General Discussion

Recursion

(56,582 posts)

179. Entirely. This isn't some rhetorical trick; I'm totally serious.

Thu Apr 25, 2013, 11:16 PM

Apr 2013

And I've been to all of those countries.

Now, we're certainly closer to Canada than Brazil or Mexico are (which is why we only have 1/5th their murder rate), but we're not even close to there. We aren't a social democracy; Canada is. We don't (or at best barely) have a functioning safety net; Canada does. We have a generations-old underclass tied in to centuries of racial oppression; Canada doesn't. Our regulatory system is a creature of corporate rather than democratic interests; Canada's isn't (though with the late Conservative and neoliberal governments theirs have been moving that way, sadly).

In the context of a government of, by, and for the elite rather than the people, the right to bear arms is a net positive. Not to overthrow it, but because when a hurricane does hit if you're in the wrong city you may well end up completely on your own for a while.

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Is there any reasonable argument that the second amendment is actually a good thing? [View all] DanTex Apr 2013 OP

We lose 10 times as many lives due to tobacco. And it's legal. geckosfeet Apr 2013 #1

But tobacco is not constitutionally protected, and nobody thinks it should be. (AFAIK) DanTex Apr 2013 #4

And very rarely does the tobacco user SheilaT Apr 2013 #6

Good response. AlinPA Apr 2013 #29

Maybe you missed the part about second hand smoke,,,, geckosfeet Apr 2013 #70

No, I didn't. Reread my answer. SheilaT Apr 2013 #80

I see. Well, tobacco kills by a different mechanism. And it does not kill right away. geckosfeet Apr 2013 #82

You realize that guns cause instant death Progressive dog Apr 2013 #108

Nonsense. beevul Apr 2013 #116

Yeah, real heavy taxes on devices designed to kill Progressive dog Apr 2013 #118

You said... beevul Apr 2013 #120

Guns sre designed to kill Progressive dog Apr 2013 #121

And yet...most aren't used for that. beevul Apr 2013 #123

So you agree that guns are designed to kill Progressive dog Apr 2013 #124

I agree that they're designed to propel a projectile... beevul Apr 2013 #127

Guns are designed to kill, Progressive dog Apr 2013 #133

I don't notice them being used for doorstops...... lastlib Apr 2013 #126

You don't notice most of them bsing used... beevul Apr 2013 #128

Oh yeah you do, they make lots of noise Progressive dog Apr 2013 #135

Almost all guns are bought for one of two purposes jmowreader Apr 2013 #159

Target shooting is not practice killing hack89 Apr 2013 #189

There are two gun stores less than a mile from my house jmowreader Apr 2013 #192

Competitive target shooting uses none of those targets. hack89 Apr 2013 #193

I know. And how many of you are there? jmowreader Apr 2013 #194

So where is the carnage from all these highly trained killers? hack89 Apr 2013 #196

What a stupid thing to say. Alva Goldbook Apr 2013 #169

Sure, then explain what they are designed for Progressive dog Apr 2013 #171

"Guns sre designed to kill. It is their only reason to exist." Yet millions of Democrats disagree. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #186

Guns are designed to kill is fact not opinion Progressive dog Apr 2013 #187

You say "Millions of Americans believe the earth is flat." Good luck with your flat-earth meetings. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #197

You can read some Progressive dog Apr 2013 #198

Yep. Sometines they do. Usually death is caused by blood loss though. geckosfeet Apr 2013 #134

Smoking is restricted, regulated, and heavily taxed Progressive dog Apr 2013 #112

so what? why shouldnt kids learn to shoot. most seem to enjoy it. geckosfeet Apr 2013 #161

So kids should be able to do anything they enjoy Progressive dog Apr 2013 #162

Because you believe a lot of preconceived notions and stereotypes? geckosfeet Apr 2013 #163

No, I'm just going by what you say Progressive dog Apr 2013 #164

You don't have to. But it's a good lesson. geckosfeet Apr 2013 #165

I'm glad you learned Progressive dog Apr 2013 #166

If guns were outlawed, many of the people would die, anyway. Honeycombe8 Apr 2013 #167

You say, "Guns exist for one reason and one reason only." Yet millions of Democrats don't agree. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #185

Yes, the 2nd Amendment IS a Good Thing, and the OP is Completely Wrong. Alva Goldbook Apr 2013 #81

All you've done is explained why it made sense in 1789. jeff47 Apr 2013 #84

You've never heard of an armed insurrection? Alva Goldbook Apr 2013 #92

Try actually reading what is written. jeff47 Apr 2013 #109

Let's take another look at Libya. Alva Goldbook Apr 2013 #136

Quick! Divert again!!!!! jeff47 Apr 2013 #147

You're being intentionally obtuse. Alva Goldbook Apr 2013 #149

You're ignoring the 200 years of history since the 2nd was ratified. jmg257 Apr 2013 #160

Tell that to Eisenhower. Alva Goldbook Apr 2013 #170

What would I do? jmg257 Apr 2013 #202

I own a well-regulated clock. It keeps time perfectly. (end) Alva Goldbook Apr 2013 #203

That's wonderful. Is it regulated by the state, according to federal guidelines? jmg257 Apr 2013 #204

An armed citizenry is a strong deterrent against tyranny? Here in the U.S.? Paladin Apr 2013 #115

Dick Cheney never lost any sleep.... Alva Goldbook Apr 2013 #140

I've owned guns for the last 50 years. They don't scare me. Paladin Apr 2013 #143

So in other words, all you have is name calling. Alva Goldbook Apr 2013 #168

It sounds like you still have a lot of things to prove to yourself. Paladin Apr 2013 #188

Armed insurrection made us lose Vietnam? tblue Apr 2013 #129

You're aware, aren't you, that the Vietnamese say that war as a war for independence, right? Alva Goldbook Apr 2013 #137

nice try. spanone Apr 2013 #102

... that standing armies, in time of peace, Blue4Texas Apr 2013 #154

This post is not about tabacco. brush Apr 2013 #87

Tobacco is regulated and highly taxed to offset the cost of illness... Walk away Apr 2013 #156

I have a firearm for self protection. Throd Apr 2013 #2

From whom? femmocrat Apr 2013 #5

I don't have a specific name. Throd Apr 2013 #7

I never get that meme. Fire extinguishers weren't upaloopa Apr 2013 #21

Different tools for different purposes. Throd Apr 2013 #22

My point is you stand a better chance of being upaloopa Apr 2013 #24

I don't think that is true. Throd Apr 2013 #26

Obviously upaloopa Apr 2013 #28

it's true. veganlush Apr 2013 #51

On a broad and general basis perhaps... Pelican Apr 2013 #68

What you "think" doesn't change anything. morningfog Apr 2013 #60

You can't apply a broadly general statistical probability to a specific individual. Lizzie Poppet Apr 2013 #69

Duh. truebluegreen Apr 2013 #144

No argument. Lizzie Poppet Apr 2013 #145

No, fire extinguishers are designed to put out fires... Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #25

I'm on a iPod so I can't get the study but women are four times upaloopa Apr 2013 #31

Well, post it when you can. nt Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #63

A number of studies. EOTE Apr 2013 #46

This is why depressed people shouldn't own guns. Alva Goldbook Apr 2013 #93

Or people in general. EOTE Apr 2013 #98

Precisely. Alva Goldbook Apr 2013 #94

How about the six people around you accidentally shot when you jump at shadows? Robb Apr 2013 #99

Even without any further information, I can tell you it's not improving your survival prospects. 2ndAmForComputers Apr 2013 #195

There is a difference between a reasonable argument and a convincing argument. ZombieHorde Apr 2013 #3

Erm, not so fast Benton D Struckcheon Apr 2013 #8

I don't entirely disagree. DanTex Apr 2013 #12

Understand you'd still have the Navy, the Marines (part of the Navy), Benton D Struckcheon Apr 2013 #17

You may be right. Something to think about at least. DanTex Apr 2013 #23

But for Iraq, Bush did use the National Guard as though they were regular Army, tblue37 Apr 2013 #77

Yeah, but that came later in the war, when they were having trouble replacing the ones who... Benton D Struckcheon Apr 2013 #78

No. National Guard units were present the entire war. (nt) jeff47 Apr 2013 #86

Perhaps you should move back to reality. jeff47 Apr 2013 #85

You need to reread my post, this time with comprehension. n/t Benton D Struckcheon Apr 2013 #106

No, I comprehended it. You apparently need to take your own advice. jeff47 Apr 2013 #111

Happened after every war until Korea. Benton D Struckcheon Apr 2013 #152

Interesting post. I have never considered that angle. nt Mojorabbit Apr 2013 #91

When are gun threads going back to the gungeon? NightWatcher Apr 2013 #9

When you can pry them from their cold. dead, hands! Fuddnik Apr 2013 #10

When people stop committing mass murders with guns? Rex Apr 2013 #11

Should have happened long ago. Lizzie Poppet Apr 2013 #71

Yes. It has to do with the right of people to protect their homes. Bucky Apr 2013 #13

Your last sentence tblue Apr 2013 #132

The original intent is out dated but the upaloopa Apr 2013 #14

The bulk of scholarly opinion does not agree with your view... Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #45

Damn good question, DanTex. Thanks. (nt) Paladin Apr 2013 #15

Hmmm. What percent of gun owners use them in crimes? (nt) The Straight Story Apr 2013 #16

No, what percent of crimes use guns? morningfog Apr 2013 #61

So in other words, you don't want to answer The Straight Story Apr 2013 #64

Still the wrong question. I gave you the better quesiton. morningfog Apr 2013 #75

Irrelevant to policy? The Straight Story Apr 2013 #83

A professional, standing army is exactly what the founding fathers wanted to avoid davidn3600 Apr 2013 #18

That is true. But times have changed, I think. DanTex Apr 2013 #20

Dan, consider what your statement's consequences have had for our past, and for... Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #53

I believe these militias were the only thing the Founders had in mind: freshwest Apr 2013 #90

I'd like to see the militia called to serve. XRubicon Apr 2013 #19

So what you are saying is that oneshooter Apr 2013 #44

Well, my read of the constitution says gun owners are part of a well regulated militia XRubicon Apr 2013 #58

Other way 'round. Igel Apr 2013 #73

I like blue cheese dressing on my word salad XRubicon Apr 2013 #76

Your flippant response does nothing to counter that very valid point. Lizzie Poppet Apr 2013 #146

Thanks for your opinion XRubicon Apr 2013 #148

Likewise. Lizzie Poppet Apr 2013 #191

Your first paragraph was full of misinformation. former9thward Apr 2013 #27

LOL. You need to do a little reading. DanTex Apr 2013 #30

Other than LOL you have no information. former9thward Apr 2013 #34

And neither do you. Except for a bunch of historically ignorant claims about the second amendment. DanTex Apr 2013 #35

What Justice agrees with you? former9thward Apr 2013 #36

Umm, all of them except for the right-wingers. Did you actually read the Stevens dissent? DanTex Apr 2013 #38

Umm fits you. former9thward Apr 2013 #41

So you're going to simply ignore the Stevens dissent? DanTex Apr 2013 #42

All 4 signed Beyer's dissent also. former9thward Apr 2013 #47

And all 4 very clearly stated that it's about militia participation, and it does not protect DanTex Apr 2013 #49

So you know more about what the nine justices think than Beyer does. former9thward Apr 2013 #54

Well, I simply read what they say. DanTex Apr 2013 #56

Read the Heller dissent. All nine agree that it's an individual right. X_Digger Apr 2013 #39

Wrong. DanTex Apr 2013 #40

No, Stevens is talking about the purpose. Are you asserting that he contradicted himself? X_Digger Apr 2013 #43

He's says that whether it is an individual right doesn't matter, DanTex Apr 2013 #48

Lol, he says it's an individual right, then talks about the level of permissible regulation. X_Digger Apr 2013 #52

...and he's saying that it has nothing to do with private civilian use of firearms. DanTex Apr 2013 #55

Which is about the purpose, yes. X_Digger Apr 2013 #57

*sigh* A right that has nothing to do with private civilian gun ownership. DanTex Apr 2013 #59

An individual right, yes. X_Digger Apr 2013 #67

The paragraph in question.... Jeff In Milwaukee Apr 2013 #141

I've read it, all of it, thanks. X_Digger Apr 2013 #142

Having read it is nice Jeff In Milwaukee Apr 2013 #200

Ignoring his own words? That takes willful misapprehension. n/t X_Digger Apr 2013 #201

Short answer: Yes, there are many reasonable arguments in favor of the second amendment. Demo_Chris Apr 2013 #32

In other words, "because we're stuck with it". DanTex Apr 2013 #33

I said a great deal more than that... Demo_Chris Apr 2013 #37

If only there was some process by which to change the constitution jeff47 Apr 2013 #89

Some people have the idea that insurection means engaging authority in pitched battles. nt Demo_Chris Apr 2013 #95

That would be the only reason you need guns to do so. jeff47 Apr 2013 #110

It's an over age Sacred Cow on it's last legs whose usefulness died long ago. Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2013 #50

I don't know about all that, but I'll keep the .38 by the bed, thank you. nt Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #62

A glass of warm milk would probably serve you better. Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2013 #66

I prefer mine cold, ice cream is even better! Eleanors38 Apr 2013 #113

Well, ... oldhippie Apr 2013 #65

One of these things is not like the others! (From _Sesame Street_.) tblue37 Apr 2013 #79

So why don't you lead the movement to repeal it? hack89 Apr 2013 #72

We're stuck with a lot of things OwnedByCats Apr 2013 #74

No. Not at all. Zoeisright Apr 2013 #88

My view is that our energies are better spent BainsBane Apr 2013 #96

Every challange to the Second Amendment strengthens opponents of reasonable gun safety laws Tom Rinaldo Apr 2013 #100

yes, i believe i have a right to defend myself. DeadEyeDyck Apr 2013 #97

I wish the mods could move this to the gungeon. Iggo Apr 2013 #101

Damn Skippy! nt MrScorpio Apr 2013 #103

For hunting and self-defense. TimberValley Apr 2013 #104

We can't know how our political culture would have evolved without the Second Amendment Tom Rinaldo Apr 2013 #105

2nd Amendment OLDMDDEM Apr 2013 #107

IMHO: NO CTyankee Apr 2013 #114

Is the second ammendment a good thing? No. Hand me my black Sharpie marker. I'll take care of it. hunter Apr 2013 #117

I think it is Yo_Mama Apr 2013 #119

I support allowing firearm ownership though federal law, not as a "constitutional right" NYC Liberal Apr 2013 #122

Apples and oranges. beevul Apr 2013 #150

Whatever Analogy you want to make, gun ownership should be NYC Liberal Apr 2013 #178

Yeah, I got one for you... cynatnite Apr 2013 #125

Shoot him for 'coming near'? tblue Apr 2013 #130

Given how violent he was...YES! n/t cynatnite Apr 2013 #131

No he prolly wouldn't be in prison, premium Apr 2013 #139

Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #138

As it is written? No. Politicub Apr 2013 #151

Since you've answered your own question... discntnt_irny_srcsm Apr 2013 #153

The right to defend Blue4Texas Apr 2013 #155

Of course not. It's bullshit. Uzair Apr 2013 #157

You think it's obsolete. Bake Apr 2013 #158

Yes: we're an incredibly violent country, which is why people have guns Recursion Apr 2013 #172

Canada has a higher homicide rate than the US? LOL. You're slipping... DanTex Apr 2013 #173

D'oh Recursion Apr 2013 #174

So now the list contains zero countries that remotely resemble the US. DanTex Apr 2013 #175

No, that's who resembles the US. Recursion Apr 2013 #176

So you honestly think we are more similar to El Salvador than Canada or the UK? DanTex Apr 2013 #177

Entirely. This isn't some rhetorical trick; I'm totally serious. Recursion Apr 2013 #179

You continue to ignore the point that in other categories of violent crime, we much more closely DanTex Apr 2013 #180

Our life expectancy is closer to Mexico's than Canada's. And our Gini coefficient leaves me no doubt Recursion Apr 2013 #181

Mexico has rampant poverty, and per capita GDP of about $16K per year. DanTex Apr 2013 #183

Incidentally, about 100 days of our life expectancy is lost due to guns. DanTex Apr 2013 #184

That said, there are parts of the US that are like the social democracies Recursion Apr 2013 #182

Looks like old data. And you don't list any link, and there are no references. baldguy Apr 2013 #190

Dude, now you're just grasping at straws Uzair Apr 2013 #199