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billh58

(6,655 posts)

181. Like the NRA, you are

Reply to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #178)

Thu Apr 18, 2013, 03:27 PM

Apr 2013

perpetuating the false premise that there is some sort of a "war" going on against ALL gun owners, and that ALL gun owners are being attacked and falsely accused by "grabbers." You are furthering the outright lies being spread by the NRA that gun registration will inevitably lead to gun confiscation. You are furthering the falsehood that Liberal Democrats who advocate for stricter gun control measures want to repeal the Second Amendment.

Nothing could be further from the truth, and you, and those who use your specious argument, know that. The enemy is the NRA, and those gun owners who adhere to the "cold dead hands" premise of Wayne LaPierre and his manufacturer puppet masters. The enemy is the gun owner who sells guns to strangers without knowing a fucking thing about them, much less performing a valid background check. The enemy is the irresponsible gun owner who doesn’t secure his or her gun and allows children or criminals access to it.

When right-wingers falsely lump ALL gun owners into the same constituency, and lie about their intentions in doing so, then they are rightly labeled Gun Humpers. When Gun Humpers use bogus "statistics" to make their false equivalency arguments, they are NOT speaking for ALL gun owners. Bottom line: ALL gun owners are NOT Gun Humpers, but Gun Humpers are ALL assholes.

Attempting to make it appear that gun control advocates are attacking ALL gun owners, is not only disingenuous, it is a right-wing straw man tactic used successfully by Grover Norquist, Karl Rove, Dubya, and other neoconservatives during their hoodwinking of the American people. The NRA and its “cold dead hands” adherents are also attempting to hoodwink the American people, but it is no longer working.

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It's very simple: If you want new gun control laws, you need the cooperation of legal gun owners. [View all] friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 OP

You don't sound so friendly to me n/t Fumesucker Apr 2013 #1

The point, however, is valid. Llewlladdwr Apr 2013 #7

Fuck the gun humpers. morningfog Apr 2013 #8

And *still* you don't get it... friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #12

Fuck the gun nuts. morningfog Apr 2013 #13

The OP refers to gun owners. darkangel218 Apr 2013 #127

They never will friendly_iconoclast. Llewlladdwr Apr 2013 #20

Sort of like you do when anyone dare to talk about white privilege? HangOnKids Apr 2013 #130

With that attitude... Lizzie Poppet Apr 2013 #111

Wrong. We need to go on the offensive against the obstructionist. morningfog Apr 2013 #135

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:Gun strokers?? Really? This kind of post is what is dividing DU and our country. Kolesar Apr 2013 #147

Nice! Perfect score. morningfog Apr 2013 #158

And yet another ad-hominem playground level taunt. Lizzie Poppet Apr 2013 #153

Yep. I've lost any and all respect for those who morningfog Apr 2013 #160

You're right in that you *are* wasting your time Kolesar Apr 2013 #165

Yes, the jury system is a broken joke. Lizzie Poppet Apr 2013 #168

tears? ... eom Kolesar Apr 2013 #169

Plenty of those flowing, it seems. Lizzie Poppet Apr 2013 #170

Good luck with that NickB79 Apr 2013 #171

Thanks for your support. morningfog Apr 2013 #182

"You have to blow us just right, or else we might let another crazy guy Arkana Apr 2013 #188

Nice strawman. Does it keep the crows away from your garden? Lizzie Poppet Apr 2013 #190

Oh, very nice. You've been following me around, I see. Arkana Apr 2013 #191

So you respond out of the blue to my post, and I'm following YOU around? Lizzie Poppet Apr 2013 #192

Read the OP--how, exactly, am I "making shit up"? Arkana Apr 2013 #193

You attributed to others something neither said nor implied, that's how. Lizzie Poppet Apr 2013 #194

Surely there is some middle ground sylvi Apr 2013 #292

+1000 billh58 Apr 2013 #129

"The tide is turning". True- just not in the direction you believe it is. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #167

Continue to cling billh58 Apr 2013 #175

So what are your plans for 2015? How's that effort to win hearts and minds amongst... friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #178

Like the NRA, you are billh58 Apr 2013 #181

Your revisionism is as obvious as it is ahistorical. All gun owners were attacked here on DU... friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #197

Those remarks are not billh58 Apr 2013 #211

Then get serious about splitting the reasonable gun owners from the NRA, FFS. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #245

We attempted to start billh58 Apr 2013 #248

If you give on registration, you'll *get* universal background checks. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #251

Nope. billh58 Apr 2013 #253

I suppose you don't hold with the aphorism: The perfect is the enemy of the good... friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #254

Not looking for perfect. billh58 Apr 2013 #255

Then start by getting what you *can* get, and work up from that. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #256

Pretense of moral and intellectual superiority? EOTE Apr 2013 #183

Good luck persuading 20-25% of the electorate with THAT attitude. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #199

Again, it's not how I think, it's what I know. EOTE Apr 2013 #206

I prefer the term "ghoul".. Fumesucker Apr 2013 #25

Zenger. Chan790 Apr 2013 #27

Capital sermon, Reverend Sunday: friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #76

It doesn't really bother gun owners to be called names as much as you think. ... spin Apr 2013 #80

You are contradicting yourself marions ghost Apr 2013 #116

People aren't denouncing gun owners BainsBane Apr 2013 #81

I'm not demanding you shut up, I'm asking you to reconsider your failed approach. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #86

Hello . . . ? BainsBane Apr 2013 #88

Yes, cultural warfare. You need to reread the posts of some the more "vigorous" advocates... friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #91

So fucking what? BainsBane Apr 2013 #93

You might have gotten somewhere if you'd not treated this as a Crusade. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #95

A crusade? BainsBane Apr 2013 #105

It's not the different opinions that turn pro-rights advocates off Nuclear Unicorn Apr 2013 #185

If it was off the table... WinniSkipper Apr 2013 #117

Many gun owners support traceability and registration. cbrer Apr 2013 #2

I know a lot of gun owners and I don't know a single one that ... spin Apr 2013 #99

Well that figures, billh58 Apr 2013 #298

Gun violence in Florida is at an all time low. ... spin Apr 2013 #300

Yep, there's that billh58 Apr 2013 #301

While more guns may not equal less crime ... spin Apr 2013 #302

What would registration accomplish? GreenStormCloud Apr 2013 #136

actually wouldn't that work for straw purchases? booley Apr 2013 #176

Guns can already be traced to the original purchaser. GreenStormCloud Apr 2013 #234

Registration can help solve crimes cbrer Apr 2013 #180

How can registration leave such a trail? GreenStormCloud Apr 2013 #233

Because it isn't a black and white issue cbrer Apr 2013 #235

Oh gees.... defacto7 Apr 2013 #3

I don't own a gun. I'm just sick of watching Third Way/DLC types charging headlong into defeat... friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #9

If I misunderstand your OP defacto7 Apr 2013 #19

It's no threat; we just saw the "all or nothing" approach produce, well....nothing friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #73

This message was self-deleted by its author defacto7 Apr 2013 #51

we hurt their widdle feelings Skittles Apr 2013 #83

^^^This^^^ GCP Apr 2013 #85

You're so cute when you're angry... friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #94

Agreed, and it's a bit of a surprise. Lizzie Poppet Apr 2013 #112

I AM ALWAYS CUTE Skittles Apr 2013 #201

Aww, someone has a sad... friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #243

You hurt whos feelings? darkangel218 Apr 2013 #128

OHHHH Skittles Is SO Mean HangOnKids Apr 2013 #131

How are you going to get any gun control law to pass with that attitude? nt darkangel218 Apr 2013 #133

My disagreeing that Skittles is mean is an impediment to gun control? HangOnKids Apr 2013 #137

Thats not the message of my post. you try again darkangel218 Apr 2013 #138

"We" all want the same thing? HangOnKids Apr 2013 #141

United States of America. darkangel218 Apr 2013 #142

Did you pay attention to the vote yesterday? HangOnKids Apr 2013 #151

Well they dont represent me, or anyone i know. darkangel218 Apr 2013 #156

Get off the "hate and name calling" meme HangOnKids Apr 2013 #177

Ba bye. darkangel218 Apr 2013 #186

The problem was the bill that failed today was written by gun owners so that doesn't fly Arcanetrance Apr 2013 #4

Fuck em. We'll win eventually. Their attitude is selfish and blocks progress. morningfog Apr 2013 #5

"we" and "they" is what blocks progress. darkangel218 Apr 2013 #139

The extremist gun nuts who block everything are morningfog Apr 2013 #143

Okay, but dont include all gun owners under that umbrella darkangel218 Apr 2013 #146

80% of NRA members isn't enough? hepkat Apr 2013 #6

Gun nut assholes want to convince you that making no laws is the best way alcibiades_mystery Apr 2013 #10

The universal background checks I and lots of others want got defeated too. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #17

And you're not going to change attitudes WinniSkipper Apr 2013 #35

Because only about 4% of that 90% actually care enough to base their vote on it? Llewlladdwr Apr 2013 #15

I know that. That's my point. hepkat Apr 2013 #22

You're using Limbaugh's twisted version of a poll. Noted. Telling. DisgustipatedinCA Apr 2013 #56

I'm using a Gallup poll. Llewlladdwr Apr 2013 #58

And Gallup deliberately skews Right, because the Right pays for the desired results. Ikonoklast Apr 2013 #121

Just as a Frank Luntz poll skews Left lately- because that's who is currently employing him. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #200

B.S. elleng Apr 2013 #11

+1 Euphoria Apr 2013 #14

Apparently the people don't. Llewlladdwr Apr 2013 #32

Contacting members is not part of the fabric of the U.S., unfortunately, elleng Apr 2013 #42

In other words, most people don't really care about passing new gun laws. Llewlladdwr Apr 2013 #59

No, they care, they don't know how it works, elleng Apr 2013 #60

This message was self-deleted by its author Orsino Apr 2013 #119

Or, do what these guys advise Lady Freedom Returns Apr 2013 #16

People generally get the Congress they want... badtoworse Apr 2013 #34

We can still fight for it! Lady Freedom Returns Apr 2013 #44

That is happening on both sides of this issue badtoworse Apr 2013 #50

I do not believe that Jenoch Apr 2013 #39

This just goes to show what contacting your officials can do. Lady Freedom Returns Apr 2013 #48

He Had a Pet Congress Macoy51 Apr 2013 #102

Bingo! zipplewrath Apr 2013 #115

Don't fall for misinformation. Although IDK if you want to hear differently: freshwest Apr 2013 #226

And you'll get that by giving away Red State Dem seats to the GOP? NickB79 Apr 2013 #173

I wish they would have started with that attitude kudzu22 Apr 2013 #18

Nonsense hepkat Apr 2013 #26

So why weren't expanded background checks passed back then? Llewlladdwr Apr 2013 #38

I think by the time Toomey-Manchin came up kudzu22 Apr 2013 #126

Starting with a sweeping ban, and ending with a patched-up B.G. check doomed both. Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #215

LOL. "Dear NRA, what can we do that you'll support?" DanTex Apr 2013 #114

It's called a dialog kudzu22 Apr 2013 #125

NRA's response: You could offer MORE GUNS! We suppor that! MillennialDem Apr 2013 #159

Too late for that Supersedeas Apr 2013 #122

What about the language Shankapotomus Apr 2013 #21

What about the language ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #36

Why do you say Shankapotomus Apr 2013 #37

Speaking only for myself, Jenoch Apr 2013 #41

And what makes you think his Shankapotomus Apr 2013 #47

Actually it does not work out as claimed ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #72

Because as a practical matter they make almost no difference ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #49

Do you think those videos Shankapotomus Apr 2013 #229

Having taught firearms and also used them in combat, they are realistic for what they depict, that ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #231

Changing a magazine is easy and fast. GreenStormCloud Apr 2013 #236

I understand what you're saying Shankapotomus Apr 2013 #238

If you want the banks to change their structure to be safer and more supportive BlueStreak Apr 2013 #23

Bank CEOs make up what percentage of the electorate, again? friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #46

Wayne LaPierre makes up what percentage of the electorate, again? BlueStreak Apr 2013 #54

When the membership of the largest gun-control advocacy .org outnumbers the NRA by 80:1... friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #77

The real NRA membersip is about 10 BlueStreak Apr 2013 #107

The +/- 4 million people on their membership rolls might disagree with you. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #154

Something like 30, I think, if by "Wayne LaPierre" you mean "gun owners". N.T. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2013 #78

And virtually all of those 80 million are going to get to keep their guns. nomorenomore08 Apr 2013 #24

That is something to celebrate badtoworse Apr 2013 #40

If. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #28

We already put that meme to bed tonight. It was the need to get 60 votes not lack of gun owner upaloopa Apr 2013 #29

What delicate little flowers the gun nuts are mwrguy Apr 2013 #30

we have *that*. what we *need* is.. Phillip McCleod Apr 2013 #31

Because yes, if we didn't browbeat gun owners this would have passed tonight - oh wait, no it wouldn MillennialDem Apr 2013 #33

The other issue is that some states/regions have a strong gun culture tabbycat31 Apr 2013 #43

You mean the ones that are lying about background checks? neverforget Apr 2013 #45

Much truth in your views. Prohibition ALWAYS takes on a hateful approach... Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #52

I have nothing but contempt for the National Republican Armory, and have enough history here at DU.. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #75

It's very simple DonCoquixote Apr 2013 #53

+1000. nt laundry_queen Apr 2013 #55

Getting rid of slavery required a civil war and the deaths of 600,000 to 700,000 Americans. Llewlladdwr Apr 2013 #57

You're saying it wasn't worth it in the long run? Really, you're playing that card? Electric Monk Apr 2013 #66

Yes, those poor, poor slaveholders who had the "hell" of their slaves liberated from their clutches apocalypsehow Apr 2013 #69

From your cold dead hands...but only if necessary. nt jmg257 Apr 2013 #123

The civil war had to happen DonCoquixote Apr 2013 #223

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #108

Your analogy stinks sylvi Apr 2013 #285

If you do not take responsibility DonCoquixote Apr 2013 #287

That's a separate issue sylvi Apr 2013 #288

That's a separate issue DonCoquixote Apr 2013 #289

As opposed to your over simplification? sylvi Apr 2013 #290

Well, that's vile. Senators who just shot down background checks are bloody handed cowards. Hekate Apr 2013 #61

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #62

Interesting you left out the 1st Amendment BainsBane Apr 2013 #65

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #67

Interdasting, indede. PeaceNikki Apr 2013 #68

You ignore the point the gun lobby BainsBane Apr 2013 #70

Bennet & Udall Are Spineless POS otohara Apr 2013 #63

Have you been paying attention? BainsBane Apr 2013 #64

I didn't know Wayne LaPierre was allowed to post here. Apophis Apr 2013 #71

You think that because I disagree with you I'm pro-NRA? How Manichaean your world is. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #74

Why did you post this OP then? BainsBane Apr 2013 #79

You lot had the chance to get substantial improvements to gun control laws- and blew it. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #82

All or nothing? BainsBane Apr 2013 #84

Ahem. I *did* and do support those background checks, and have said so here repeatedly. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #87

That has been off the table for weeks BainsBane Apr 2013 #89

No, it was separated from the main bill- but still was voted on friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #247

Maybe gun owners can stop threatening to shoot everyone they disagree with. name not needed Apr 2013 #90

All 80 million of them? Stereotype a lot, do you? friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #92

from what I have gathered from my time here mikegray Apr 2013 #98

So, in other words, appeasement. AngryOldDem Apr 2013 #96

No, figure out what we *can* get and go for it. The "all-in" approach didn't work. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #97

A 100% gun ban and mandatory confiscation was defeated in the Senate? Fumesucker Apr 2013 #101

Not looking for an "all-in" approach. AngryOldDem Apr 2013 #213

You should consider leaving the party and starting your own XRubicon Apr 2013 #100

We tried that yesterday. n/t rucky Apr 2013 #103

+1 ellisonz Apr 2013 #296

So, in true Teabagger style... 99Forever Apr 2013 #104

You obviously *didn't* have the support of 90% of the people. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #161

"I" don't have any "support," I am a private citizen. 99Forever Apr 2013 #179

They aren't ready for this advice yet. aikoaiko Apr 2013 #106

We're not ever going to be ready for this advice. Chan790 Apr 2013 #109

If you had asked, we could have told how to get the background checks passed. aikoaiko Apr 2013 #110

They fucked up the opportunity to strike a much-needed blow to the NRA. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #134

Well said and billh58 Apr 2013 #162

Most gun owners aren't gun nuts. DanTex Apr 2013 #113

Gun owners SUPPORT EXPANDED BACKGROUND CHECKS. Skinner Apr 2013 #118

Wrong. Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #124

A classroom full of slaughtered first graders tends to get normal people angry Fumesucker Apr 2013 #144

No amount of "anger" excuses the hateful attacks by some controller/banners... Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #198

Meh, I used to be a gun owner, then I wised up and realized it was just putting my family in danger Fumesucker Apr 2013 #204

The personal attacks have little effect on me as an individual... Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #214

The religionistas and the atheistas have their own protected groups Fumesucker Apr 2013 #217

I note your psychological hat & cane trick... Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #221

I think you have me confused with another poster Fumesucker Apr 2013 #224

Why don't you worry about the attacks on the Sandyhook families BainsBane Apr 2013 #230

Talk to someone else. nt Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #232

Umm, no you are wrong. DanTex Apr 2013 #148

"If not for..." Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #202

It's not speculation. It's math. DanTex Apr 2013 #205

And they're off.....! Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #210

You could make the same argument about the Koch Brothers. Just meet up and talk with them... DanTex Apr 2013 #216

And I vote for progressive "gun banners." Again... Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #218

+1 darkangel218 Apr 2013 #145

We already have the cooperation of gun owners. Orsino Apr 2013 #120

You need to work harder at splitting gun owners away from the NRA. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #149

The gun owners are a fig leaf... Orsino Apr 2013 #166

Name callers never accomplish anything in real life. former9thward Apr 2013 #132

Which part of billh58 Apr 2013 #140

The large majority of legal gun owners support the proposed law. It is the Senate filibuster pnwmom Apr 2013 #150

Then why have they not made their support clear? If even 10% did so, they would outnumber... friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #163

Actually, if you have been reading the real news, most gun owners are in favor Cleita Apr 2013 #152

And if the Pro-Choice movement wants to prevent the repeal of legal abortion, it will need the assis LanternWaste Apr 2013 #155

Lobbyist stklurker Apr 2013 #157

Bullshit. What happened was the result of right-wing lies and propaganda Hugabear Apr 2013 #164

So are gun owners morons, or delicate little flowers? jeff47 Apr 2013 #172

This message was self-deleted by its author friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #174

Rely on the fact that rational gun owners know they're not the ones we're speaking to? Arkana Apr 2013 #189

The NRA *is* larded with morons and their leadership is a third-rate clown college. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #195

No, I already asked a question. You decided to ignore it. jeff47 Apr 2013 #212

A loaded question that doesn't matter- they're a huge chunk of the electorate. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #241

Polls say that 90% of Americans are FOR more background checks... ljm2002 Apr 2013 #184

No. You know what? No. Arkana Apr 2013 #187

Good, good. Let the hate flow through you... friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #249

When? beevul Apr 2013 #257

LOL! What happened? Robb Apr 2013 #196

Youre not helping. darkangel218 Apr 2013 #203

Sarcasm? I'm *delighted* when a gun troll gets banned from DU. Robb Apr 2013 #207

I have no clue to what banned members you're referring to. darkangel218 Apr 2013 #208

What is this "we" of "what we are trying to accomplish here"? Robb Apr 2013 #209

Obviously im refering to us, American people. darkangel218 Apr 2013 #225

Yeah, Gabby Giffords doesn't own guns...oh wait, she does...your OP is shit... joeybee12 Apr 2013 #219

"most of them are just as law abiding as you are" jmg257 Apr 2013 #220

Most of us don't mind some inconvenience... Lizzie Poppet Apr 2013 #228

Almost nobody is responding to the point in the OP brooklynite Apr 2013 #240

And that is exactly billh58 Apr 2013 #246

You are threatening us with what we "have learned today". Clarify: are you against effective patrice Apr 2013 #222

What a completely asshole post. Zoeisright Apr 2013 #227

Do you think implacable hatred towards >20% of the voting-age US population is a good idea? friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #242

You are perpetuating billh58 Apr 2013 #252

Yeah, about that: "Note: ALL gun owners support the NRA" -and that's just from today at DU friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #258

One post from one billh58 Apr 2013 #259

Would you have us believe that gun control supporters on DU, such as the example he gave... beevul Apr 2013 #260

I remember you Sparky. billh58 Apr 2013 #261

Then you, apparently, misremember. beevul Apr 2013 #263

Typical Gungeoneer response. billh58 Apr 2013 #264

This message was self-deleted by its author friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #269

That is such convoluted billh58 Apr 2013 #275

Uh huh. beevul Apr 2013 #283

So when are you going to apply your own standards to the majority of American gun owners? friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #270

I already have billh58 Apr 2013 #272

"the American gun owners that I know" And therein lies a problem for you. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #274

Thanks for the advice, but billh58 Apr 2013 #276

Why not try it anyway, if only for the chance to get a lick in against the NRA? They ARE vulnerable. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #278

It seems you will not admit that the majority of gun owners *might* not agree with you. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #271

I do not billh58 Apr 2013 #273

I claim no such thing, otherwise I would not be proposing a counterweight to the NRA... friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #277

I agree with some of what you billh58 Apr 2013 #279

Your words, while wise, are falling on deaf ears. beevul Apr 2013 #237

And there you go billh58 Apr 2013 #265

Except...I wasn't. beevul Apr 2013 #284

BS, legal gun owners support more backgrounds checks. How did that work out krawhitham Apr 2013 #239

If polls are correct, we DO have their support n2doc Apr 2013 #244

Wrong. You need the gun lobby on your side Rex Apr 2013 #250

No, we don't. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #262

Then how does progress get made? WinniSkipper Apr 2013 #266

Your first sentence billh58 Apr 2013 #267

I don't presume to speak for gun owners. WinniSkipper Apr 2013 #280

First of all, yes billh58 Apr 2013 #281

Thanks for the well reasoned reply WinniSkipper Apr 2013 #291

I realize that registration billh58 Apr 2013 #293

I don't think LaPierre making a catastrophic WinniSkipper Apr 2013 #294

Kick!!!!! kelliekat44 Apr 2013 #268

Guess what? We don't need you Uzair Apr 2013 #282

As long as gun owners vote at the rate they do, you DO need them. friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #295

There's that fallacy billh58 Apr 2013 #297

If I believed that, would I be advocating splitting some of them away from the NRA? friendly_iconoclast Apr 2013 #303

A valiant effort sylvi Apr 2013 #286

Okay, well, we're waiting. Tommy_Carcetti Apr 2013 #299