General Discussion

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)

77. I was kind of on the fence about them...

Fri Apr 12, 2013, 12:32 AM

Apr 2013

just kind of wondering if they were using the best approach after seeing odd reports of events they staged in Russia. And the bull in a china shop approach in muslim areas of Paris. And the vehement anti-muslim statements I had seen attributed to them, that would probably be not helpful to someone like Amina.

I poked around a little to see what they had been up to before WTO and Pussy Riot, and honestly- they seem all over the map. Committed to no cause for longer than five minutes. Public toilets, better heat in their apartments, less prostitution (but not none)- just kind of random sound bites. It's seems they are more like a self promoting arty think piece (not necessarily bad, btw) than anything that resembles actually working for a cause. If only because so much of their message is self contradictory.

I don't think they are evil, LOL but I do think in some situations they may be doing more harm than good. I'm not sure what the fallout is for LT committed feminists working their communities after they come in and do their thing. From what I read Amina disavows any anti- Muslim sentiment (the flag burning in particular) and also feels the need to leave her country now. Is that good? Will Femen give her the job in Paris and that's the best outcome? I don't pretend to know. I worry about those left behind, after the stunt is over.

I also don't think they have been an international movement at all, but they certainly aspire to it. Lastly, I think they are popular in a way because they are not demanding anything really that anyone can act on, so people can feel all radical but not hurt their heads by putting anything into context or see the shades of gray, or god forbid- push for real solutions. So, yeah- on the fence.

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Amina a Tunisian Woman Protested about Anti-Women policies and Anti-Women acts in Tunisia. [View all] stevenleser Apr 2013 OP

Crickets Kick stevenleser Apr 2013 #1

crickets, because you failed to mention that boobs were involved. Quantess Apr 2013 #2

Sad, wry laugh. nt riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #3

LOL, true! stevenleser Apr 2013 #4

+1 LadyHawkAZ Apr 2013 #7

while i am completely against people justifying their islamophobia by using women and gays La Lioness Priyanka Apr 2013 #5

I really think it is hostility about the showing of boobs. I think all else is a smokescreen. stevenleser Apr 2013 #6

i think part of it is also that no one wants to admit oppression in their own culture La Lioness Priyanka Apr 2013 #8

I don't think that is what is going on here on DU. I think most of us are aware of global issues of stevenleser Apr 2013 #15

I think I just got exactly how you meant that. And I agree. stevenleser Apr 2013 #20

You are wilfully misrepresenting the arguments of those opposed to FEMEN. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #11

There is nothing to represent. At best, you advocate a form of belief segregation. That's at best. stevenleser Apr 2013 #12

More willful misrepresentation. Directing away from our argument to boobs. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #19

As I said, your stated argument itself is a form of ethnocentrism. If you are happy to stand on that stevenleser Apr 2013 #21

And what, exactly are those arguments? cliffordu Apr 2013 #29

FEMEN does not and cannot speak for Muslim women. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #50

And that is an ethnocentrist argument. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #57

... Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #60

Oh, I know what that word means. Do you? You keep saying only people of certain ethnic backgrounds stevenleser Apr 2013 #71

Ethnicity is the spurious connection. What I'm really talking about are power relationships. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #76

What you're really doing is making it up as you go along, to attack Femen. And hide the fact that stevenleser Apr 2013 #79

Nope. Power relationships are the actual issue at hand here. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #86

So it's not about ethnicity, it's about power. Oh yeah and because they're white, and not muslim. stevenleser Apr 2013 #91

You should read up on the separatist/liberationist movements. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #93

Can you point us dummies to an actual statement cliffordu Apr 2013 #98

At the bar right now. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #106

Sorry to interrupt your drinking... cliffordu Apr 2013 #112

No worries. The drinking interrupted this debate. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #113

Somehow I simultaneously understand your predicament and cliffordu Apr 2013 #115

The don't speak FOR, they speak in SUPPORT OF. Please show some evidence that FEMEN idwiyo Apr 2013 #119

Just one example... Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #132

Please explain what in that picture suggest to you FEMEN speaks FOR Muslim women. idwiyo Apr 2013 #135

*sigh* If it's not self apparent to you, you're either not ready to see... Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #136

Are you aware of the difference between 'Islamism' and 'Islam'? muriel_volestrangler Apr 2013 #138

Thank you. I am really curious what is it they see in that picture that makes them believe idwiyo Apr 2013 #141

What is self apparent to me, is definitely not self apparent to you. What in that picture idwiyo Apr 2013 #140

I didn't know anyone was opposed to FEMEN. Who would that be? Coyotl Apr 2013 #124

Women have been going to Tunisia and showing off their Boobs for years and were never stoned JI7 Apr 2013 #42

Some on FEMEN's statements are hostile to Islam BainsBane Apr 2013 #13

It's more than some. FEMEN is an expressly anti-Islam group. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #23

That's my understanding as well BainsBane Apr 2013 #30

I've been looking through the FEMEN website. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #32

My Ukrainian is rusty BainsBane Apr 2013 #37

Oh sorry. At the top right of the page you can switch to English. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #38

Much better BainsBane Apr 2013 #46

Not completely correct. Femen is anti-religion. And they are anti-religion because they believe that stevenleser Apr 2013 #31

So apparently that woman's battered face is alright with you. cliffordu Apr 2013 #116

Hostility toward religion is a HUMAN RIGHT. DeSwiss Apr 2013 #62

Despising 90% of the world's population BainsBane Apr 2013 #63

You're putting words into my mouth. DeSwiss Apr 2013 #75

Deal! BainsBane Apr 2013 #84

Which 90% would that be??? cliffordu Apr 2013 #103

Where did you get "despising" from? Projecting your own thoughts maybe? idwiyo Apr 2013 #120

I was speaking of the poster's absurd comment BainsBane Apr 2013 #123

I do not think the are Islamophobic. They definitely support full separation of chirch and state, idwiyo Apr 2013 #126

Maybe, just maybe leftynyc Apr 2013 #137

'Religions have no rights' is like 'corporations have no rights' muriel_volestrangler Apr 2013 #139

Or are they Islamist-phobic? Or do they reject specific notions of mainstream Islam? idwiyo Apr 2013 #142

When they write BainsBane Apr 2013 #153

Why should anyone respect racist, sexist and homophobic book? Do tell. idwiyo Apr 2013 #157

as I said BainsBane Apr 2013 #160

I don't equate a book with people, obviously you do. The book IS racist, sexist and homophobic. idwiyo Apr 2013 #162

perfect example of a mischaracterization ... Trajan Apr 2013 #182

so the people would be worthy of respect BainsBane Apr 2013 #183

minus everything after the 1st 'and'.. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #195

could I get a translation on that? BainsBane Apr 2013 #196

nah. \n Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #200

"Many don't see veiling as a form of oppression, particularly since it isn't required in Tunisia." cliffordu Apr 2013 #100

oh i agree with you on most of these things. La Lioness Priyanka Apr 2013 #143

I was kind of on the fence about them... bettyellen Apr 2013 #77

I love this post. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #92

That's is how it's done! **APPLAUSE** I think it takes more than 15 minutes of fame, you know... bettyellen Apr 2013 #167

Advocacy designed to bring about real change is hard work BainsBane Apr 2013 #221

i thought the protest for Japan was the strangest one JI7 Apr 2013 #110

oh, I missed that. I am trying not to be dismissive or snarky about what they are doing, but.... bettyellen Apr 2013 #166

Love this post. redqueen Apr 2013 #147

thanks, I was disheartened to read they bailed on Russia instead of accomplishing anything. bettyellen Apr 2013 #169

That last statement strikes me as particularly insightful BainsBane Apr 2013 #178

Amina has herself stated that she was not kidnapped nor thrown in a psych ward. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #9

And she said that while in the country where some political groups are threatening to stone her to stevenleser Apr 2013 #16

You didn't even mention her statements in your OP. You're an erasure. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #17

I think that is a culturally and colonially biased statement against erasures. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #18

Other Tunisian feminists have been threatened with death, too. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #35

None of that is news to me. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #39

Really. Did you mention them? You who told me that Muslim feminists are like Log Cabin Republicans.. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #45

And just like Log Cabin Republicans, they exist in surprising numbers. And? nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #47

do Catholics support Child Molestation ? should they leave the church to prove they don't ? JI7 Apr 2013 #58

Wrong question. The question to ask is, if Opus Dei promoted molesting children and the state stevenleser Apr 2013 #64

why do you not give the same consideration to Muslims rather than thinking they are all like the JI7 Apr 2013 #66

Are all Catholics "Opus Dei"? When you have figured out the answer to that, you will understand why stevenleser Apr 2013 #68

are all muslims like the fucking Taliban ? JI7 Apr 2013 #70

Are all Catholics like Opus Dei? nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #73

no, and all Muslims are not like the Taliban JI7 Apr 2013 #74

Now you are getting it. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #78

i always got it , i know TUnisia unlike the idiot screaming about stoning to death there JI7 Apr 2013 #80

If you got it, explain what I meant. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #83

And you haven't a clue about the Tunisian feminist movement.. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #65

Let me know when you are ready to stop with the straw men. stevenleser Apr 2013 #67

Why don't you admit up until like maybe yesterday you believed that there Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #99

Why dont you admit you mischaracterized my statement. In fact you make two contradictory accusations stevenleser Apr 2013 #101

Prove that they are mutually exclusive. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #107

I'm happy to let DUers read my previous statement and make up their own minds. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #108

women have been protesting outside for years there and been threatened with stoning, death etc JI7 Apr 2013 #40

And? idwiyo Apr 2013 #121

"Some political groups" = a regional leader of one group who reportedly said she 'should' be stoned, HiPointDem Apr 2013 #131

Thanks, ill be interested in listening G_j Apr 2013 #10

Amina's protest is completely valid BainsBane Apr 2013 #14

Steve does not believe that there are Muslim feminists. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #24

How is that possible? BainsBane Apr 2013 #34

He says, since he has been to Muslim countries, they do not exist. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #41

shit, the same can be said about Obama and all the other Democrats , Catholics make up JI7 Apr 2013 #54

They define themselves as feminists BainsBane Apr 2013 #55

And if a woman says she is not offended by a dongle joke or door being held open The Straight Story Apr 2013 #44

Free associate much? BainsBane Apr 2013 #49

So you can't answer that? The Straight Story Apr 2013 #56

I don't care what people are offended by BainsBane Apr 2013 #59

No, it was about what women should feel on an issue The Straight Story Apr 2013 #69

If that's what you want to lecture people about BainsBane Apr 2013 #81

Eh eh. The door again. I hope you are in real life milking that canard for all it is worth... Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #82

Nice The Straight Story Apr 2013 #88

Quit making up bullshit BainsBane Apr 2013 #90

How about you do the same The Straight Story Apr 2013 #96

I'm bored with your straw man arguments BainsBane Apr 2013 #104

Benevolent sexism has nothing to do with any individual woman's preference. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #97

Seems to me like extremely convoluted concept. It makes an assumption that "benevolent" idwiyo Apr 2013 #127

I think you are confusing "individualism" with feminism. Really common mistake. bettyellen Apr 2013 #179

Please explain how. idwiyo Apr 2013 #181

Individualism is about the personal choices you get to make. Feminism concerns itself with societal bettyellen Apr 2013 #210

You couldn't be further away from truth. Not that I am surprised. idwiyo Apr 2013 #223

when you prattle on about your individual relationships with men, it's individualism... bettyellen Apr 2013 #228

Here we go again. Can you actually hold a conversation without dictating what someone else should idwiyo Apr 2013 #231

not sure why you would presume to know what anyone here does in their spare time bettyellen Apr 2013 #232

25 years of activism most definitely qualifies you to lead by personal example! FEMEN needs you to idwiyo Apr 2013 #233

you might like to use DU to talk all about yourself and make up stories about others in an bettyellen Apr 2013 #234

Have a great day! :) idwiyo Apr 2013 #235

It's not correct. As with most of my detractors on the Femen issue, that person mischaracterizes nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #51

Amina flat out states she was not thrown into a psych ward. Address that. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #22

We can't trust her word. She's too oppressed. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #25

According to your belief system, what you just said was colonialism. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #27

Man, that went miles over your head. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #28

No, it didn't. I got your intended meaning. But applying what you claim is your belief system, you stevenleser Apr 2013 #33

Like a jetliner over the sea floor. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #36

You just described an undersea craft with a magnetohydrodynamic drive. And here I thought I was stevenleser Apr 2013 #43

Barking up the wrong tree with your wiki searching. My username is there for a reason. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #53

I thought your username was just more Wharrgarbl like your attacks on Femen nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #61

I already have in multiple OPs. See my #16 above. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #26

Femen is like that Quron Burning Guy in the United States , of course they have a right to protest JI7 Apr 2013 #48

Actually, not like that guy at all, just the opposite Coyotl Apr 2013 #125

K&R! n/t DeSwiss Apr 2013 #52

Epic debate going on here Shankapotomus Apr 2013 #72

Agreed. Deep13 Apr 2013 #85

Wow, very well put! stevenleser Apr 2013 #87

Equality does not mean monolithism. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #89

Of course they are within their rights to protest BainsBane Apr 2013 #94

And just like many Muslim women have the right to agree with them. stevenleser Apr 2013 #95

Look at these Tunisian women BainsBane Apr 2013 #102

I wasn't specifically referring to Tunisia. I'm well aware Sharia isnt law in Tunisia YET. stevenleser Apr 2013 #105

If you aren't talking specifically about Tunisia BainsBane Apr 2013 #109

I'll say it again since Femen detractors seem to love to mischaracterize and misquote. stevenleser Apr 2013 #111

How do you know what these Muslim women want? BainsBane Apr 2013 #118

FEMEN actually said that women talk too much? Where? idwiyo Apr 2013 #122

They marched into a woman's conference BainsBane Apr 2013 #154

Quote: "The argument was that the experts talk too much and do too little." That's not what you said idwiyo Apr 2013 #156

google the event BainsBane Apr 2013 #158

YOU made a dishonest statement, YOU provided me with a proof of your dishonesty and its my fault? idwiyo Apr 2013 #161

The statement is not dishonest BainsBane Apr 2013 #163

Wtf? Where did you come up with all that? nt. polly7 Apr 2013 #164

This wouldn't be the first time this poster makes dishonest statements. Its kind of amusing really. idwiyo Apr 2013 #168

Yeah, I know. polly7 Apr 2013 #170

ROFTLOL, THAT is absolutely hillarious. She definitely should get a point for "creativity". idwiyo Apr 2013 #173

+100! n/t zappaman Apr 2013 #176

educate you? BainsBane Apr 2013 #187

This message was self-deleted by its author polly7 Apr 2013 #188

It's not a lie when I didn't recall BainsBane Apr 2013 #190

This message was self-deleted by its author polly7 Apr 2013 #191

LOL! polly7 Apr 2013 #192

Accoding to the evidence YOU provided they did not say what you claim they did. idwiyo Apr 2013 #165

Of course its dishonest. FEMEN said EXPERTS, you insist they said WOMEN. idwiyo Apr 2013 #174

okay, so your complaint BainsBane Apr 2013 #193

Out of your entire post only 2 sentences are correct. Rest of it is dishonest bullshit. See below. idwiyo Apr 2013 #197

A lot of the FEMEN people are Muslim women. Deep13 Apr 2013 #114

A lot? BainsBane Apr 2013 #117

From their own website, one person out of hundreds of photos. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #130

noticed that, have you? i did too. the same few people show up all over europe. i wonder where HiPointDem Apr 2013 #133

An interesting comment: polly7 Apr 2013 #145

In fairness, Muslim women openly supporting Femen would probably be placing themselves in danger, Zorra Apr 2013 #149

Muslim women would be in danger BainsBane Apr 2013 #150

Or Iraq? Or Saudi Arabia? polly7 Apr 2013 #151

Another totally dishonest personal attack post, ignoring the content of my post. Tsk tsk ~ Zorra Apr 2013 #172

LOL BainsBane Apr 2013 #175

The truth is, I feel no need to defend my POV to you. Zorra Apr 2013 #177

Aliaa Magda Elmahdy would defintely disagree with you. I am sure you know who I am talking about. idwiyo Apr 2013 #180

All right, it's just the impression I have... Deep13 Apr 2013 #218

I looked through their entire site BainsBane Apr 2013 #219

It is very apparent that you simply wish to believe that we lowly DUers can't be bothered Zorra Apr 2013 #230

LOL Capt. Obvious Dec 2013 #236

"thrown into the psych ward" = lie. "threats by various political factions in her country to have HiPointDem Apr 2013 #128

I honestly can't believe this guy has a radio show. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #129

femen is being touted by a lot of middle east hawks; they cheered on the pnac coups too. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #134

Interesting. Could you please post a link to the source of that information? Zorra Apr 2013 #146

I mean the hawks on this board. Many of the same people taking the hard line on Iran and HiPointDem Apr 2013 #215

Really? Are any posting in this thread? nt Zorra Apr 2013 #226

The more I read about them BainsBane Apr 2013 #185

I don't find it suprising BainsBane Apr 2013 #184

It's not a real radio show, it's blogtalkradio. MadrasT Apr 2013 #186

Ah so it's like a podcast? Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #189

gotcha BainsBane Apr 2013 #194

Here is my PM to Steven: Zorra Apr 2013 #198

Cool story. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #199

It is a very cool story, and a very true story. Zorra Apr 2013 #201

Here's one I particularly enjoyed: Zorra Apr 2013 #202

Yeah, ground breaking stuff... Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #204

Aww, you don't like what was said? Zorra Apr 2013 #205

He slam dunks the easy arguments. Yet cannot appreciate more complex... Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #206

Complex issues such as marriage, you mean? nt Zorra Apr 2013 #207

Complex issues like female agency. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #208

That's a really difficult concept for most men to feel and grasp, bro. Zorra Apr 2013 #209

Very cool! :) idwiyo Apr 2013 #224

+1 Totally agree with everything you said. idwiyo Apr 2013 #203

Right on. Coyotl Apr 2013 #213

Leaving such untruths unedited speaks volumes. nt redqueen Apr 2013 #144

This info was in a previous thread on DU Coyotl Apr 2013 #211

"Steve missed that post". Zorra Apr 2013 #225

See posts 9 & 16 from Thursday. redqueen Apr 2013 #229

Like, maybe, Steve is no longer reading this thread. It's just a forum Coyotl Apr 2013 #227

REALLY? Interesting. Why do so many sources indicate that these statements are, apparently, TRUE? Zorra Apr 2013 #148

because they all have the same source for that factoid: femen's Inna Shevchenko. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #152

Can you disprove it? nt Zorra Apr 2013 #155

That appears to be true regarding her being in a psychiatric hospital, Zorra Apr 2013 #159

That is false according to her lawyer. Coyotl Apr 2013 #212

Thanks, I assume you are referring to Amina going to the psych ward? Zorra Apr 2013 #214

no. The internationally-known female Tunisian civil rights lawyer who represents amina didn't HiPointDem Apr 2013 #216

'appears to be true'. can you cite someone besides femen on that? Bouchra Hamida is an inter- HiPointDem Apr 2013 #217

What I was saying is that what you posted about her not being in the psych ward appears to be true. Zorra Apr 2013 #220

I heard two different stories attributed to her about their "kidnapping" too bettyellen Apr 2013 #171

According to Dear Leader himself something did happen. He is positively bursting with desire to say idwiyo Apr 2013 #222