General Discussion

Kennah

(14,578 posts)

251. I am opposed to the DP, but disagree with the 100% level of proof.

Tue Apr 23, 2013, 10:19 PM

Apr 2013

Incarceration is not 100% full proof regarding the accuracy of whether someone is innocent or guilty, but we still have to have incarceration. Our criminal justice system is not 100% full proof, at any level, because it is comprised of imperfect human beings. I think it is because our system is imperfect that we cannot allow something like the DP because the DP is irreversible.

trumad, maybe I am just picking at nits, and in fact we are in complete agreement on the DP.

In all, I would say there are at least three reasons why we cannot have the DP.

1) It is vengeance, not punishment.
2) We have an imperfect system, and the use of the DP means that the system cannot make a mistake.
3) It is prohibitively expensive.

There are people who say that 97% of those accused of a crime are guilty of the crime with which they are charged or some lesser included offense. If I am generous, I could go along with the 97% metric. However, take away the DP, and simply consider incarceration. Isn't it a daunting prospect, as a juror, that there is a 3% chance the accused is being drug through a trial for a crime they did not commit, and you get to decide whether they go to jail or not.

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A Progressive Forum should never advocate the Death Penalty. [View all] trumad Apr 2013 OP

I am never okay with the taking of another human life. Terra Alta Apr 2013 #1

To me it is equally as barbaric as the crime they arthritisR_US Apr 2013 #34

The State should NEVER have the power to take life. lastlib Apr 2013 #58

^^THIS^^ BrotherIvan Apr 2013 #196

YES!!! AMEN to that! liindy Apr 2013 #249

+1000 denem Apr 2013 #260

For better or for worse, the Declaration of Independence is not law in the US. Laelth Apr 2013 #280

you are correct that the DoI is not law.... lastlib Apr 2013 #290

I have used the Declaration extensively as support in political discussions. Laelth Apr 2013 #291

And a teabagger would come back and ask why you support abortions. Common Sense Party Apr 2013 #119

You can't. No one can booley Apr 2013 #140

Good post. immoderate Apr 2013 #159

Because it's not a child. kiva Apr 2013 #160

I would tell the teabagger that life does not begin Terra Alta Apr 2013 #186

They want a sound-bite answer to a sound-bite question. I refuse to be baited. lastlib Apr 2013 #250

The death penalty is State sanctioned premeditated murder lunatica Apr 2013 #2

I agree! n/t arthritisR_US Apr 2013 #35

As was the Crucifixion tblue Apr 2013 #178

Even the Bible distinguishes between killing and murder. aquart Apr 2013 #248

What does the original scripture say? lunatica Apr 2013 #264

I'd be real hesitant to say "original" about any biblical manuscript of any kind. aquart Apr 2013 #300

If the word is supposed to be murder that would make sense lunatica Apr 2013 #301

then one should be for Clarence the nanny and not letting George Bailey drown. graham4anything Apr 2013 #3

And if you check yourself and find that you're truly progressive Shivering Jemmy Apr 2013 #4

The death penalty is not wrong per se, it's just no longer necessary. reformist2 Apr 2013 #5

It is wrong, per se. Murder is wrong no matter who does it. AAO Apr 2013 #47

Murder is wrong. Self-defense is not. In primitive societies, they had to execute dangerous people. reformist2 Apr 2013 #50

Self-defense? What you talkin bout? They're already in prison! AAO Apr 2013 #54

That doesn't help other prisoners or guards. former9thward Apr 2013 #146

We'd better kill them all then to protect them from themselves and others. AAO Apr 2013 #151

I am not interested in protecting anyone from themselves. former9thward Apr 2013 #152

Assisted suicide is a little different than murder. AAO Apr 2013 #198

Sometimes it is too late. former9thward Apr 2013 #206

And how exactly does the death penalty qualify as self-defense? marmar Apr 2013 #60

+1. I am opposed to the death penalty under all circumstances. Nye Bevan Apr 2013 #6

Never say never. n/t Animal Chin Apr 2013 #7

Why? What could it ever concievably do that is good or moral? AAO Apr 2013 #49

There's almost as much cognitive dissonance... Spider Jerusalem Apr 2013 #8

And 'liberal' men JustAnotherGen Apr 2013 #282

Yet liberal democrats support it in large numbers dems_rightnow Apr 2013 #9

Not sure everyone that thinks they're liberal really is. AAO Apr 2013 #52

And what exactly is "your" definition? onenote Apr 2013 #84

I am my own definition. AAO Apr 2013 #86

I'm not asking you to agree with me. I'm asking what your definition is. onenote Apr 2013 #90

Do you understand what a progressive is? It's not my job to educate you. AAO Apr 2013 #92

Do you understand that there is not necessarily one "progressive stand" on every issue? onenote Apr 2013 #94

There is for this progressive ! AAO Apr 2013 #95

Well fans, we have found the "perfect progressive"! onenote Apr 2013 #97

Perfect for me - I never said I was perfect for you. AAO Apr 2013 #99

C'mon Gertrude. We're just having some fun. onenote Apr 2013 #102

Isn't life grand! AAO Apr 2013 #107

My platform includes that one, and also contains truedelphi Apr 2013 #217

are you suggesting... Bully Taw Apr 2013 #254

Oh of course, I'm not. I have it on good authority that truedelphi Apr 2013 #255

i live in Boston, and i can assure you Bully Taw Apr 2013 #256

Yeah, I know. I live in 'Murka, truedelphi Apr 2013 #293

wow! Bully Taw Apr 2013 #294

back when George Dubya was Prez, liberal-style people wanted to know the truedelphi Apr 2013 #298

My definition of a liberal is one that is open-minded and rarely 100% sure about anything. nm rhett o rick Apr 2013 #232

I never met a liberal democrat who supports the DP. DU does not differ in the regard from liberals sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #101

"only civilized country" -- I'd be careful with that terminology onenote Apr 2013 #128

Japan has the DP. Lucky Luciano Apr 2013 #240

I agree. H2O Man Apr 2013 #10

I think the DU has a lot of non-liberals! Logical Apr 2013 #11

Can anyone be both liberal and rigidly exclusionary? aquart Apr 2013 #15

People are allowed to define thenselves as angels if they like AAO Apr 2013 #55

Exactly. How dare anyone tell the neighborhood CPA that's he's not in fact, a third-world dictator LanternWaste Apr 2013 #184

Indeed, Logical. DU is home to Democrats, liberals, and others on the left. Laelth Apr 2013 #281

I'm not 'progressive' which is a gutless word. I'm a liberal. aquart Apr 2013 #12

How about liberal progressive? MrMickeysMom Apr 2013 #98

"Now take that bed, Procrustes, and have a nice nap." ashling Apr 2013 #200

i take exception to your description of "progressive" as gutless frylock Apr 2013 #215

Yup! nt Lucky Luciano Apr 2013 #242

i'm against the death penalty barbtries Apr 2013 #13

I oppose the death penalty but don't think its the be all and end all of what defines a progressive onenote Apr 2013 #14

Same here davidpdx Apr 2013 #21

How about being progressive across the board? AAO Apr 2013 #59

What if guilt is not in question (e.g. McVeigh)? Shrek Apr 2013 #16

the death penalty costs more than keeping someone imprisoned for life. I don't think there is any auntAgonist Apr 2013 #87

+1 intheflow Apr 2013 #117

what is gained by killing the person? Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #192

McVeigh admitted that he bombed the Murrah building Shrek Apr 2013 #195

crazy people admit to all sorts of things. Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #201

Note that the guilty plea was rejected Shrek Apr 2013 #208

The guilty plea was accepted and he was sentenced to death. Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #210

Not true dreamnightwind Apr 2013 #202

There have been many cases where innocent people have been pressured/coerced into confessing cui bono Apr 2013 #229

Since when did DU be come the Progressive (capital P) Forum?? Skidmore Apr 2013 #17

I guess you have to be so far left before your presence is acceptable. Common Sense Party Apr 2013 #213

Since when did valuing human life become a far left prinicple? cui bono Apr 2013 #230

People that are sent to prison for life do not appeal their sentences? Common Sense Party Apr 2013 #231

It's been shown in studies. cui bono Apr 2013 #233

Ageed democrank Apr 2013 #18

I have mixed feelings on the Death Penalty - it's an issue I haven't decided yet el_bryanto Apr 2013 #19

Are there now "standards" for belonging on DU? hamsterjill Apr 2013 #130

The only rationale Arby Apr 2013 #20

+1 nt Live and Learn Apr 2013 #76

Best reply in this thread, IMO War Horse Apr 2013 #194

Correct, and vengeance is wrong dreamnightwind Apr 2013 #211

I support the death penalty only when it's administered on the spot in commission of a very violent Flatulo Apr 2013 #22

Self defense isn't a penalty TheKentuckian Apr 2013 #42

Well said malaise Apr 2013 #23

Then apply your own standard in reverse dmallind Apr 2013 #24

killing someone to show that killing is wrong. Javaman Apr 2013 #25

Killing somebody to stop them killing again? dmallind Apr 2013 #44

and killing is good how? nt Javaman Apr 2013 #48

Who said it's good? It may however be necessary. dmallind Apr 2013 #63

killing is necessary how? nt Javaman Apr 2013 #162

I'm going to play devil's advocate here Harry Monroe Apr 2013 #189

I don't believe in the death penalty for anyone Javaman Apr 2013 #197

I do admire the courage of your convictions. Harry Monroe Apr 2013 #227

It's not up to us to decide who "forfeits their right to live" Javaman Apr 2013 #237

But the murderer has already made that decision Harry Monroe Apr 2013 #241

yes and he has to live with it. Javaman Apr 2013 #247

At least he gets to live. But too bad for his victim, huh? I guess it sucks to be him. Harry Monroe Apr 2013 #258

If living for the rest of your life in prison, where it's well known that your Javaman Apr 2013 #269

I never once said that it wasn't Harry Monroe Apr 2013 #283

we are talking about capital punishment. Javaman Apr 2013 #285

And you have stated your position eloquently and logically Harry Monroe Apr 2013 #288

Thanks. :) Javaman Apr 2013 #289

It is a thorny issue and a complex one if you don't view the world in black and white Harry Monroe Apr 2013 #286

I've had to walk that walk. Javaman Apr 2013 #287

does it have to 100%? Realistically, is there much difference between 99.9% cali Apr 2013 #28

The same standards should apply, no? dmallind Apr 2013 #61

phaw. no. cali Apr 2013 #118

small minds AAO Apr 2013 #62

Sure, keep telling yourself that. Try it to the families of victims or previously convicted killers dmallind Apr 2013 #64

That's why they don't make those decisions! AAO Apr 2013 #68

Read it again. Jeez..... dmallind Apr 2013 #78

So you advocate murder, that's your right. AAO Apr 2013 #83

Do you believe anyone who kills someone else should be put to death? whopis01 Apr 2013 #120

The Death Penalty RobinA Apr 2013 #26

Have to agree. K and R Ishoutandscream2 Apr 2013 #27

I'm OK with DP when agency of heinous crime is certain and no serious mitigating circumstances. aikoaiko Apr 2013 #29

The three Rs: Revenge, Retaliation, Retribution G_j Apr 2013 #30

you forgot Recidivism dmallind Apr 2013 #67

And- Rehabilitation. Nevermind- Redemption KittyWampus Apr 2013 #103

I'm against the death penalty, even for this guy. randome Apr 2013 #31

He can define it for himself, and I agree with him! AAO Apr 2013 #65

however Niceguy1 Apr 2013 #136

He has a right to try to, but only you can say what you believe. AAO Apr 2013 #143

"OK with putting innocent people to death"? cartach Apr 2013 #32

Why? Orrex Apr 2013 #37

Agree with all except last paragraph. Some people are afraid they will be let out and kill again. freshwest Apr 2013 #179

All good points Orrex Apr 2013 #182

Agreed, and rightwingers who want to execute rather than pay money to keep killers incarcerated, freshwest Apr 2013 #185

Agreed! broadcaster75201 Apr 2013 #33

Yes, and some people in this thread are proving it! AAO Apr 2013 #70

America is "one of the most barbaric Nations in history" onenote Apr 2013 #88

Let's see... bobclark86 Apr 2013 #161

Despite your "maybe" I'll take your post as agreeing with me onenote Apr 2013 #167

Who died and made you judge, jury and executioner of all progressives? BeyondGeography Apr 2013 #36

Thanks get the red out Apr 2013 #40

Let's see - according to you AAO Apr 2013 #73

WOW you have ESP! You can read my mind! get the red out Apr 2013 #122

Well, everyone does it to me. While in Rome... AAO Apr 2013 #126

If the definition of Murder is Unlawful Killing, the State that enacts the Law, is not criminal. freshwest Apr 2013 #223

Why, that's all the rage on D.U. Lately. I'm against the DP... Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #135

I am against the death penalty in all cases even heinous economic crimes by the 1%ers. byeya Apr 2013 #38

A supposedly progressive forum LWolf Apr 2013 #39

Best post in the thread. nt woo me with science Apr 2013 #53

'thou shalt not kill' no asterisk spanone Apr 2013 #41

render unto caesar that which is ceasar's and he wasnt talking just about money leftyohiolib Apr 2013 #104

Thou shalt not murder. Common Sense Party Apr 2013 #116

k&r when we claim to have better morals we need to show better morals dembotoz Apr 2013 #43

It sickens me when people cheer for death. AAO Apr 2013 #45

Agreed. Also, life imprisonment without a chance for parole is a form of death penalty. marble falls Apr 2013 #46

I am still conflicted on this one but I do agree in principle. idwiyo Apr 2013 #66

some folks are just to dangerous to let go free ever--charlie manson, jeff dahlmer, dick chenney, dembotoz Apr 2013 #156

Who ges to make that list? Mobs or politically appointed "officials"? marble falls Apr 2013 #165

K&R Agree. Support for state sanctioned murder should be a TOS violation. idwiyo Apr 2013 #51

I'd vote for that every time! I can't stand murderers! AAO Apr 2013 #74

I think the death penalty is the easy way out. I want the person who kills other to be put southernyankeebelle Apr 2013 #56

yes. n/t auntAgonist Apr 2013 #89

+1 get the red out Apr 2013 #129

This is my conclusion also Inkfreak Apr 2013 #163

Yes I agree with you. Another thing that bothers me is that they give the death southernyankeebelle Apr 2013 #187

This is the only reason I stopped supporting the DP. Wait Wut Apr 2013 #224

Now that is a good idea. By the time they die they would be having conversations southernyankeebelle Apr 2013 #228

there are a SHITLOAD of things a 'progressive' forum ProdigalJunkMail Apr 2013 #57

And that doesn't make it right. AAO Apr 2013 #75

and no one said it does... ProdigalJunkMail Apr 2013 #112

Don't get bent - just asserting a point. AAO Apr 2013 #115

i can dig it... n/t ProdigalJunkMail Apr 2013 #131

You have a great day, PJM! AAO Apr 2013 #139

I'm not for the death penalty... musical_soul Apr 2013 #69

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #71

There are executions I do not oppose Bad Thoughts Apr 2013 #72

You're thinking too much. Just try resting on principle. AAO Apr 2013 #77

Ideology is for Teapublicans Bad Thoughts Apr 2013 #91

Intelligent, educated people should pay attention to details. AAO Apr 2013 #93

Google Polly Klass. cliffordu Apr 2013 #79

Thank you, cliffordu Carolina Apr 2013 #147

Yep. cliffordu Apr 2013 #154

I was young, but I remember that one, too. GoCubsGo Apr 2013 #299

What fraction of an innocent is it worth killing to kill a murderer? Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2013 #172

Killing is never the answer! peace13 Apr 2013 #80

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #164

That's why we're progressives. mountain grammy Apr 2013 #81

I'm a progressive... Nitram Apr 2013 #82

Ditto! Carolina Apr 2013 #149

Thank You! n/t auntAgonist Apr 2013 #85

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #96

Revenge has nothing to do with justice. idwiyo Apr 2013 #106

What do you call "Absolutely irrefutable" Google the innocence project and get back to me. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #109

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #121

No, I don't get your point. For every one of them, there are 100 that Law enforcement thought was stevenleser Apr 2013 #123

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #141

For you, is "justice" revenge? An eye for an eye thing? Serious question. uppityperson Apr 2013 #144

Again, your assumptions are off. I would rather be executed than in a super max. So, your stevenleser Apr 2013 #145

What is a "first-rank progressive?" cyberswede Apr 2013 #158

Post removed Post removed Apr 2013 #173

WTF? cyberswede Apr 2013 #127

What "ultimate punishment"? Being locked up in a supermax until they die? Revenge is not Justice. uppityperson Apr 2013 #138

And some of these people are years later found nadinbrzezinski Apr 2013 #166

A policy of only executing in those circumstances will fail sometimes. Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2013 #175

Life without provision for parole or early release in solitary confinement at ADX is OK instead FarCenter Apr 2013 #100

so much for big tent -trumad's making the rules now on his hit and run post leftyohiolib Apr 2013 #105

But they're only the rules for Trumad onenote Apr 2013 #113

He's entitled to try. We're entitled to laugh. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2013 #125

I'm fine with death penalty in two cases, If you rape a child 10 or younger, no need to live.. snooper2 Apr 2013 #108

In those cases, they're put away in solitary because their fellow inmates would murder them. BlueCaliDem Apr 2013 #133

I disagree it's a waste of space and resources snooper2 Apr 2013 #134

And I disagree with your disagreement. BlueCaliDem Apr 2013 #137

I'm for the death penalty Capt. Obvious Apr 2013 #190

Depressive forums are free to do so though. Kablooie Apr 2013 #110

Why I oppose the death penalty. onenote Apr 2013 #111

Murder as state sanctioned punishment is wrong. Progressive dog Apr 2013 #114

The death penalty sucks. Litmus test issues suck almost as bad. lumberjack_jeff Apr 2013 #124

What should a progressive forum always be for? IMHO, it should always be for open discussions. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #132

Frankly Carolina Apr 2013 #142

Agreed. The death penalty is a long standing staple of the conservative agenda. nt Zorra Apr 2013 #148

Mind if I ditto this post? Phentex Apr 2013 #153

Not at all. Republican Party on Crime ~ Zorra Apr 2013 #157

Purity test fail stklurker Apr 2013 #150

Why make him a martyr when that is what he wants? Make him live a life of hell in a cell instead. appleannie1 Apr 2013 #155

We are very fortunate to have you to define progressivism for us. rrneck Apr 2013 #168

So, if you are FOR the death penalty, let me ask one question. RoccoR5955 Apr 2013 #169

Any country that still executes it's prisoners is a Barbaric society newmember Apr 2013 #170

Except for your last paragraph, this thread turned out to be very interesting. randome Apr 2013 #171

I might well support the death penalty if it could be applied infallibly or if there were no prisons Donald Ian Rankin Apr 2013 #174

I am against the DP on principle Taverner Apr 2013 #176

K&R redqueen Apr 2013 #177

So we kill someone to show that killing is wrong. WHEN CRABS ROAR Apr 2013 #180

No, indeed. n/t Orsino Apr 2013 #181

I AGREE. SalviaBlue Apr 2013 #183

If we are so terrified of murderers... NiteOwll Apr 2013 #188

This forum advocates nothing on the subject.... brooklynite Apr 2013 #191

If we are going to continue to behave like a pre-enlightenment society Warren Stupidity Apr 2013 #193

George Carlin: "The death penalty doesn't work if you use it on people who aren't afraid to die." Initech Apr 2013 #199

So you really mean: Anyone POSTING on a Progressive forum should never advocate the death penalty Common Sense Party Apr 2013 #203

if that's how you read it.. trumad Apr 2013 #204

Well, since DU doesn't exactly have a party platform or make policy statements Common Sense Party Apr 2013 #207

yep trumad Apr 2013 #209

So, in your opinion, a Democrat who is okay with the death penalty in certain situations Common Sense Party Apr 2013 #212

Prove to me the system is full proof...can you? trumad Apr 2013 #219

Fool proof? No, I can't. Common Sense Party Apr 2013 #225

A dodge huh? trumad Apr 2013 #235

If we have him dead to rights, sure. Common Sense Party Apr 2013 #236

If is a big fucking word isnt it? trumad Apr 2013 #239

I don't pick and choose. trumad Apr 2013 #261

I'll answer your question onenote Apr 2013 #245

Nope---but at least that person isn't dead. trumad Apr 2013 #262

no, but they'll never get back what was taken from them onenote Apr 2013 #268

giving me a fucking break trumad Apr 2013 #270

If you deserved one, I would onenote Apr 2013 #275

Then peace out Brother. trumad Apr 2013 #277

Agreed. Jamaal510 Apr 2013 #205

this stopped being a progressive forum in January of 2009 frylock Apr 2013 #214

yeah. progressoid Apr 2013 #221

Nice to see you can come back from the darkside libodem Apr 2013 #216

My opinion on the Death Penality is that is still wrong even if 100% fool proof jimlup Apr 2013 #218

Agree---even if it was 100 percent perfect.. trumad Apr 2013 #220

I agree... RGinNJ Apr 2013 #252

Yet it is ok for a progressive forum to support a candidate who is in favor of capital punishment? Freddie Stubbs Apr 2013 #222

Some people do nuance and shades of gray. MrSlayer Apr 2013 #226

I agree steve2470 Apr 2013 #234

Excuse me for playing devil's advocate, but couldn't this argument apply to ANY punishment? eom tarheelsunc Apr 2013 #238

Sometimes it is not about revenge or being a theoretical deterrent. Lucky Luciano Apr 2013 #243

Not everyone who posts here should be assumed to actually BE a progressive/Lib DEM. blkmusclmachine Apr 2013 #244

"full proof"? radiclib Apr 2013 #246

I am opposed to the DP, but disagree with the 100% level of proof. Kennah Apr 2013 #251

Human emotion ultimately deciding the death of another is usually murder. flvegan Apr 2013 #253

I'm 100% against the death penalty. IrishEyes Apr 2013 #257

If the death penalty comes in the form of a Predator drone, without benefit of a trial, OnyxCollie Apr 2013 #259

People here? trumad Apr 2013 #265

There's someone in this thread OnyxCollie Apr 2013 #273

A Progressive Forum should also LostOne4Ever Apr 2013 #263

Well if so-called Progressives are happy using the death penalty trumad Apr 2013 #266

Who said we were happy? LostOne4Ever Apr 2013 #267

and I stick by it 100 percent trumad Apr 2013 #271

FTFY LostOne4Ever Apr 2013 #272

But I didn't did I/ trumad Apr 2013 #274

and you've said you're okay with locking up innocent people for life onenote Apr 2013 #276

I said its ok to lock up innocent people for life? trumad Apr 2013 #279

I would favor a Constitutional amendment to abolish the death penalty. Laelth Apr 2013 #278

I always enjoy being told what to think? panzerfaust Apr 2013 #284

Death is far too kind to Tsarnaev. backscatter712 Apr 2013 #292

Don't like the death penalty but some cases tempt me.... jg15 Apr 2013 #295

no civilized country except us uses it. trumad Apr 2013 #296

Japan isn't civilized? Joseph Ledger Apr 2013 #303

While personally against the death penalty, I think stopping it JCMach1 Apr 2013 #297

It can never be 100 percent full proof deaniac21 Apr 2013 #302