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frazzled

(18,402 posts)

210. Breaking the very laws that you are protesting as unjust ...

Sat Feb 4, 2012, 12:40 AM

Feb 2012

is not the same as breaking laws just to break laws, and that have little to do with your mission. The first is righteous; the second fairly pointless (and, yes, alienating).

Sitting at a lunch counter or in the front of a bus was breaking local laws that forbade blacks and whites to sit together in public. The point of breaking those laws was specifically to show the injustice of those laws themselves, and to rescind them. The point of breaking the law was that particular law itself.

If the message is supposed to be corporate power and the economic injustice to which it leads, breaking a law against putting up a tent in a park hardly seems anything clear and trenchant like the civil disobedience of the Civil Rights movement. It doesn't seem to address the issue at all. It's frankly distracting.

I don't know why people don't get this point. I just finished watching "Ghandi" on television. When he marched to the sea and made salt, he was breaking a law of the British government that was keeping the people of India impoverished and removing their own resources from them as a means of control. Retrieving the salt was symbolic of retrieving control of their own destinies. He was happy to go to prison for it, as were his followers. They were pleased to be beaten for it.

Now if you see camping as a cogent symbol of Wall Street evil (you'll have to convince me that this makes any sense whatsoever, or has any real meaning to the general public) and wish to break a municipal ordinance to do so, then you should be happy to get arrested for it. And not complain about it or gasp over the injustice of it. You are doing it to make a point about corporate money and economic injustice, after all ... right?

There are smart kinds of civil disobedience that inspire people; and there are misguided kinds of civil disobedience that simply make people shrug and wonder what you're doing. I'm for smart civil disobedience.

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I guess it is a stupid way to get your idea across... and it does tend to alienate people. [View all] LanternWaste Feb 2012 OP

THANK YOU! n/t librechik Feb 2012 #1

IT'S NOT HARD TO FUCKING OFFEND PEOPLE! Bicoastal Feb 2012 #20

A few people always get overexcited. JDPriestly Feb 2012 #98

No it isn't hard to offend people. GeorgeGist Feb 2012 #154

OMG - occupying lunch counters, fronts of buses! How anti-American! leveymg Feb 2012 #2

Not to mention, these folks only started the movement, there was plenty Lionessa Feb 2012 #45

Rosa Parks should have torched a flag on the bus. Skinner Feb 2012 #3

And if she did that, everyone would know exactly what her cause was arcane1 Feb 2012 #5

Oh come on, it's practically the same exact thing! redqueen Feb 2012 #9

This message was self-deleted by its author arely staircase Feb 2012 #90

A tiny group of people burned the flag in Oakland. JDPriestly Feb 2012 #101

It is absurd, but that's what the MSM do... redqueen Feb 2012 #103

...and what people here help them do...nt Union Scribe Feb 2012 #132

Thank you! nobodyspecial Feb 2012 #10

Same here! loyalsister Feb 2012 #120

True that both would have been unpopular. LanternWaste Feb 2012 #15

I don't think you understand--activism is not JUST about offending the other side. Bicoastal Feb 2012 #37

"It hasn't even worked here" Union Scribe Feb 2012 #131

It wouldn't have been as appropriate at the time as it is now. Lionessa Feb 2012 #21

I don't see the economic hardship and cronyism today as equal to Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2012 #32

Please refer to our conversations in any other related thread. You and I have covered Lionessa Feb 2012 #36

Have you ever made less that $10000 a year in your adult life? sudopod Feb 2012 #54

Look beyond today cbrer Feb 2012 #136

+1 Wait Wut Feb 2012 #38

That's the first overt snark I've heard from you, Skinner. leveymg Feb 2012 #82

THANK YOU! n/t librechik Feb 2012 #111

LOL. Good one Skinner. tabasco Feb 2012 #118

Especially if she STOLE the flag from a public building! tabasco Feb 2012 #119

doing what she did was incendiary Union Scribe Feb 2012 #130

Of course she should have done it. And, as I said, Skinner Feb 2012 #140

Clever sarcasm - check whatchamacallit Feb 2012 #147

So, just more sarcasm. Union Scribe Feb 2012 #164

By that logic, Occupy should sit down. On buses. In this day and age ... T S Justly Feb 2012 #142

Maybe she should have smashed the bus windows windows as well. alphafemale Feb 2012 #165

Flag burning was taboo until the 1980s. Black people sitting on busses... joshcryer Feb 2012 #172

+1000 Cleita Feb 2012 #4

Yeah! Imagine how much more Rosa Parks would have accomplished... Bicoastal Feb 2012 #6

heh Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2012 #8

Weird. I thought Rev King won by appealing to what was best about people Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2012 #7

They are as false or as true as we see them to be. LanternWaste Feb 2012 #11

No, they are as alienating as mainstream society sees them to be. nt redqueen Feb 2012 #13

Then we must ask ourselves an unpleasant question LanternWaste Feb 2012 #17

How is that unpleasant? It's very basic PR. redqueen Feb 2012 #25

Censoring a statement or a thing you yourself believe is just and true LanternWaste Feb 2012 #58

I can't believe you're comparing stealing and burning a flag redqueen Feb 2012 #64

The question is not whether the flag-burning was offensive. JDPriestly Feb 2012 #125

It will be as alienating as the undecideds determine. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2012 #16

OWS is not running for office. nt EFerrari Feb 2012 #23

More is the pity. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2012 #29

I'm guessing you'll need to ask yourself that questions. LanternWaste Feb 2012 #31

Way to get lost in the sauce. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2012 #43

That's what I thought as well. nt MADem Feb 2012 #19

King didn't operate in a vacuum. There were radical alternatives that applied pressure to the debate TheKentuckian Feb 2012 #27

You are right Art_from_Ark Feb 2012 #182

Exactly the right comparison. I've tried to verbally Lionessa Feb 2012 #12

Not even close. nobodyspecial Feb 2012 #41

Are they burning flags at that lunch counter or on that bus? MADem Feb 2012 #14

No, but if they were burning the confederate flag in those instances, would it bother you? Lionessa Feb 2012 #28

So why DIDN'T they burn the Confederate flag? Bicoastal Feb 2012 #44

Ultimately we burned the USA flag, and STILL managed to have the issues addressed, go figure. Lionessa Feb 2012 #53

Why are you comparing the Confederate flag... Wait Wut Feb 2012 #47

That's as silly as saying "If they were burning Barbie dolls would it bother you?" MADem Feb 2012 #66

If you can't see the relevance, then there's no ground for us to discuss the matter. Lionessa Feb 2012 #80

I can't see the relevance, and it's pretty clear I'm not alone. nt MADem Feb 2012 #85

And I'm not alone in seeing it, WTF does that have to do with anything? Afraid to have your own Lionessa Feb 2012 #86

I've made my opinion very clear in this thread. MADem Feb 2012 #87

Then why point out that you're in a group of like opinions if not to make that Lionessa Feb 2012 #89

I have contributed a number of comments to this thread, that express my feelings on the topic. MADem Feb 2012 #96

Alas history doesn't support your perception. Lionessa Feb 2012 #100

Again, let's get back to this OP and stop wandering all afield to find a hook upon which to hang MADem Feb 2012 #104

Bless your heart. Lionessa Feb 2012 #108

Right backatcha, y'all. nt MADem Feb 2012 #109

no you are not. Bluerthanblue Feb 2012 #88

+ a brazilian nt arely staircase Feb 2012 #95

MADem, the Civil Rights movement turned quite disorderly. JDPriestly Feb 2012 #126

I invite your attention to the OP, once again. MADem Feb 2012 #139

Don't Worry... they aren't harming your modern day staus quo fascisthunter Feb 2012 #194

Pardon me for making an observation shared by most. MADem Feb 2012 #212

no... it was I who hit a nerve fascisthunter Feb 2012 #213

What, bite down on a piece of peanut brittle and break a tooth? Go see a dentist! MADem Feb 2012 #216

Just admit it... fascisthunter Feb 2012 #217

You are only an apprentice at baiting behavior. MADem Feb 2012 #218

No, I was wrong... you aren't on my side fascisthunter Feb 2012 #219

By your words I know you. MADem Feb 2012 #223

Not all that similar, really. MineralMan Feb 2012 #18

Similar in that they are both LanternWaste Feb 2012 #22

I don't know a soul who was "pissed off" at those civil rights demonstrations. MADem Feb 2012 #68

And did the subsequent flag burning and riots stop the movement, or end the possibility of making a Lionessa Feb 2012 #91

Martin Luther King never burned a flag. Nor did anyone following him. MADem Feb 2012 #99

Neither MLK nor his direct followers won the Civil Rights movement alone, Lionessa Feb 2012 #102

You're failing to make the argument postulated in the OP. MADem Feb 2012 #107

During the Civil Rights era flags were burned. Did that change your mind about the major sabrina 1 Feb 2012 #110

I invite your attention to the OP, which says that Rosa Parks and a lunch counter sit in is the MADem Feb 2012 #113

I asked a question, your post is very combative for some reason. The OP is a continuation of sabrina 1 Feb 2012 #117

My post is not combative at all. It is very unfortunate for you that you see it that way. MADem Feb 2012 #161

No, what's wrong is your attempt to link one incident of flag burning to the entire OWS sabrina 1 Feb 2012 #166

You apparently have not read my posts. MADem Feb 2012 #168

African American decorated WW11 Veteran, Sydney Street burned his American flag after the sabrina 1 Feb 2012 #177

I'll have to tell James Meredith he's dead--I'm quite sure he'll be very shocked at the news. MADem Feb 2012 #179

'Hoards of Black people'? Did someone make that claim? sabrina 1 Feb 2012 #184

You are the one who keeps mentioning them. Look at all the posts you have made on the topic. MADem Feb 2012 #185

Personal attack, and using the race of respected, historical people to do it. sabrina 1 Feb 2012 #189

It is plainly apparent to me that your posts are full of errors of fact. MADem Feb 2012 #215

Is it too late to reply to this post?? Number23 Mar 2012 #236

This is just yet another example of that business we see all too often. MADem Mar 2012 #237

Massive, massive history fail.... msanthrope Feb 2012 #225

You and I were cheering. But many, many people were not. JDPriestly Feb 2012 #127

The only people that weren't cheering were racists in their hearts. MADem Feb 2012 #138

And burning flags occurred during that era also, and were as irrelevant to that movement as sabrina 1 Feb 2012 #167

"The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral, Nye Bevan Feb 2012 #24

Burning a flag isn't violence. Geez. Lionessa Feb 2012 #30

So if some rednecks wanted to burn a Mexican flag on Cinco de Mayo, you'd support them. Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2012 #40

Absolutely. It's only fabric. Lionessa Feb 2012 #46

Do you think it would help them to build support redqueen Feb 2012 #55

Doubt it would make any long term impression, as flag burning in the past has not Lionessa Feb 2012 #57

"because of or in spite of doesn't matter" redqueen Feb 2012 #61

I don't need historians, I can read. Almost all civil rights movements have Lionessa Feb 2012 #78

I wasn't really thinking about flag-burning when I posted this. Nye Bevan Feb 2012 #69

+1 renie408 Feb 2012 #159

Send that to the Oakland PD. sabrina 1 Feb 2012 #186

nah, that poster like violence against us fascisthunter Feb 2012 #199

S/he seemed confused over where the violence has been coming from, so I sabrina 1 Feb 2012 #220

try HARDER! fascisthunter Feb 2012 #195

Sorry. What was I thinking, quoting Martin Luther King? Nye Bevan Feb 2012 #201

you mean twisting the meaning of his words... yeah, pretty sick actually fascisthunter Feb 2012 #202

Yep. You busted me. I twisted the meaning of his words. Nye Bevan Feb 2012 #204

yup... I did, again fascisthunter Feb 2012 #205

you certainly did! (nt) Nye Bevan Feb 2012 #207

Oh, yes I did! fascisthunter Feb 2012 #208

Thanks! Nye Bevan Feb 2012 #209

Well so long as you were directing his words towards the violent, and not towards OWS sabrina 1 Feb 2012 #221

What about these gentlemen? Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2012 #26

If you believe there was no rioting during the Civil Rights Movement EFerrari Feb 2012 #39

The so-called "race riots" were mostly massacres of innocent blacks by racist white gangs. Nye Bevan Feb 2012 #70

Yes, the overwhelming majority of race riots were whites attacking EFerrari Feb 2012 #73

Oh, dear. Who told you that? JDPriestly Feb 2012 #128

"Who"? The same assholes on FOX NEWS fascisthunter Feb 2012 #203

One of them did. A decorated African American WW11 veteran burned a flag sabrina 1 Feb 2012 #222

They were challenging specific evils hack89 Feb 2012 #33

Responding to the flag burning by flag clutching is easy. EFerrari Feb 2012 #34

Who's clutching? Saying "dumb ass move" isn't "clutching." MADem Feb 2012 #74

Yes, these pictures so clearly illustrate how some OWS actions have NOT nobodyspecial Feb 2012 #35

+100000000000000, especially that last sentence redqueen Feb 2012 #42

Like Wall Street.. so how much are you invested in that fetid tit? fascisthunter Feb 2012 #196

"fetid tit' redqueen Feb 2012 #224

Great Post! n/t zappaman Feb 2012 #48

You are comparing the air brushed mass media version of the civil rights movement EFerrari Feb 2012 #51

Right on!!! Wait Wut Feb 2012 #52

The lunch counter sit-in participants dressed up for the occasion, were polite and friendly, Nye Bevan Feb 2012 #71

lol fascisthunter Feb 2012 #206

peace AND violence took the civil rights movement forward xchrom Feb 2012 #84

That violence was used does not mean it helped. Donald Ian Rankin Feb 2012 #116

word n/t Bluerthanblue Feb 2012 #122

+2 nt MADem Feb 2012 #170

Yup lunatica Feb 2012 #200

wish I could recommend your reply! Bluerthanblue Feb 2012 #94

Bravo! Bobbie Jo Feb 2012 #124

this right here. nt sudopod Feb 2012 #49

What an incredibly ridiculous comparison Summer Hathaway Feb 2012 #50

It's not more ridculous than taking a tiny group of people for the whole of OWS. EFerrari Feb 2012 #59

I commented on the OP's comparison Summer Hathaway Feb 2012 #62

So then your implicit comparision is between the careful staging of Rosa Parks EFerrari Feb 2012 #67

I'm not the one making the comparison Summer Hathaway Feb 2012 #75

"by showing how non-violence - as opposed to theft, vandalism and flag-burning" EFerrari Feb 2012 #76

The OP begins with quotes Summer Hathaway Feb 2012 #92

Yet you and others here defend that tiny group of people. Which is it? MADem Feb 2012 #79

They are disrupters. JDPriestly Feb 2012 #129

Do you associate yourself with their behavior, or do you believe they were there to disrupt OWS? MADem Feb 2012 #137

I think that at least one of them was there to disrupt OWS. JDPriestly Feb 2012 #233

I think your assessment is probably quite accurate. nt MADem Feb 2012 #234

The guy holding the flag was an Occupier as said by one of the lead Oakland Occupiers. joshcryer Feb 2012 #176

LOL! joshcryer Feb 2012 #175

Suffragettes went around with hammers breaking rich peoples' windows. Strikers blocked traffic. Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2012 #56

Correction: it's supposed to piss THE RIGHT people off. Bicoastal Feb 2012 #60

Not necessarily. Read this brilliant post: EFerrari Feb 2012 #77

Did they break poor peoples' windows? How about the windows of other suffragettes? MADem Feb 2012 #83

No, and the window breaking was part of an overall strategy. nobodyspecial Feb 2012 #97

You're absolutely right about that. MADem Feb 2012 #115

JHC, breaking ANYTHING with a hammer isn't civil disobedience. renie408 Feb 2012 #158

Burning a flag has nothing to do with what OWS focuses on, but JDPriestly Feb 2012 #235

The media reaction to those protests was negative too. Starry Messenger Feb 2012 #63

"The flag-burning is just being used as a red herring." redqueen Feb 2012 #65

DHS? a simple pattern Feb 2012 #143

Are you somehow under the misconception that the OWSer was fighting for the right to burn the flag?. SidDithers Feb 2012 #72

Oy. Holy false analogies! Bruce Wayne Feb 2012 #81

So how do you feel about all the flag burning that took place during the Civil Rights era sabrina 1 Feb 2012 #114

It didn't happen that much. Mostly people carried flags at marches or wore them on pants. Bruce Wayne Feb 2012 #141

I'd love to see some pictures of all these black people burning flags. MADem Feb 2012 #162

Major Fail treestar Feb 2012 #93

What courage does it take to burn a flag? I mean, whoopee-doo, how TwilightGardener Feb 2012 #105

even the 'legal' aspect is in question in this case, since the flag didn't belong to the burner n/t Bodhi BloodWave Feb 2012 #227

This message was self-deleted by its author Cali_Democrat Feb 2012 #106

Atticus Finch said... ananda Feb 2012 #112

So true, and most movements and revolutions that changed the world, were not supported sabrina 1 Feb 2012 #121

I love a good red herring. HuckleB Feb 2012 #123

How is it a red herring? During the Civil Rights era and the Anti Vietnam era, many people sabrina 1 Feb 2012 #134

THe difference is civil disobedience can be useful while burning the flag never is BrentWil Feb 2012 #133

Really, did flag burning end the Civil Rights movement? Or the anti-Vietnam War movement? sabrina 1 Feb 2012 #135

Sitting at the counter stated "We're people too" Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #144

How Is Trying To End Jim Crow Analogous To Burning A National Symbol Many Find Sacred? DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2012 #145

It's Amazing That The Most Flawed Analogy In The History Of D.U. Got Fifty Seven Recommends DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2012 #146

Thank you. This comparison is absurd. Comparing passive, civil disobedience.. renie408 Feb 2012 #148

I Don't Think Flag Burning Is Tantamount To Vandalism DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2012 #150

Knocking over a 100 year old scale model of city hall is. n/t renie408 Feb 2012 #151

And actually, if you stole the flag you are burning, it is PRECISELY vandalism. renie408 Feb 2012 #152

It would not be vandalism if it were their flag. However, they stole it. MADem Feb 2012 #171

Maybe because it is not flawed. Or are you saying that this event when it happened did not sabrina 1 Feb 2012 #169

How was Trying To Break Jim Crow DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2012 #188

I find it ironic that the people in the pictures are doing what Occupy Oakland was SUPPOSED renie408 Feb 2012 #149

I Don't See How It Got So Many Recommends DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2012 #153

It got so many recs because of the Pavlovian response to a picture of Rosa Parks. renie408 Feb 2012 #157

LOL! redqueen Feb 2012 #160

Why do you find it ironic? Are you saying that all Occupiers around the country and the sabrina 1 Feb 2012 #174

The poutrage at flag burning ... GeorgeGist Feb 2012 #155

No Poutrage But It Has All The Efficacy Of Mooning Somebody DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2012 #156

The poutrage seems to be coming from the one percent within the 99 percent MADem Feb 2012 #173

Got any polls on that? The only people, other than the small number on DU who are 'outraged' sabrina 1 Feb 2012 #178

I've got a link....keep saying this is "No big deal." It's got--like it or not--legs, and it will MADem Feb 2012 #180

Lol, that's what was said about the other flag burnings. No one even remembers them at this point. sabrina 1 Feb 2012 #181

Keep missing the point. Deliberate obtuseness isn't charming, it's sad. MADem Feb 2012 #183

Being right about justice HAS NEVER BEEN POPULAR!!! Ecumenist Feb 2012 #163

Could You Show Me The Nexus DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2012 #187

Could you show us the nexus between the huge Global movment of Occupiers and the sabrina 1 Feb 2012 #190

So If I Go To My Park And Burn A Flag I'm As Brave As Cheney, Schwerner, And Goodman? DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2012 #191

Well that has nothing to do with the question I asked. sabrina 1 Feb 2012 #192

Right On!!! fascisthunter Feb 2012 #193

The f*cking flag does not represent me. L0oniX Feb 2012 #197

I love you! lunatica Feb 2012 #198

Breaking the very laws that you are protesting as unjust ... frazzled Feb 2012 #210

And here's where you lose me... renie408 Feb 2012 #231

They should go home and get a job. The party will take of things. mmonk Feb 2012 #211

I know Right? fascisthunter Feb 2012 #214

Right. mmonk Feb 2012 #226

heh! KG Feb 2012 #230

When a symbol of freedom is held more sacred than freedom itself HillWilliam Feb 2012 #228

If They Really Wanted To Piss Off The One Percenter They Should Have Burned Money DemocratSinceBirth Feb 2012 #229

Never had much popularity anyway... 99Forever Feb 2012 #232