General Discussion

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)

39. Both Peru and Guatemala have severely restrictive abortion laws as I'm sure you know.

Reply to meaculpa2011 (Reply #34)

Mon Feb 6, 2012, 11:20 AM

Feb 2012

Consequently many women die of botched abortions in those countries. Do you think that outlawing abortion means the incidence goes down? In fact, we know that when countries make legal abortions so difficult or completely illegal, the death rate for women goes up. That still doesn't sound very "pro life" to me either.

Furthermore, those countries that have extremely liberal abortion laws coupled with a strong safety net for families, freely available contraception, and science based sex education, they have very low rates of abortion. That appears to me to be the most "pro-life".

I can't speak to your anecdote about trying to adopt in the US but honestly, the number of children languishing in foster care and orphanages here in the US and in other countries could be COMPLETELY eliminated if all US "pro lifers" alone stepped up and adopted. Either this group agrees to takes care of all of these children THEY purportedly want born, or women deserve to have alternatives in ending an unwanted pregnancy.

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Q for �Pro-Lifers�: How many kids have you ADOPTED from [View all] ProgressiveEconomist Feb 2012 OP

a big hearty recommendation handmade34 Feb 2012 #1

Post removed Post removed Feb 2012 #29

according to anti-abortion handmade34 Feb 2012 #36

I support a woman's right to privacy and have NOT ended any lives... Spazito Feb 2012 #43

Pro Deathers? Sheepshank Feb 2012 #49

Allow me to brag. 2ndAmForComputers Feb 2012 #145

"Pro deathers"?? renie408 Feb 2012 #59

No one is pro-death, except maybe those execution-happy nutjob governors. Arkana Feb 2012 #75

it's pro-choice. you should call people you insult by the right names. spanone Feb 2012 #102

I've helped save hundreds of women's lives by assuring they didn't use a back alley abortionist, get uppityperson Feb 2012 #106

I'm pro-life/anti-abortion. I've adopted zero children. I think this is a really bad argument. Th1onein Feb 2012 #2

It's NOT a bad argument. Being pro-life means you should act on your beliefs. Zalatix Feb 2012 #3

It is a bad argument. I'm sorry, but it is. Th1onein Feb 2012 #4

So you have a business, you travel constantly, you are the sole support for your family... Zalatix Feb 2012 #7

I don't think they'd let someone who travels on a constant basis take care of a foster child Th1onein Feb 2012 #41

Oh but you ARE an excellent example of of the moral hypocrisy of anti-choicers riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #54

+1!! renie408 Feb 2012 #62

thank you. Good post. That is the gist of it. Thak you. uppityperson Feb 2012 #71

What makes you not able to understand the difference between inconvenient and impossible? Th1onein Feb 2012 #157

Are you deliberately choosing to NOT address the issue. You say it's "impossible" for you riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #158

Once AGAIN...... Th1onein Feb 2012 #161

My kid took a condom from the clinic I worked at and took it to preschool uppityperson Feb 2012 #173

I think the people who want abortion to be illegal noamnety Feb 2012 #48

Not all people who want abortion to be illegal act that way. Some do try to adopt kids. Zalatix Feb 2012 #108

Except Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #58

The FUCK? Arkana Feb 2012 #77

For anyone over the age of consent Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #82

However, the means may not be. And, again, there is always the failure rate. uppityperson Feb 2012 #89

I got pregnant on birth control. How about me? riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #90

Post removed Post removed Feb 2012 #94

You are comparing a legal medical procedure to child abuse? Seriously? uppityperson Feb 2012 #114

Post removed Post removed Feb 2012 #121

I believe a human fetus is a fetus, but that the mother's rights far outweigh it. uppityperson Feb 2012 #123

Honestly Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #128

What rights should a pregnant woman give up? uppityperson Feb 2012 #136

Condescend much? Beyond reprehensible to compare a woman's right to make a private health decision riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #129

But contraceptives may not be available. xmas74 Feb 2012 #142

Well then just say no! Don't force that baby into you by having sex you uppityperson Feb 2012 #144

I know! xmas74 Feb 2012 #153

Every type of contraception has a failure rate. Every type. Yours is not a strong argument either. uppityperson Feb 2012 #88

Yep, every type of BC has a failure rate during/after intercourse. Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #96

I've met lots of folks who say their pg was an accident and they were using contraception uppityperson Feb 2012 #103

How can "just say no" ever fail Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #105

Here are a few situations. uppityperson Feb 2012 #107

" Except for the case of rape,...." Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #110

I was expanding on what "rape" means. Let's not use that term then and try this situation. uppityperson Feb 2012 #112

I would say so Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #113

"just say no" can fail even if it actually used by the woman because the man didn't go along. uppityperson Feb 2012 #115

Then it is rape Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #118

Since you asked how just say no would fail "if actually used", that last bit is the kicker. uppityperson Feb 2012 #120

If someone believes a fetus Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #125

I know that is how some view abortion. Do you view it that way? uppityperson Feb 2012 #130

It is sad Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #135

Why should a human be killed simply because it was made without the mother's free choice? uppityperson Feb 2012 #140

But the fetus isn't a human being. And it's the woman's private decision on what she chooses to do riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #133

Sorry, you lost me at Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #139

You confuse "smarter" with "more civil". Funny way to end a discussion, take offense at a post a uppityperson Feb 2012 #143

Heh, actually I didn't tell YOU specifically to "Fuck off" riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #149

" her actions forced that human being inside her"? What? Her and HIS actions caused an egg/sperm to uppityperson Feb 2012 #134

Birth control fails- very often Tumbulu Feb 2012 #160

I have two friends, both were on the pill newspeak Feb 2012 #204

"There are just too many cheap/easy ways to avoid getting pregnant" - TBF Feb 2012 #213

If I had a baby, I could travel with my baby. Th1onein Feb 2012 #162

How many homeless people do you have living in your house? metalbot Feb 2012 #19

How much income tax do you pay? Yupster Feb 2012 #21

I admit that's a good counter. Zalatix Feb 2012 #22

No, it isn't jeff47 Feb 2012 #27

Thanks Zalatix Feb 2012 #33

Except for the fact Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #61

One can assume a lot of sex will happen, regardless of abortion's legality. jeff47 Feb 2012 #170

Fatally flawed analogy to ProgressiveEconomist Feb 2012 #24

I have taken in many homeless people Th1onein Feb 2012 #42

What about conception resulting from rape? Incest? Carolina Feb 2012 #5

Having a wife who is the product of rape, Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #63

"...I believe that life is precious..." And the woman? Is her life "precious"? Cerridwen Feb 2012 #9

Nope according to pro-lifers like this one, unless they carry the fetus to term, they are MURDERERS! riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #10

They are "murderers" or they are invisible. Cerridwen Feb 2012 #11

Nailed it REP Feb 2012 #12

Is it ethical to murder one innocent person in order to save another? Azathoth Feb 2012 #14

Or how about we get away from RW speak, and take the legal view - this as a privacy issue riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #16

Ethics and philosophy underlie a lot of laws Azathoth Feb 2012 #32

I don't see any one comment as an "argument ender". riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #40

Point taken Azathoth Feb 2012 #183

If you just take a legal view Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #64

I believe a woman's right to a private medical decision with her doctor is a moral choice riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #80

I and many Americans think of a fetus as gradually developing personhood Nikia Feb 2012 #51

I'm curious Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #99

I guess that one is now living indepedently and the other isn't Nikia Feb 2012 #127

My personal belief is that this is a real-world example of the heap paradox Azathoth Feb 2012 #175

and there are different beliefs when it is a human life newspeak Feb 2012 #60

I assume you're referring to that right-wing story floating around Azathoth Feb 2012 #174

yes, that I value my daughter, who is loved by her family newspeak Feb 2012 #205

"Murder" 2ndAmForComputers Feb 2012 #156

What should happen to a woman who drowns her two day old baby in the bathtub? Azathoth Feb 2012 #169

What doctor aborts the day before a woman would give birth? uppityperson Feb 2012 #172

That's a dodge Azathoth Feb 2012 #176

since your situation is pretty much impossible, not a dodge at all. uppityperson Feb 2012 #180

Uh, yes, it's a dodge Azathoth Feb 2012 #181

I thought you were asking if I thought it "should" be legal. According to fed law, it is but uppityperson Feb 2012 #182

My question was in response to a challenge Azathoth Feb 2012 #184

I think you are saying that there should be no abortions after 27 weeks because "the chances are uppityperson Feb 2012 #186

See my post #190. I've been distracted by other topics tonight, and work. But fyi. nt riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #191

OK. Elective abortion in the third month. Murder? Not murder? Why? 2ndAmForComputers Feb 2012 #187

Well, we have to draw a line somewhere Azathoth Feb 2012 #189

Nope, docs and ethicists are universal that "brain dead" people are fair game for termination right? riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #190

First, docs and ethicists are not universal for "termination" Azathoth Feb 2012 #200

"The only logical, morally safe conclusion is that abortion should be considered murder at any point uppityperson Feb 2012 #197

Try reading all my posts before making yourself look foolish Azathoth Feb 2012 #201

You needn't worry about MY looking foolish but thanks for your concern. uppityperson Feb 2012 #208

Of course the woman's life is precious Th1onein Feb 2012 #44

But in the end you value the blastocyst over the full grown woman. riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #55

Let's take that similar stance with the Castle Doctrine Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #66

I don't understand your post. riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #81

I'm simply pointing out Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #84

So you are saying the woman's life is worth less than the embryo. riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #86

Total miscommunication Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #87

Which is more important? My getting out of poverty and an abuse situation or the life of an embryo? uppityperson Feb 2012 #92

If you are in poverty, you shouldn't Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #95

Don't believe in abortion? Then don't have one. smokey nj Feb 2012 #98

Silly, meaningless platitude. Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #101

You find abortion to be morally questionable. I don't. smokey nj Feb 2012 #159

Just say no, eh? Here is what abusive situations, poverty, pregnancy have in common uppityperson Feb 2012 #100

If you believe a fetus is a human Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #104

A human fetus is a human. A dog fetus is a dog. A woman's rights outweigh a fetus's. uppityperson Feb 2012 #109

Thank you. renie408 Feb 2012 #122

((*)) uppityperson Feb 2012 #124

Change "abusive" to "dependent". She is dependent upon him for a place to live, food to eat, etc uppityperson Feb 2012 #154

So now you're also saying poor people shouldn't have kids??!! Really? nt riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #126

Aw, come on rider. Only people who are financially well off should have kids. The rest of us uppityperson Feb 2012 #131

Your doing better than me. I presume one of my posts upthread is going to be juried out riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #138

There is a difference Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #146

Retroactive abortion. uppityperson Feb 2012 #148

Yes because they should have had xray vision into the future! riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #151

What, in your opinion, should happen to those who cannot afford to take care of themselves and uppityperson Feb 2012 #150

What should happen to them? Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #155

NO, I don't think that. That's why I think abortion should be safe and legal. n/t renie408 Feb 2012 #152

Castles? I almost died laughing BEFORE I read your argument. Zalatix Feb 2012 #116

Why does it necessarily cost her in all of those ways? Th1onein Feb 2012 #163

It can cost her her life! You don't get to make a life and death decision for her, only she does. riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #165

Adopting a child is not an option for many people. Are they all hypocrits? Th1onein Feb 2012 #192

Wow! Just wow! Your ASSumption that anyone who gets pregnant can just simply "have" the child riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #195

Did you know that 1/3 of all pregnancies end in miscarriage? Looking at your last line, I bet you uppityperson Feb 2012 #199

No, I didn't. Neither did the Mayo Clinic Th1onein Feb 2012 #216

" But the actual number is probably much higher because many miscarriages occur so early in... uppityperson Feb 2012 #217

bearing a child is a life threatening thing to do Tumbulu Feb 2012 #167

So you're willing to create a problem, but you're not willing to do anything to help solve it? jeff47 Feb 2012 #13

But she's supporting family! And she has a great job! And travels - no time for a child now! riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #15

I find it interesting that newspeak Feb 2012 #65

What I am saying is that giving life should not be a problem in a healthy society. Th1onein Feb 2012 #45

You've admitted that a child in your life would be a problem. You want to speak in generalities riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #56

The OP spoke in generalities, as well. This is what I was responding to. Th1onein Feb 2012 #193

You made it personal. Deal with it. riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #196

++++++++++++ uppityperson Feb 2012 #198

Now, we're WAY off the topic. WOW. Th1onein Feb 2012 #215

Sorry, but your argument has already suffered a .50-caliber headshot. Zalatix Feb 2012 #117

I would not be allowed to adopt a child under my current circumstances. Th1onein Feb 2012 #164

"I would not be allowed to adopt a child under my current circumstances" was not your original Zalatix Feb 2012 #168

I'm sorry, but you are incorrect. Th1onein Feb 2012 #194

I am for the right to a legal, hygienic abortion, not "for abortion". Also anti-war, cap punishment. uppityperson Feb 2012 #119

Is there something wrong with your money? jeff47 Feb 2012 #177

If you take responsibility for forcing this "precious life" into the world... prairierose Feb 2012 #17

So, someone in prison should adopt a child? Th1onein Feb 2012 #46

No, but you don't appear to be in either category, Throckmorton Feb 2012 #53

Getting further and further away from the topic, I see. Th1onein Feb 2012 #225

So what can they do to support mothers that choose not to abort? Throckmorton Feb 2012 #226

A lot of things.... Th1onein Feb 2012 #227

So can a woman going to prison or suffering a terminal illness terminate a pregnancy riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #57

OK, so... xfundy Feb 2012 #18

A child isn't precious enough to rearrange YOUR life around, but other women should be made to do? LeftyMom Feb 2012 #23

Alas... handmade34 Feb 2012 #35

If I rearranged my life, I wouldn't be ABLE to take care of a child. Th1onein Feb 2012 #47

Don't you think pregnant women might be in the same boat? LeftyMom Feb 2012 #171

There is a difference between being allowed to adopt a child and being pregnant with a child. Th1onein Feb 2012 #219

As far as the need to rearrange their lives, they are the same. Having a child, whether by birth or uppityperson Feb 2012 #220

That much is true, but that's not the topic. Th1onein Feb 2012 #222

1 thing I'd like to see is decent affordable daycare for those who want it and better paid for provi uppityperson Feb 2012 #223

It is a wedge issue. Th1onein Feb 2012 #224

Oh, do tell? LeftyMom Feb 2012 #221

Isn't that special. Throckmorton Feb 2012 #52

No, but it's awfully irresponsible of you Arkana Feb 2012 #72

I understand your chosing to never have an abortion. Why should you limit my choice? uppityperson Feb 2012 #73

Neither did the mothers/fathers who had them. kiranon Feb 2012 #111

Well, until you and all the other "pro-lifers" in this country.... BlueDemKev Feb 2012 #132

Can I make you a few questions? 2ndAmForComputers Feb 2012 #141

K&R. nt Chorophyll Feb 2012 #6

+10000. nt riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #8

So you're actually saying that these kids in foster care Yupster Feb 2012 #20

No--NOT 'better off dead' ProgressiveEconomist Feb 2012 #25

Why don't you go start telling them Yupster Feb 2012 #30

I see. Do you agree with Newt ProgressiveEconomist Feb 2012 #67

Yep. I remember that VERY well. BlueDemKev Feb 2012 #137

No one fucking said that. You're strawmanning the hell out of the argument and you know it. Arkana Feb 2012 #74

Reread the first sentence of the second paragraph Yupster Feb 2012 #166

Your reasoning seems to suffer from a bizarre ProgressiveEconomist Feb 2012 #188

No, she's saying that if one wants to add more kids to the foster system jeff47 Feb 2012 #28

Amen my friend. Denver Progressive Feb 2012 #26

How about, just worry about your own damn body Warren DeMontague Feb 2012 #31

That's the much better argument we should be having IMHO Proud Liberal Dem Feb 2012 #37

We tried, but... meaculpa2011 Feb 2012 #34

Sounds like a wonderful life, ProgressiveEconomist Feb 2012 #38

Both Peru and Guatemala have severely restrictive abortion laws as I'm sure you know. riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #39

What a wonderful CHOICE you made. renie408 Feb 2012 #68

My wife and I, both in our fourties, had no problem adopting a child in Connecticut. Throckmorton Feb 2012 #70

Did you go through State Child ProgressiveEconomist Feb 2012 #79

State Child and Family Department Throckmorton Feb 2012 #83

Heck, I'd be happy noamnety Feb 2012 #50

I hate this subject. renie408 Feb 2012 #69

I don't think anyone should judge you either. Jennicut Feb 2012 #76

There are manymanymany reasons and the choice has to be up to the individual. uppityperson Feb 2012 #78

Thanks. renie408 Feb 2012 #85

I know. I hate these threads too. Your story is important though riderinthestorm Feb 2012 #93

All �Pro-Lifers� should support gay adoption pintobean Feb 2012 #91

And contraceptives. Don't forget contraceptives. 2ndAmForComputers Feb 2012 #147

Amen to both of those. Th1onein Feb 2012 #218

Life is precious. A fetus is not life. Taverner Feb 2012 #97

Biologists have given up on the question "What is alive?" jeff47 Feb 2012 #178

By all legitimate definitions it is life. Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #179

Go ahead and define what is alive jeff47 Feb 2012 #206

I shall defer to Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #210

No, you can't punt on the definition of life if you want to hang your anti-abortion stance on it jeff47 Feb 2012 #211

Punt? You think deferring to a referenced source Kellerfeller Feb 2012 #212

It's punting when your source doesn't actually have a definition jeff47 Feb 2012 #214

So what's your point? Renew Deal Feb 2012 #209

I wish I could rec all the pro-choice Lunacee2012 Feb 2012 #185

My biological half-brother and sister were adopted from foster care, at ages 3 and 12 respectively. moriah Feb 2012 #202

'Wish there were more like them'. Amen. ProgressiveEconomist Feb 2012 #203

Burritos are murder sudopod Feb 2012 #207