General Discussion

Zorra

(27,670 posts)

104. We had this exact same problem with Occupy protests. No matter how simple or obvious

Sat Apr 13, 2013, 11:15 AM

Apr 2013

we tried to make our point, some people couldn't, or wouldn't, get it. Most often, I believe they wouldn't get it because they didn't like what we were trying to do, we were challenging their dearly held beliefs, so they tried to derail our message, either deliberately, or subconsciously because the cognitive dissonance between our message and their dearly held beliefs was too much for them to process.

Some people will waste their time trying to make a complex issue out of a simple statement like "The sky is blue", if it somehow conflicts with their dearly held beliefs. It appears that conservatives are particularly prone to cognitive dissonance.

I'm pretty sure most everyone here understands what Amina meant by "Fuck Your Morals", especially given the context that she was threatened with death by theocratic fascists, and that her cousin broke her cell phone and beat her for protesting.

Some with a vested interests in derailing messages of protest groups that challenge the status quo, particularly those with economic, religious, or ego driven vested interests, will very often deliberately attempt to derail the simple messages of groups challenging the status quo, sometimes even for some type of compensation.

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Topless Tunisian Activist Amina Tyler: 'Femen Are True Feminists But They Have Insulted Muslims' [View all] kwassa Apr 2013 OP

A very complex issue. nt ZombieHorde Apr 2013 #1

but there's no reason to suspect coercion, right? Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #2

and do you have any proof of any kind of such coercion? kwassa Apr 2013 #3

nah. i just ask the questions.. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #4

+1 nt Deep13 Apr 2013 #201

also i run across this kind of stuff.. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #5

yeah, but are her parents fundamentalists? kwassa Apr 2013 #6

true they haven't stoned her.. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #7

i don't think she ever said "fuck the koran" and she is still saying she fears for her life JI7 Apr 2013 #10

She was beaten by a relative and her phone smashed over it The Straight Story Apr 2013 #20

what is your source for this? kwassa Apr 2013 #23

See my next post (nt) The Straight Story Apr 2013 #25

More: The Straight Story Apr 2013 #24

thanks for the link. kwassa Apr 2013 #71

great link - thanks RainDog Apr 2013 #78

Guess it won't matter. She showed her boobs and insulted some in islam The Straight Story Apr 2013 #80

I can simplify the whole thing RainDog Apr 2013 #85

if she was being coerced why would she still defend what she did and even continue JI7 Apr 2013 #9

well considering she had the words 'fuck the koran' painted on her chest.. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #11

there is no about face , and when did she say "fuck the koran" ? she is still defending JI7 Apr 2013 #12

yeh and so was what she *did* .. was insulting to muslims.. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #14

oh please, this is like saying one is attacking christians if they criticize Fred Phelps or Robertso JI7 Apr 2013 #16

no she said 'fuck your morals' naked. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #18

this is just ignorant, you think Fred Phelps represents all Christians ? Obama must want gays to die JI7 Apr 2013 #21

i made perfectly clear that i was talking about fundies if you want to deflect.. deflect.. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #28

i'm an atheist also, but i can still see people for themselves JI7 Apr 2013 #32

i can see people for themselves too.. and nobody deserves a pedestal. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #41

so she can't disagree with anything they do ? she said she herself does not JI7 Apr 2013 #48

oh she *can* disagree.. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #61

She talks about wanting to leave Tunisia as soon as possible - and that's coerced too? bettyellen Apr 2013 #161

OK. That's just nutty. First of all no is claiming all Muslims are the same. cali Apr 2013 #122

she went nowhere near as far as Femen does at mosques in Paris, they HATE Islam.... bettyellen Apr 2013 #159

no she didn't. it was 'fuck your morals'. nothing about the koran. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #97

same difference. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #99

only if you're illiterate. HiPointDem Apr 2013 #114

"fuck the koran" is same difference as "fuck your morals"? that's the stupidest thing you wrote CreekDog Apr 2013 #119

Maybe it was "Fuck the Qur'an" that turned her off them BainsBane Apr 2013 #165

What you have done is proven she is being coerced. The 180 degree turn she has now made is proof. stevenleser Apr 2013 #8

Or maybe she was coerced to take off her top to begin with R B Garr Apr 2013 #13

Which group has a track record of coercion, and which does not? N.T. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2013 #109

She says FEMEN are real feminists. Comrade Grumpy Apr 2013 #15

You've reduced the legitimacy of her argument to your preconceived narrative. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #26

How is that working out for you? stevenleser Apr 2013 #214

I don't see any proof of coercion. It is not an 180 degree turn. kwassa Apr 2013 #50

let's see. She says she's been kidnapped by her family. She has no indepependent means of cali Apr 2013 #169

Right? It's not hard to see what the deal is here. stevenleser Apr 2013 #184

there are people in this thread trying to spin the facts in the most contemptible way cali Apr 2013 #193

So, because she disagrees with you, she's being forced? Scootaloo Apr 2013 #183

How is that working out for you? stevenleser Apr 2013 #208

+1 and fuck the tortured, sick "logic" cali Apr 2013 #210

All the folks who criticized us here owe us an apology. I'm not holding my breath. stevenleser Apr 2013 #211

I'm sure that images like this may have led to her turnaround Number23 Apr 2013 #17

Disgusting? It's awesome! MellowDem Apr 2013 #22

so you think this is awesome also ? JI7 Apr 2013 #29

No, what a horrible red herring... MellowDem Apr 2013 #60

i'm very criticial of ISlam , i think it's stupid when someone feels the need to bring JI7 Apr 2013 #70

You are one of those people who do not understand the difference between criticism and hate speech. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #30

That was hate speech? morningfog Apr 2013 #31

looks very much like the anti arab stuff i see from the right JI7 Apr 2013 #35

Is that hate speech, though? morningfog Apr 2013 #36

when does hate speech imply it should not be permitted ? have you seen the tea bagger protests ? JI7 Apr 2013 #43

Who defines what "hate speech" is... MellowDem Apr 2013 #67

Did you finally manage to learn the difference between Islam and Islamism? idwiyo Apr 2013 #181

Clearly that image goes beyond criticism of Islam... Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #27

How would you describe this one? polly7 Apr 2013 #33

I feel that the man in the photo should probably be castrated. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #40

I hope you aren't serious. morningfog Apr 2013 #46

I'm not. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #74

No. polly7 Apr 2013 #51

Yes, that was hyperbole on my part. Maybe he should just be kicked really hard in the groin. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #53

That is in front of a mosque as an old fart tries kicking for the first time in decades. Coyotl Apr 2013 #95

Explain the divide. How is it hate speech? morningfog Apr 2013 #39

It's a racist physical caricature of Arab men. The equivelant of black face. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #45

Is that hate speech? Offensive does not equal hate speech. morningfog Apr 2013 #49

It is in fact the very definition of hate speech. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #52

No it isn't. morningfog Apr 2013 #54

Yes, it is. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #57

What violence is provoked other than the assholes who like to kill morningfog Apr 2013 #68

Violent outcome is not necessitated for hate speech. It is simply a possible outcome. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #73

absolute bullshit. ugh. cali Apr 2013 #124

No, it's a caricature of Iranian mullahs.... MellowDem Apr 2013 #84

I think you've made it pretty clear that you hate Muslims. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #86

Wow, so I hate Muslims because you suck at arguing your points? MellowDem Apr 2013 #89

we could start with that hate filled post that was hidden... Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #91

It was hidden, but not hate filled... MellowDem Apr 2013 #107

Your God complex is adorable. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #117

What makes you think I think of myself as a god? MellowDem Apr 2013 #123

God complex does not mean you think you are a God Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #136

Ascribing godlike qualities to myself like "infallibility"... MellowDem Apr 2013 #140

I am not having a discussion with you. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #143

Obviously, you're a bully... MellowDem Apr 2013 #150

... Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #154

Yes, well Gravitycollapse's Guide to Proper Ladylike Protests is THE book! riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #157

awww i have a stalker. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #158

Nothing cute about anti-free speech, anti-women shit. riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #160

It's always funny when people confuse dissent with anti-free-speech. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #163

Someone challenging you is not stalking. Don't like it? Don't post on a discussion board. cali Apr 2013 #170

twigs don't count as sticks snooper2 Apr 2013 #156

"that image doesn't just insult Muslims. It is insulting to Arabic people in general." Number23 Apr 2013 #62

Uhh, how? MellowDem Apr 2013 #83

"It's a caricature of Iranian mullahs" Number23 Apr 2013 #92

Sharia law is heavily associated with Iran... MellowDem Apr 2013 #105

Sharia law is used throughout many Islamic countries and is not "associated" with only one country Number23 Apr 2013 #120

So what if it is offensive. That is the point. morningfog Apr 2013 #34

I'm sure your post was a slam dunk in your head Number23 Apr 2013 #56

She offended. She got offended. People take themselves and their myths too seriously. morningfog Apr 2013 #64

As some people do that with trolling. Number23 Apr 2013 #66

Is that how you end discussions? morningfog Apr 2013 #69

Yep. Especially when it's obvious the person is just trying to start shit Number23 Apr 2013 #72

She is under duress. She says she was beaten and kidnapped. Gad, what part of any of that is cali Apr 2013 #172

You're one to ask about a lack of understanding. Number23 Apr 2013 #175

I didn't say it wasn't offensive to some people. I do say it's not hate speech cali Apr 2013 #176

And where did *I* say it was hate speech? Number23 Apr 2013 #178

was this piss christ done in a protest claiming to support Christians ? JI7 Apr 2013 #180

uh, that is utterly irrelevant. yikes. critical thinking. try it. cali Apr 2013 #191

no it isn't, that's why i can see the difference between JI7 Apr 2013 #195

No, it was fundie asshole family members kidnapping her & beating the shit out of her. backscatter712 Apr 2013 #94

Feminists should insult bigoted misogynist religions... MellowDem Apr 2013 #19

are there only Atheist Feminists ? JI7 Apr 2013 #37

No, there are religions that aren't misogynistic... MellowDem Apr 2013 #47

it's dishonest to say Amina was protesting against religion itself JI7 Apr 2013 #55

I didn't say she was... nt MellowDem Apr 2013 #76

"They have insulted Muslims" Quantess Apr 2013 #38

My sentiments exactly. Some day those Muslims who get offended by living in this century morningfog Apr 2013 #44

Exactly!!!!! get the red out Apr 2013 #177

+100. nt Skip Intro Apr 2013 #63

Thank you. GoneOffShore Apr 2013 #106

Also, from the the article you linked: Does she support femen? The Straight Story Apr 2013 #42

yeah, but according to some she is being coerced to say that JI7 Apr 2013 #58

Yes, she does. kwassa Apr 2013 #59

based on everything she has done and said i think i understand her JI7 Apr 2013 #65

It is tough to get much nuance in 3-word slogans painted on the body. Reductio ad absurdum. kwassa Apr 2013 #77

This is a problem theorized about quite a bit in academia. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #81

"Fuck Your Morals" is particularly inscrutable. kwassa Apr 2013 #87

Are you a Professor of Women's Studies, or something similar, at a University? nt Zorra Apr 2013 #101

I am not a professor. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #167

We had this exact same problem with Occupy protests. No matter how simple or obvious Zorra Apr 2013 #104

Actually, no, I still don't know what "Fuck your morals" means. All the Femen protesters seem to use kwassa Apr 2013 #108

In a nutshell, Femen does not want religions, and religon controlled states or persons, Zorra Apr 2013 #111

I don't understand how you cannot know what they're saying. It couldn't be clearer. cali Apr 2013 #125

What on earth is clear about it? Who are they addressing when it is written in English? kwassa Apr 2013 #129

I don't continue discouses with people who or either deliberately obtuse or cali Apr 2013 #134

Bye! Suit yourself. kwassa Apr 2013 #138

Uhm, see post #111? Zorra's has spelled it out for you? riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #141

Are you by any chance a fundamentalist evangelical Christian? nt Zorra Apr 2013 #144

not even close. kwassa Apr 2013 #145

Next guess: Lifetime practicing Catholic born into the Church? nt Zorra Apr 2013 #147

You're getting colder. kwassa Apr 2013 #148

Last guess, I promise: Practicing liberal Protestant? Zorra Apr 2013 #152

Bingo! kwassa Apr 2013 #153

You are obviously religious, and I was thinking that you are experiencing cognitive dissonance in Zorra Apr 2013 #155

"Cognitive dissonance" seems to be the buzz phrase of the past couple weeks. kwassa Apr 2013 #162

It's called context. simple really. cali Apr 2013 #173

You really don't understand? That's sad. Seriously sad. Unless of course it's deliberate... idwiyo Apr 2013 #186

See post #104. Zorra Apr 2013 #133

well said. I am now backing out of this thread or to put it another way cali Apr 2013 #135

That should make this thread a little saner. kwassa Apr 2013 #139

no. it is your presence here and your Orwellian take on this situation cali Apr 2013 #174

Also, in the title of the OP. Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #103

This version of Amina's interview with CANAL+ is more clear. kwassa Apr 2013 #75

Thanks for this one, too RainDog Apr 2013 #79

"My cousin broke my cell phone and beat me." Amina's body must be a serious source of Zorra Apr 2013 #82

Her father is much more supportive than her cousin. From the same interview: kwassa Apr 2013 #88

Imagine being in a culture where a girl thinks she is lucky... Marrah_G Apr 2013 #102

I believe that I would either have escaped to France by the age of 12, Zorra Apr 2013 #127

Novak was so culturally clueless RainDog Apr 2013 #90

Frank, on the other hand was acutely...microscopically, you might say...aware of culture. nt Zorra Apr 2013 #96

i haven't been able to find the full video anywhere. all the full videos on youtube say HiPointDem Apr 2013 #98

Here's one of about 6 minutes muriel_volestrangler Apr 2013 #100

Yes... this article is more clear and accurate. Thanks n/t Catherina Apr 2013 #113

Post removed Post removed Apr 2013 #93

There should be no surprise here... rexcat Apr 2013 #110

The video in post 100 does not support the author's assertion Catherina Apr 2013 #112

That isn't the flag that they burned Luminous Animal Apr 2013 #115

Yeah you're right about the flag though they're both from the same family Catherina Apr 2013 #118

Protesters in other cities did write Amina on their bodies, or held up signs with her name. kwassa Apr 2013 #116

So what's your point? We know they were protesting in solidarity with Amina riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #121

My point is that she was essentially correct in saying that protesters were painting her name kwassa Apr 2013 #126

She couldn't more clearly be under duress and that includes duress from her father cali Apr 2013 #128

Duress from her father? and where do you have the slightest proof of that? kwassa Apr 2013 #130

It's right there. cali Apr 2013 #131

You read more into parts of that interview than I see there. kwassa Apr 2013 #137

wow. would it make OK with if her cousin just hit her once and smashed cali Apr 2013 #171

And you're essentially saying her word can't be trusted because she might be scared. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #164

she is scared. she says she's scared. she's been beaten and threatened. fuck I hate denial and cali Apr 2013 #168

So when she says at least her father didn't "kill her", that's supportive? riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #142

"we can express ourselves in favor of women's rights" is something he also said. kwassa Apr 2013 #146

You are really working hard to make her situation okay. riderinthestorm Apr 2013 #149

No, I am just saying there is a lot we don't know. kwassa Apr 2013 #151

But liberals aren't supposed to criticize Islam get the red out Apr 2013 #179

Why are you trying to misinterpret what she actually said? idwiyo Apr 2013 #188

The way she said it in French Catherina Apr 2013 #132

It's important to note that these protesters are completely missusing the term Jihad... Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #166

How are they misusing it? idwiyo Apr 2013 #189

I think a better question is how are they using it correctly? Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #190

As you are the one who said FEMEN is misusing the term, its up to you to explain why. idwiyo Apr 2013 #198

I just gave you the most fundamental reason. They aren't Muslim. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #199

Muslims are the only ones who are allowed to use that word? Is this a new universal law? idwiyo Apr 2013 #200

Non-Muslims cannot wage Jihad. Unless definitions and histories do not matter to you. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #202

Literal meaning of Arabic word "jihad" is "struggle" Anyone can use that word in any language idwiyo Apr 2013 #205

FEMEN's usage of "Jihad" is in direct reference to the Islam they protest. Gravitycollapse Apr 2013 #206

Read my post above for the definition and usage of word "jihad". BTW, did you finally manage idwiyo Apr 2013 #207

Thank you for the translation. idwiyo Apr 2013 #187

Excuse me Shankapotomus Apr 2013 #182

A Western libertarian insults a Muslim Coyotl Apr 2013 #185

Just some more input from Muslim women for anyone interested. redqueen Apr 2013 #192

I didn't read the second article but my problem with the first cali Apr 2013 #194

are you talking about the head covering ? it is a choice in TUnisia and europe JI7 Apr 2013 #196

No I'm not. cali Apr 2013 #197

There is a difference between insulting Muslims and insulting Islam. Deep13 Apr 2013 #203

In your post #75 you provide a link to an article you think is more clear. Why don't you add it to idwiyo Apr 2013 #204

How is that working out for you? stevenleser Apr 2013 #209

Just fine. How is working out for you? kwassa Apr 2013 #212

Great, because I turned out to be right! nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #213