General Discussion

quaker bill

(8,264 posts)

261. A very intellectual response

Fri Feb 3, 2012, 08:53 PM

Feb 2012

Get back with me when you have spent 25 years reading the original source material, and have clerked a Quaker meeting for 10. True, unprogrammed Friends represent a small fraction of those who term themselves Quaker. Most calling themselves Quaker are in Kenya and are rather fundamentalist in a way that would challenge Jerry Falwell to keep up. Calling them anything other than Christian would be quite the insult.

It is also true that Fox, Barclay, Pennington, Fell, Penn and a great many others among the "Valiant 60" spent a great deal of time on the Quaker Christian apology, in an attempt to have fewer of us jailed, beaten, and executed. Then there was James Nayler riding into London on a donkey....

One should not confuse this for something other than what it was.

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Are Mormons Christian? [View all] Renew Deal Jan 2012 OP

in the same way David Koresh was Christian. FarLeftFist Jan 2012 #1

Was Jesus Christian? Kablooie Jan 2012 #2

If you want to fluster a fundamentalist, ask them that very question. A HERETIC I AM Jan 2012 #6

This belongs in the religous forum. No Jesus wasn't a Christian, he was the son of God. So what lonestarnot Jan 2012 #12

LOL A HERETIC I AM Jan 2012 #17

To each his own and I say that one day your knees will bow, like it or not. So you have fun now. lonestarnot Jan 2012 #22

I love how Christians resort to threats of eternal damnation when their beliefs are challenged. white_wolf Jan 2012 #26

Did I say eternal damnation? No I did not. Now when you get back to politics and save the lonestarnot Jan 2012 #33

Post removed Post removed Feb 2012 #209

Looking for the LIKE button! RetroLounge Feb 2012 #230

I agree. nt TBF Feb 2012 #265

Me too, well worth the read! n/t MarkCharles Feb 2012 #267

Thank you. A HERETIC I AM Jan 2012 #34

not that it is that germaine to the main point of the point but 'heretic' grantcart Feb 2012 #224

Thanks, but trust me, I KNOW the definition of "Heretic" A HERETIC I AM Feb 2012 #231

And that is the most common understanding of the word grantcart Feb 2012 #234

I love how non-Christians seek out attention by posting comments like... joeglow3 Jan 2012 #35

I actually didn't post that. white_wolf Jan 2012 #42

I wrote that as a means to show a personal historical context. A HERETIC I AM Jan 2012 #58

I'm stealing your last quote if you don't mind, as a sig line. Brilliant. nt riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #68

You're welcome to it. I used it on the old DU for years. A HERETIC I AM Jan 2012 #73

Threats of eternal damnation are the most effective tool organized religion has undeterred Jan 2012 #37

I'm pretty sure that pointing that out is a sin Renew Deal Jan 2012 #43

All the fun people will be in hell. undeterred Jan 2012 #56

I didn't read that as damnation, White Wolf.... Ecumenist Jan 2012 #41

Perhaps I misread him then. It is very possible. white_wolf Jan 2012 #45

Oh God, you too? I went to a fundie Christian school in the 70's and saw these types for what Ecumenist Jan 2012 #57

The other poster is referencing a specific Scripture, in Romans 14. The full passage Bluenorthwest Feb 2012 #133

Of course it's a damnation. A HERETIC I AM Feb 2012 #215

I suppose it's all perception. I honestly don't think it was meant as a declaration Ecumenist Feb 2012 #216

Anyone that tells me "Someday your knees will bow" has a very specific idea in mind. A HERETIC I AM Feb 2012 #219

Sorry pal, but no, I won't. A HERETIC I AM Jan 2012 #49

Wow. You wasted a bunch of effort there. Did you have fun? Your opinion of my God is not valuable lonestarnot Jan 2012 #66

Yup. Same opinion. A HERETIC I AM Jan 2012 #71

Not me... Hepburn Jan 2012 #100

If your god actually existed, I'd tell him to fuck himself for demanding people "bow down". Zhade Feb 2012 #120

I kind of get this attitude but treestar Feb 2012 #148

I don't reject mythology because of others' interpretations, but because of the lack of evidence. Zhade Feb 2012 #170

You must really consider the circus Warren DeMontague Feb 2012 #126

holy shit waddirum Feb 2012 #169

Isn't that classic? Warren DeMontague Feb 2012 #172

this video has everything waddirum Feb 2012 #177

This message was self-deleted by its author waddirum Feb 2012 #176

Kneel Before Zod Warren DeMontague Feb 2012 #171

To whom? Mithras? MNBrewer Feb 2012 #173

"one day your knees will bow, like it or not." eShirl Feb 2012 #181

I Had a Friend In School with Bowed Legs we can do it Feb 2012 #187

"I say that one day your knees will bow" - KNEEL BEFORE ZOD! cleanhippie Feb 2012 #195

Pathetic and typical Marrah_G Feb 2012 #237

"Your knees will bow"? What the hell is that supposed to mean? Humanist_Activist Feb 2012 #268

KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!!!! Taverner Feb 2012 #281

I remember studying the subject around 20 years ago. mmonk Jan 2012 #27

"Biblical Scholars" all think "he" existed- big surprise, there. Most objective non-Bible historians Warren DeMontague Feb 2012 #128

Not true ("Biblical Scholars" all think "he" existed), some are athiests. eShirl Feb 2012 #201

I think you misunderstood. Actually, for all I know there may be Biblical Scholars who dispute the Warren DeMontague Feb 2012 #233

You chose your DU name well. Canuckistanian Jan 2012 #50

I learned long ago - like back in 2003 - that discretion was the better part of valor. A HERETIC I AM Jan 2012 #52

he could have been real. doesn't mean he's a diety. at any rate, he was the first documented hippie dionysus Jan 2012 #63

Unfortunately..... A HERETIC I AM Jan 2012 #70

i challenge you to prove he didn't invent the bong. dionysus Jan 2012 #75

He didn't invent it Warren DeMontague Feb 2012 #127

I'm more on your side than not, but the reason the gospels were written decades after Jesus lived deutsey Jan 2012 #105

Next you'll be trying to say that Osiris didn't exist. Or Mithras. Warren DeMontague Feb 2012 #129

One day your knees will bow to Mithras. Arugula Latte Feb 2012 #174

In those days, that wouldn't matter treestar Feb 2012 #149

Jesus existed - he is a person who lived treestar Feb 2012 #147

There is not one iota of actual evidence that he existed. PassingFair Feb 2012 #189

You say that with confidence, as if you had hard evidence to back that up. cleanhippie Feb 2012 #196

BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! Thanks for playing though. Goblinmonger Feb 2012 #197

I thought it was generally known and accepted treestar Feb 2012 #204

Well, you thought wrong Goblinmonger Feb 2012 #206

Again, why does it matter? treestar Feb 2012 #243

Oh, the old "Most critical historian" with no citation Goblinmonger Feb 2012 #251

It is generally accepted. Union Scribe Feb 2012 #222

Bollocks. A HERETIC I AM Feb 2012 #228

Uh huh. Union Scribe Feb 2012 #229

LOL. A HERETIC I AM Feb 2012 #232

Their threatening you doesn't mean Jesus didn't exist treestar Feb 2012 #244

Generally accepted by Christians perhaps. Goblinmonger Feb 2012 #239

The existence of any ancient figure treestar Feb 2012 #245

But we have independent sources Goblinmonger Feb 2012 #250

The physical evidence that Jesus existed CJCRANE Feb 2012 #271

One can decisively reject any notion of Jesus' divinity, but the historical coalition_unwilling Feb 2012 #270

Actually he was a Jew... Marrah_G Feb 2012 #235

Is Jesus Made of Matter? snooper2 Feb 2012 #242

he was the only one ever actually spotted SwampG8r Feb 2012 #113

your comment on the "savior god" myth is rapmanej Feb 2012 #130

Nope. mmonk Jan 2012 #9

Jesus was a Jew. N/t Hepburn Jan 2012 #99

don't know and don't care quinnox Jan 2012 #3

Mormons say they are Christians. provis99 Jan 2012 #4

A Christian is someone who follows the teachings of the Christ SaintPete Jan 2012 #38

But they say they got their teachings from Christ jberryhill Jan 2012 #74

Not "my" Christ, but I get your point SaintPete Jan 2012 #80

I meant the generic "you", not you specifically jberryhill Jan 2012 #81

So you have to believe in the trinity to be a Christian? Goblinmonger Feb 2012 #198

You're incorrect in many of your assumptions. Common Sense Party Feb 2012 #264

that's just the tired old "No True Scotsman" argument. provis99 Jan 2012 #77

Not really. it's just a basic syllogism SaintPete Jan 2012 #78

Mormons are just as much Christan as any other group that claims the title. white_wolf Jan 2012 #79

That makes as much sense as saying that everyone who claims to be a Democrat, IS a Democrat SaintPete Jan 2012 #84

That's a pretty good analogy Orangepeel Feb 2012 #115

Ah, then you'd need to demonstrate that self indentified Christians follow the teachings Bluenorthwest Feb 2012 #135

Haven't you ever argued a point from an objective POV? SaintPete Feb 2012 #150

Are you a Christian? Goblinmonger Feb 2012 #199

Nope SaintPete Feb 2012 #218

*only* follow the teachings of Jesus? Orangepeel Feb 2012 #114

OK, faulty premise. SaintPete Feb 2012 #132

Who made you the Decider? PassingFair Feb 2012 #190

By your logic SaintPete Feb 2012 #192

Blue Dogs AREN'T Democrats? PassingFair Feb 2012 #193

In name only SaintPete Feb 2012 #221

an atheist could follow the teachings of Jesus. provis99 Feb 2012 #210

"by your definition, there are no such things as Christians" SaintPete Feb 2012 #220

Wow. You take the "no true Scotsman" all the way to the altar! PassingFair Feb 2012 #236

the Church clearly defined what Christianity was with the Nicene Creed grantcart Jan 2012 #95

I can take you to some Chruches where the Nicene Creed is not accepted Bluenorthwest Feb 2012 #138

Just because they don't repeat the Nicene Creed doesn't mean that they don't accept the grantcart Feb 2012 #156

Jesus. cliffordu Feb 2012 #161

100% against all forms of gambling? KamaAina Feb 2012 #280

True, but only after a long and often brutal fight... spin Feb 2012 #260

The other sects were wiped out CJCRANE Feb 2012 #272

Magic 8 Ball says: My sources say no. So I guess not. cherokeeprogressive Jan 2012 #5

I find it amusing that a Magic 8 Ball has "sources". Capitalocracy Jan 2012 #28

Are you SURE? PassingFair Feb 2012 #200

Define "christian". nm rhett o rick Jan 2012 #7

Definition of Christian: Someone who considers them self Christian. Kablooie Jan 2012 #103

I would say they are, however... white_wolf Jan 2012 #8

Do they worship the biblical Christ? Ohio Dem Jan 2012 #10

They do. Their interpertation of him is different than other sects, of course. white_wolf Jan 2012 #13

I'm not an expert, but that makes them Christian by definition. Ohio Dem Jan 2012 #29

Do they concider Jesus the savior? nm rhett o rick Feb 2012 #111

Yeah they do. white_wolf Feb 2012 #112

You can say you worship this god or that prophet SaintPete Jan 2012 #40

Yeah, no argument. Ohio Dem Jan 2012 #59

So if I PM you my address, you'll send me all your cash? Goblinmonger Feb 2012 #202

When I convert to Christianity I'll let you know SaintPete Feb 2012 #226

most gods didn't "teach" anything. They simply existed. provis99 Feb 2012 #211

Jesus had teachings SaintPete Feb 2012 #223

Zeus didn't have teachings. provis99 Feb 2012 #254

Lol. You might have had a point, IF I had actually made the argument you say I made SaintPete Feb 2012 #255

Buddha isn't a god, though. white_wolf Feb 2012 #274

To Buddhists, true SaintPete Feb 2012 #275

Good point. I wasn't thinking of the Hindu perspective. white_wolf Feb 2012 #278

Yes. ZombieHorde Jan 2012 #11

They talk out of both sides. They follow that Joseph Smith dude, book of mormon and they lonestarnot Jan 2012 #14

What's your feeling about Mo Udall? onenote Jan 2012 #16

Cult member liberal yes. lonestarnot Jan 2012 #20

What's the difference between a cult and a religion? white_wolf Jan 2012 #18

No, lonestarnot Jan 2012 #44

No one can choose what they actually believe cpwm17 Jan 2012 #85

The public relations department. n/t hughee99 Jan 2012 #97

A few hundred years. Orangepeel Feb 2012 #116

Following Jesus makes people cultists too. Arugula Latte Feb 2012 #249

The full name of the church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints". Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #15

My rule of thumb: Skinner Jan 2012 #19

FYI, Andrew Sullivan posted three blogs with differing opinions on this last October. Links: highplainsdem Jan 2012 #21

The fundamentalists I know do not consider either Catholics or Mormons to be Christian... undeterred Jan 2012 #23

Anyone who claims that a Catholic is not a Christian Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #25

Well, there are a lot of idiots in religious circles. undeterred Jan 2012 #31

Thank you, Nye Bevan. I always get upset when people say things like "I was Catholic, Ecumenist Jan 2012 #48

I'll never understand how the original form of Christianity became regarded as false white_wolf Jan 2012 #61

You're absolutely right. My husband is Catholic, well he's Catholic AND Lutheran...long story Ecumenist Jan 2012 #65

Some would say the 'original form' is found in the Acts of the Apostles long prior to Bluenorthwest Feb 2012 #139

You're right. There are Christians, and then there are "Christians." Poiuyt Jan 2012 #102

There's Fundamentalist Catholics that don't believe that non Catholics are Christian Nikia Jan 2012 #106

well, according to my Sunday School teachers "Christian" means NashvilleLefty Jan 2012 #24

That depends on your definition of the word "Christian" Motown_Johnny Jan 2012 #30

One billion Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant Christians all agree that 'Christian' is defined grantcart Feb 2012 #125

Except for those who do not. Quakers, Jehovah's Witnesses, Unitarians, the Church of Bluenorthwest Feb 2012 #140

Incorrect see # 156 above grantcart Feb 2012 #158

He is actually correct quaker bill Feb 2012 #256

Still incorrect grantcart Feb 2012 #259

A very intellectual response quaker bill Feb 2012 #261

This message was self-deleted by its author grantcart Feb 2012 #258

Most of those one billion have no idea Motown_Johnny Feb 2012 #141

Answered in detail in # 156 grantcart Feb 2012 #160

In fact, they consider themselves Protestants (as such things go) Nevernose Jan 2012 #32

They don't consider themselves Protestants. white_wolf Jan 2012 #39

I said "for all intents and purposes" Nevernose Jan 2012 #46

It probably depends a lot on where you live. white_wolf Jan 2012 #54

I don't think Mormon's consider themselves Protestants at all... metalbot Jan 2012 #108

No these secret underwear wearing folks gopiscrap Jan 2012 #36

What about the silly-hat-wearing Pope? n/t Goblinmonger Feb 2012 #203

I have a friend who is a fundie christian (yeah, you read that right), kestrel91316 Jan 2012 #47

Yes EvolveOrConvolve Jan 2012 #51

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints MuseRider Jan 2012 #53

That's what I thought. Cleita Jan 2012 #82

It depends on perspective Digit Jan 2012 #55

Digit, this Christian loves you just the way you are.. I'm not God and cannot judge you Ecumenist Jan 2012 #62

I define a religion based on the teachings or worship of Christ rocktivity Jan 2012 #60

Of course he does. PassingFair Jan 2012 #93

Allow people to define themselves... BrentWil Jan 2012 #64

Don't care, really don't care. MadHound Jan 2012 #67

Define Christian Sgent Jan 2012 #69

Most accept that Creed, others do not and some reject all Creeds as idols of a sort. Bluenorthwest Feb 2012 #142

Unitarians Sgent Feb 2012 #166

Very much so. Jack Sprat Jan 2012 #72

Kick Morning Dew Jan 2012 #76

Look the issue is about the definition of God. Jesus plays a minor role in Mormonism just like Islam jwirr Jan 2012 #83

You are wrong. white_wolf Jan 2012 #87

That is what I said it is the definition. I did not say the Mormons defined Jesus as a prophet I jwirr Jan 2012 #88

You just said that "Jesus plays a minor role in Mormonism just like Islam". PassingFair Jan 2012 #94

The just was referring to the phrase "a minor role". jwirr Feb 2012 #183

Muslims consider Christians to be Muslims who have been led astray. provis99 Feb 2012 #212

Not sure what you are talking about but they have every right to say that since their religion does jwirr Feb 2012 #253

If Joe Leiberman can claim to be a Democrat SaintPete Jan 2012 #86

Heck if I know etherealtruth Jan 2012 #89

Are Christians Christian? SomethingFishy Jan 2012 #90

ICK flamingdem Jan 2012 #91

Maybe a few are. Of the roughly one billion humans who claim to be Christians, about 2 hundred Skwid Jan 2012 #92

Mormons do not fit the orthodox definition of Christianity and cannot be considered 'Christians', so grantcart Jan 2012 #96

Those intolerant Church Fathers don't own Christianity any more than Roman Catholics do Nikia Jan 2012 #104

History owns the word grantcart Feb 2012 #123

You are incorrect that the Nicene Creed is the accepted Standard. Many Protestant Bluenorthwest Feb 2012 #146

Most Unitarians don't claim to be Christian. Critters2 Feb 2012 #185

Christ related sect of what? metalbot Feb 2012 #109

Well that would be an argument depending upon your point of view grantcart Feb 2012 #124

Christians mostly are not christian... Hepburn Jan 2012 #98

I've known alot of Mormons, always thought they were Christians. Never asked and don't give a shit. limpyhobbler Jan 2012 #101

No but they use Jesus to sound more mainstream marlakay Jan 2012 #107

I agree. I dated a Mormon in college. Learned a lot. Jesus plays almost no role in Mormonism. Critters2 Feb 2012 #110

My best friend when I was in 6th and 7th grade marlakay Feb 2012 #184

More importantly, the fundies and evangelicals and social cons DON'T think so. Lex Feb 2012 #117

No, never underestimate them, they want President Obama to be gone akbacchus_BC Feb 2012 #119

My voting actions have never been based on what the fundies do. Lex Feb 2012 #121

I never said that you do! akbacchus_BC Feb 2012 #122

To the best of my ability and from reading the Bible, Mormons are Christians akbacchus_BC Feb 2012 #118

No, because they believe in a non-canonical 'revealed' Prophet and non-canonical texts JCMach1 Feb 2012 #131

In practice probably a lot more Christian then the people that say they aren't. Ganja Ninja Feb 2012 #134

Well, this went well. MineralMan Feb 2012 #136

If Mormons believe they need intercession by someone OTHER than Christ Romulox Feb 2012 #137

Mormons don't belelive in the intercession of anyone but Jesus. white_wolf Feb 2012 #143

No. Mormons believe that Joseph Smith's prophecy ALTER the previous covenant. Romulox Feb 2012 #152

No, Mormons beleive Joseph Smith restored the orginal covenant. white_wolf Feb 2012 #154

The "original" covenant was with Adam. Mormons believe the covenant made by Jesus Romulox Feb 2012 #164

You are correct. Common Sense Party Feb 2012 #273

Yes, they believe in Christ treestar Feb 2012 #144

Muslims believe in Christ. nt Romulox Feb 2012 #153

They think he's a prophet, right? treestar Feb 2012 #155

Mormons do not believe that Jesus is god, either. Romulox Feb 2012 #162

Mormons beleive Jesus is a a god. white_wolf Feb 2012 #165

It's a confused theology, imo. Romulox Feb 2012 #168

As opposed to all of the other "non-confused" theologies? PassingFair Feb 2012 #191

They are self-proclaimed Christians and view Jesus as the primary figure, HOWEVER,... HopeHoops Feb 2012 #145

a cult is merely an unpopular sect. provis99 Feb 2012 #213

One could argue that they're a cult as well. HopeHoops Feb 2012 #241

Who cares, really? Yo_Mama Feb 2012 #151

Oh yeah! SaintPete Feb 2012 #157

You read my mind, er, Constitution Yo_Mama Feb 2012 #167

Your comments about Kennedy and Jackson crack me up SaintPete Feb 2012 #178

Well, let's just say Yo_Mama Feb 2012 #180

"Sojourners' Forum on Faith, Values and Poverty." Remember that fiasco? PassingFair Feb 2012 #159

Yes, I do, and I was in fact thinking about it when I responded Yo_Mama Feb 2012 #248

Amen PassingFair Feb 2012 #252

Exactly. Romney's political views are far worse they any religion Jennicut Feb 2012 #246

Yeah - we're trying to elect a President Yo_Mama Feb 2012 #247

Not in the traditional sense, since they'd have to accept concepts like the Trinity. closeupready Feb 2012 #163

Lol. This entire thread is hilarious. Arugula Latte Feb 2012 #175

To each their own SaintPete Feb 2012 #179

Apostate! Heretic! Heathen! PassingFair Feb 2012 #207

No, it points out how absolutely stupid and ridiculous Union Scribe Feb 2012 #227

I'm not Mormon, but I do live in Utah. Mormons do consider themselves to be Christians. n/t helderheid Feb 2012 #182

Exact libodem Feb 2012 #186

The evangelicals, fundies, and teabaggers won't go for it Lex Feb 2012 #188

Did you ever go though the Book of Morman? Pretty wierd stuff in there. Thats what they believe, demosincebirth Feb 2012 #194

Yeah, but the "real" bible isn't full of wierd (sic) stuff. Goblinmonger Feb 2012 #205

Hey! There's nothing "wierd" about Christianity!!1! PassingFair Feb 2012 #208

They want to be accepted as the Chosen People siligut Feb 2012 #257

so where do we put Christian Jews? yes, they exist. provis99 Feb 2012 #214

In the same way that Scientology is a religion. GoneOffShore Feb 2012 #217

Lol. DU theology class is in session. Union Scribe Feb 2012 #225

Apparently a section of the wall crumbled in DU3! PassingFair Feb 2012 #238

DU3 lets you hide threads, you know. Goblinmonger Feb 2012 #240

Interesting thread mick063 Feb 2012 #262

Some are, some aren't--like any Christian religion. Common Sense Party Feb 2012 #263

IBTL Major Hogwash Feb 2012 #266

Mormonism is to Christianity as.... Evasporque Feb 2012 #269

I think you mean the reverse, but I get ya SaintPete Feb 2012 #277

Yes. A Christian is anyone who tries to emulate Christ. Taverner Feb 2012 #276

They define themselves as much. The entirety of the rest of the discussion is about Scotsmen. (nt) Posteritatis Feb 2012 #279