apr 2013 #277

Hmmm. It's awful quiet in here. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #5

Not sure what to make of "my modesty is my liberation" whatchamacallit Apr 2013 #15

Ready to edit yet? DisgustipatedinCA Apr 2013 #293

Who is dictating? LadyHawkAZ Apr 2013 #6

If I may... Shankapotomus Apr 2013 #7

How do you know that all the women in the pics don't have that option? Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #12

Is there a muslim ruled country that grants women that option? Shankapotomus Apr 2013 #75

Do you too, then, think that FEMEN is protesting for the right to choose to go topless? Squinch Apr 2013 #43

No, not at all. Shankapotomus Apr 2013 #66

Then you are thinking that FEMEN is trying to break down the outmoded cultural foundation Squinch Apr 2013 #67

Yes, it makes sense to conclude that Shankapotomus Apr 2013 #77

Shankapotomus... Bonobo Apr 2013 #83

Thanks, Bonobo. Shankapotomus Apr 2013 #93

Good luck. It will not be easy for you to do so. Bonobo Apr 2013 #101

Are you opposed to the FEMEN group? DisgustipatedinCA Apr 2013 #8

Stockholm Syndrome: Zorra Apr 2013 #9

You cannot be serious? BainsBane Apr 2013 #23

Damn skippy, I'm as serious as a heart attack. Zorra Apr 2013 #108

Well, you know very little BainsBane Apr 2013 #208

Oh, bullshit. Don't you dare try to conflate me with neocons and military actions, Zorra Apr 2013 #250

My point is this entire debate is framed by Islamophobia BainsBane Apr 2013 #335

THANK YOU for saying this. Raine1967 Apr 2013 #270

I'm inclined to agree with that assessment. stevenleser Apr 2013 #123

You got the point. Thank you. nt Zorra Apr 2013 #147

Stockholm syndrome is right! backscatter712 Apr 2013 #196

Yep, if this was a "pro-life" post with similar messages... joshcryer Apr 2013 #202

The irony is, if it were these women being discussed LadyHawkAZ Apr 2013 #209

This is a small group BainsBane Apr 2013 #226

If there were 2 billion FLDS LadyHawkAZ Apr 2013 #235

There aren't. The equivalent would be a condemnation of all of Western BainsBane Apr 2013 #240

On the subject of Tunisia and abortion: muriel_volestrangler Apr 2013 #256

Sounds like the United States. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #372

Which is why protests about it are justified (nt) muriel_volestrangler Apr 2013 #394

Sounds a lot like the US doesn't it? BainsBane Apr 2013 #391

I know there aren't LadyHawkAZ Apr 2013 #373

a few reasons BainsBane Apr 2013 #398

I agree that we have problems here that need solving LadyHawkAZ Apr 2013 #426

the problem is BainsBane Apr 2013 #429

I didn't say they all occurred everywhere LadyHawkAZ Apr 2013 #430

How did you garner that from Amina's protest? BainsBane Apr 2013 #431

as just one example BainsBane Apr 2013 #432

a better comparison would be to say they represent all American women or all those who have JI7 Apr 2013 #252

there were actually a few supporters here- when they raided the compound in TX bettyellen Apr 2013 #280

"I was hit with a belt and I turned out OK" -- Sean Hannity, defending Rutgers BB coach Mike Rice. Manifestor_of_Light Apr 2013 #289

No one is telling them to go topless. kiva Apr 2013 #11

that's because they go to Muslim areas in Brit and other western places and call on JI7 Apr 2013 #16

And they can still wear what they want. kiva Apr 2013 #29

Uh, Femen complains about what Muslim Women in the West Wear JI7 Apr 2013 #34

They absolutly do. kiva Apr 2013 #112

You mean inviting others to join them equals to forcing them to go naked? Also, can you provide some idwiyo Apr 2013 #224

Protest and a counter-protest. tammywammy Apr 2013 #14

except the Muslim women aren't demanding other women cover themselves up JI7 Apr 2013 #17

No, they're just helping prop up a culture that does that. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #125

how ? ifyou look at the pics some women wear no head covering JI7 Apr 2013 #139

And their message is "We love the forced female dress-code of male interpreters of our religion... stevenleser Apr 2013 #143

none of the women in the OP are fully covered, some have no covering JI7 Apr 2013 #145

You keep arguing against something I never said. stevenleser Apr 2013 #148

you said they prop up a culture that demands women cover up JI7 Apr 2013 #151

Most of them are wearing headscarves. I never said they were required to wear burkas. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #152

but so what ? do you think a woman who wears a headscarf is being oppressed and does so because JI7 Apr 2013 #158

Yes, ultimately, that is what it is. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #167

Many Muslim women who live in the west continue to wear the hijab Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #162

I know. I've read about them. I still regard it as Zorra suggested. Something akin to Stockholm stevenleser Apr 2013 #166

And that is the ignorance. What makes you think they accept the loss of freedom? Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #173

What makes you think they dont accept their loss of freedom? stevenleser Apr 2013 #175

Because I spent 10 hours reading and communicating with many Muslim women today... Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #181

I've spent a lot more than 10 hours. I've actually spent long visits to Muslim countries. stevenleser Apr 2013 #184

these women are mostly from europe JI7 Apr 2013 #189

And yet you seem to know nothing about Muslim feminists or the strategies and Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #195

Oh I've read all about them. They remind me of GOProud and Log Cabin Republicans. stevenleser Apr 2013 #198

FEMEN demands other women go naked? Where did you get that one from? idwiyo Apr 2013 #222

So now it is Femen oppressing women The Straight Story Apr 2013 #20

You really don't help ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #22

Apparently, Muslim women are too brainwashed to articulate their own needs Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #26

I guess not only 'first world' Women ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #33

Funny about that... LadyHawkAZ Apr 2013 #76

Islam is not a society. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #86

"Culture" suit you better? LadyHawkAZ Apr 2013 #88

Funny how she goes all "word-police" on you.. opiate69 Apr 2013 #126

Compliance is protest! LadyHawkAZ Apr 2013 #134

White women have something called 'privilege' ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #90

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Apr 2013 #214

Hell no WD ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #259

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Apr 2013 #215

Heh. ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #262

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Apr 2013 #269

Perfect. polly7 Apr 2013 #294

Holy sh*t LittleBlue Apr 2013 #325

Some of them are brainwashed. backscatter712 Apr 2013 #274

Well now, that is the heart of all this isn't it The Straight Story Apr 2013 #28

Islam is a Abrahamic religion ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #61

Well, allow me to explain :) The Straight Story Apr 2013 #85

Well I'm not calling you a sexist pig ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #97

What it boils down to: The Straight Story Apr 2013 #121

does somebody miss meta? Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #254

I wasn't a Meta groupie ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #260

Ok, I agree with that ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #261

No, tech support The Straight Story Apr 2013 #263

considering the shit you post , you have problems with this ? JI7 Apr 2013 #24

I don't have a problem with any of it either way The Straight Story Apr 2013 #31

at least address the issue, i notice you ignored your own thread on African Women JI7 Apr 2013 #36

I knew well what it said The Straight Story Apr 2013 #56

Yes, they did say Femen is oppressing women. Bonobo Apr 2013 #44

"patriachal states OR eurocentrist feminists" JI7 Apr 2013 #50

When I went to The One Billion Rising protest ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #21

Somali women here in MN are also politically engaged. BainsBane Apr 2013 #25

Ya, but the problem is that in many muslim countries Cali_Democrat Apr 2013 #39

what has that got to do with Muslims in the West, as the OP shows many of them are not covered up JI7 Apr 2013 #47

Ya, but other muslim countries require women to be veiled Cali_Democrat Apr 2013 #69

but this protest was based on what they said is happening in Tunisia JI7 Apr 2013 #73

I'm not really focused on the Tunisia thing or even Femen Cali_Democrat Apr 2013 #80

Well, for the record, the debate in Tunisia is whether to go to Sharia law. That's what got Amina stevenleser Apr 2013 #200

This is true. ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #48

I understand BainsBane Apr 2013 #51

I didn't say all Muslim countries require women to veil Cali_Democrat Apr 2013 #72

You make it sound as if all Muslim women here in MN CHOOSE to wear a hijab nadine_mn Apr 2013 #253

No, I do not make it sound like all women choose to wear a hijab BainsBane Apr 2013 #279

Sigh... you always miss the point nadine_mn Apr 2013 #285

I agree with that general point BainsBane Apr 2013 #288

Oh sweet mother - does it hurt to deliberately twist things? nadine_mn Apr 2013 #290

that was the post you chose to respond to BainsBane Apr 2013 #389

Again you continue to only read what you want to nadine_mn Apr 2013 #406

It's a losing battle to try to dictate to women what they must wear Warpy Apr 2013 #30

France actually Does Ban full covering , so there is some dictating in that way which i have no JI7 Apr 2013 #37

No FeMEn are independent ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #45

No kidding, and that's white, upper middle class feminists Warpy Apr 2013 #49

OT ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #64

Ha! I haven't read it either Warpy Apr 2013 #96

Oh that sucks. ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #104

Even when criticizing other women, they use the term "patriarch". Bonobo Apr 2013 #38

Good for them. I love this. n/t MadrasT Apr 2013 #41

They need a better strawman and some logic... MellowDem Apr 2013 #52

Yes seriously. I have a Catholic heritage... many generations. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #79

If you are a Muslim woman... MellowDem Apr 2013 #92

These women are recognizable and public ismnotwasm Apr 2013 #81

Muslim women are by their own beliefs... MellowDem Apr 2013 #94

There are many feminist Muslim women and organizations. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #109

Yes... MellowDem Apr 2013 #113

Well said. nt Zorra Apr 2013 #163

You don't know a thing about Muslim women SpartanDem Apr 2013 #142

Then they're intellectually dishonest... MellowDem Apr 2013 #149

for many people religion is more like culture, they don't believe everything literally JI7 Apr 2013 #159

Looking at religion like culture is not a good thing... MellowDem Apr 2013 #160

i'm Atheist and celebrate christmas by getting a tree and gifts for others JI7 Apr 2013 #161

Xmas trees are the best thing ever! I could not throw that baby out with the bath water either. bettyellen Apr 2013 #170

Not sure where you got that from my post... MellowDem Apr 2013 #267

the Femen Protests kind of Remind me of the Anti Mosque Protests in the United States JI7 Apr 2013 #65

Forgive me I'm a guy and I try to support feminists as much as possible Arcanetrance Apr 2013 #107

Maybe you're overthinking. randome Apr 2013 #111

This message was self-deleted by its author Arcanetrance Apr 2013 #115

I commend you for that! randome Apr 2013 #122

They readily admit that they go topless to get the attention of the media. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #136

. Squinch Apr 2013 #138

Which is generally part of the purpose of any protest. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #179

But they'll let the men in their lives to dictate what they wear? Apophis Apr 2013 #127

Exactly. WTF indeed. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #131

So it would seem. Which is their choice, in a way. randome Apr 2013 #133

which one is letting the man in her life dictate what she wears ? JI7 Apr 2013 #137

Um, they're Islamic women. Apophis Apr 2013 #192

not all Muslims are the same, i know many muslim women who dress how they want JI7 Apr 2013 #194

Good to see that ... 99Forever Apr 2013 #135

Last pic says it all IMO lunasun Apr 2013 #141

Awesome. Time for reflection or spontaneous combustion? Let me guess... Buzz Clik Apr 2013 #157

Well, Amina, Femen, and topless protests have all proven to be successful. Zorra Apr 2013 #174

Its simple isnt it? Yet we have folks in this thread arguing the message is confused. It isnt. stevenleser Apr 2013 #177

Yes. The message is simple, and crystal clear. Zorra Apr 2013 #213

exactly RainDog Apr 2013 #197

Spot on. I admit that this thread has me very conflicted Number23 Apr 2013 #219

+1 Bravo! idwiyo Apr 2013 #230

Do you think the people supporting FEMEN did not understand before the protests that women in Squinch Apr 2013 #354

WHEEE! WOMEN FOR SELF-OPPRESSION!!! backscatter712 Apr 2013 #190

Meh. So much drama over breasts. Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #191

topless or hijab ? many women don't do either JI7 Apr 2013 #199

That's where I'm at, too. Warren DeMontague Apr 2013 #207

Excellent! Le Taz Hot Apr 2013 #193

This Thread shows why so many Americans easily supported the War in Iraq JI7 Apr 2013 #201

Your spin just doesn't resonate RainDog Apr 2013 #203

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Apr 2013 #216

no, because people are fucking stupid and thought Saddam had something to do with islamic JI7 Apr 2013 #231

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Apr 2013 #247

Americans supported Iraq war because they wanted to look at boobies and Iraq didnt allow nekkidnees? idwiyo Apr 2013 #233

no, because people were fucking stupid and thought Saddam had something to do with Islamic JI7 Apr 2013 #234

It was a joke, relax. Though still not sure why you are so bothered by FEMEN and their boobies. idwiyo Apr 2013 #237

I find what Islam does to women and gays in the middle east far more offensive than anything Kurska Apr 2013 #206

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Apr 2013 #221

Righteous indignation at the bare human body makes for strange bedfellows doesn't it? n/t Kurska Apr 2013 #227

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Apr 2013 #229

"Islam" doesn't. Deep13 Apr 2013 #236

Yes it does. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2013 #241

Yes and no. Deep13 Apr 2013 #284

Yeah, no shit. But let's pretend none of that is happening. Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #345

It is a criminal offense for a Saudi woman to show her face in public... Deep13 Apr 2013 #228

and yet, the brave women of femen have yet to take on the saudis. they prefer less dangerous HiPointDem Apr 2013 #245

They're not willing to be martyrs. Deep13 Apr 2013 #287

but wait, i thought they were at risk of being arrested. imprisoned & stoned? so i'm constantly HiPointDem Apr 2013 #295

Depends where they are. Deep13 Apr 2013 #297

have you seen any interviews with the leader? she's a ninny. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #298

ad hominem? Deep13 Apr 2013 #299

no, she's just a ninny. or plays one on tv. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #310

Also there is a class distinction at work here. Deep13 Apr 2013 #302

FEMEN will have a slam dunk in this exchange when the next honor killing in Europe happens. JVS Apr 2013 #244

How so? Squinch Apr 2013 #356

Good for them, and good for Femen. HappyMe Apr 2013 #255

You Miss the Whole Point itcfish Apr 2013 #257

It's even more than that. This all started because Tunisia is considering going back to Sharia... stevenleser Apr 2013 #275

I have question for the women in the pictures Shankapotomus Apr 2013 #264

Sure, and there are women who stand outside abortion clinics with signs that read.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Apr 2013 #266

It's "my choice" to wear oppressive clothing because I've been told Arugula Latte Apr 2013 #276

Some of the women in these photos . . . Brigid Apr 2013 #282

Totally bookmarking this awesome thread. Prism Apr 2013 #291

The full implications of the hypocrisy you point out are mind-boggling stevenleser Apr 2013 #300

I think it's a simple equation. Prism Apr 2013 #305

I think you boiled it down to the essentials. randome Apr 2013 #306

You just destroyed LittleBlue Apr 2013 #344

+ 100 Prism, you nailed it. Bonobo Apr 2013 #396

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Apr 2013 #407

Way to miss the point. These women don't want to be nannied by neocolonial feminists. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #301

How do you think these other groups got the word out? randome Apr 2013 #304

They are working in their own communities in their own cultural context. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #316

And they are failing. Sharia is a serious possibility for Tunisia. They can claim to be feminists stevenleser Apr 2013 #318

So only community protests are 'allowed', then. randome Apr 2013 #322

I never said that. I said that there are already Muslim femnists active in their communities... Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #327

Amina is a Muslim woman working in her own cultural context in her own country riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #340

Have I said anything about Amina in this thread? No I haven't. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #347

Wait, what??!! Of course they're reacting to yesterday's action! riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #368

Um no. They are using yesterdays action as a springboard for their own. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #371

NO! Most of the pics on that site are protesting FEMEN. Amina IS FEMEN. riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #377

You are making assumptions not in evidence. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #383

The women you've linked to in your OP absolutely don't support FEMEN riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #385

They don't want to talk about Amina or the deadly serious reason she did what she did. stevenleser Apr 2013 #349

And yet when it comes to catholics you state: The Straight Story Apr 2013 #308

You have this exactly backwards Prism Apr 2013 #319

Really. You do realize that the reason why they decided to go full frontal was to get the attention Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #323

And to that I say, so what? Prism Apr 2013 #337

They are also coming from a Western imperialist perspective BainsBane Apr 2013 #400

This thread is entirely revealing RainDog Apr 2013 #303

Ah Prism, if nobody's told you they loved you today, here you go Catherina Apr 2013 #334

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Apr 2013 #341

+1. I almost didn't post on this thread at all. Same people, same scolding nt riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #342

Exactly. n/t LadyHawkAZ Apr 2013 #365

Right on. redgreenandblue Apr 2013 #292

I don't see any group lecturing another. randome Apr 2013 #296

How extraordinarily patronizing and without realizing it, you are emphasizing these women's point. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #307

No one is saying they HAVE to embrace FEMEN. randome Apr 2013 #311

As I have pointed out before, Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #348

Damn, they are not buying "menz & titties"... YAY! FEMEN makes wemmenz unsafe with tiities!!! idwiyo Apr 2013 #409

It's always good to see women do good activism, whether I believe in the message or not. Nika Apr 2013 #312

What was the point of the Lynne Ali photo? alp227 Apr 2013 #353

Surrender RainDog Apr 2013 #363

I went to the Face book site and found it interesting. Nika Apr 2013 #370

I don't know if anyone is dictating what they should wear. Cleita Apr 2013 #314

Really, no one is dictating what women should wear? Because that is EXACTLY what many Islamists do. Quantess Apr 2013 #350

This is in the so-called free world isn't it? Cleita Apr 2013 #351

I get what you are saying, but, the intent is to reach worldwide audiences. Quantess Apr 2013 #355

In my day they did. They wouldn't let you into church if you weren't wearing a hat Cleita Apr 2013 #357

It's very simple - if you are a liberal, you support these women closeupready Apr 2013 #328

No, it isn't "very simple". Quantess Apr 2013 #343

Okay, I can agree that it's not a simple issue. closeupready Apr 2013 #387

Half right, half wrong. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2013 #416

Nope. You're so in love with your logical pretzel-ification, closeupready Apr 2013 #418

I think a lot of Western feminists don't even realize how condescending they are at times. TimberValley Apr 2013 #360

except Amina is Tunisian RainDog Apr 2013 #364

And predictably there is crickets to your response. They are intent on ignoring Amina. stevenleser Apr 2013 #413

Very eye opening thread. Rex Apr 2013 #442

+1,000,000 HappyMe Apr 2013 #449

Yep. Femen fan's response to Muslim women included these: Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #367

Many African-American feminists feel marginalized by white American feminists. kwassa Apr 2013 #379

They're not. Your home societies are. Deep13 Apr 2013 #378

I wonder which side these feminists would side with? opiate69 Apr 2013 #390

FOR THOSE STILL READING THIS... Bonobo Apr 2013 #397

You aren't paying attention BainsBane Apr 2013 #401

right here. Warren DeMontague Apr 2013 #428