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rrneck

(17,671 posts)
53. This is a repost of an old OP
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 09:58 AM
Apr 2013

It's too long, but guns are a complicated issue that require a lot of examination.

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Since guns have become a partisan fetish object the legislation is understood to be regulating that object. Actually, the proposed legislation regulates relationships between people.

When you buy a gun from an FFL, it is a commercial relationship between a certain type of buyer and seller. For the seller to be considered legitimate he or she has to be licensed as and FFL with all the rights and responsibilities thereto. The FFL has to keep a "bound book" of every transaction and firearm bought and sold and make his or her inventory and records available to the government for inspection. There are severe penalties for non compliance. For someone to be a "gun buyer" he or she has to verify that they are an upstanding citizen by filling out a 4473 and passing a background check, also with severe penalties for non compliance. If these conditions are not met, the sale cannot be completed and the relationship between buyer and seller will not exist. That's how the regulation of that kind of relationship is done.

Heretofore, transfer of firearms between friends, family, associates or acquaintances were exactly that. It's the same gun, but the relationships between the people are different. Universal background checks will require the redefinition of the relationships between people surrounding the transfer of the gun. That's why exceptions are made for family in the current proposed legislation.

A gun is considered a much more personal object than say, a car or a house. A gun, generally understood to be a handgun, is small enough to carried in one's clothing so is understood in the same context as a wallet or a ring and is considered an extension of one's body as opposed to other personal property like a lawn mower. Also, a gun is understood to be important for the protection of one's person, so it's importance as a safety device is much greater than almost any other thing someone may own. The circumstances under which a gun is designed to be used surround issues of life and death and loom very large in the minds of those who own or transfer them to others.

The problem with a background check requirement for private sales is that it will require us to redefine our relationships with others to transfer the gun. While two people may have any number of uncounted types of human relationships between them from godparent to causal acquaintance, at the point of transfer the relationship has to become one between an FFL and a qualified buyer. Any background check system has to employ chain of custody documentation, penalties for non compliance and a means of prosecuting violators or it will be useless. That system is already in place for FFL's and the law as proposed will use the same verification infrastructure for private sales as for commercial sales. Hence the controversy surrounding "keeping records" and "gun registry" etc.

So the problem with the implementation of universal background checks is that no matter what relationship two people may have, when the firearm is transferred the relationship of "sanctioned buyer and seller" becomes paramount. While that relationship can begin and end between two anonymous individuals in a store, it will not supplant whatever relationship two people may have prior to the transfer. Thus, the regulation requirement becomes intrusive into the private lives of individuals.

Such an intrusion is not, in itself, a bad thing if it results in an improvement in the lives of all. The sociocultural cost benefit analysis of that benefit is done through the political process. Resistance to further firearms regulation from the political right will be near universal, and the intrusion into the private lives of citizens by "big government" will make that resistance particularly intense. Support from the political left will not match the resistance from the right because firearms ownership is not divided along partisan lines and the implications of the legislation will be a factor in liberal gun owning support of the law. Support from the political center will be particularly soft depending on how people feel about the implications of the legislation.

The issue is a difficult one for the political left in light of other important signature policy initiatives we champion. Liberal defense of personal relationships have been a lynchpin of any number of policy initiatives from marriage equality to reproductive rights. Support for regulating relationships between people surrounding the transfer of firearms opens the left to accusations of ideological hypocrisy. Such accusations, whether true or not, will have an impact on the support for the overall Democratic agenda. The question to ask is will universal background checks result in sufficient societal improvement to refute accusations of ideological hypocrisy and deliver a perceptible improvement in people's lives to merit the intrusion into their interpersonal relationships?

Since only a tiny fraction of the firearms in existence are used improperly a universal background check requirement will have a negligible impact on the further reduction of their improper use. The negative impact on the private lives of people who otherwise would do no harm far outweighs whatever benefit it might deliver in the reduction of crime with firearms. Furthermore, the political liabilities of such a requirement may well result in much greater damage because of the damage to much more important and effective aspects of the Democratic agenda that will be impeded because of support for this law.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1172118043

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Are you familiar with statistics and how they relate to polling? nadinbrzezinski Apr 2013 #1
I would say no. neverforget Apr 2013 #80
What do you mean when you say "our cause"? Robb Apr 2013 #2
"Your country, mine, every other country in the world, has the same cause" hfojvt Apr 2013 #11
here's my research...several polls spanone Apr 2013 #3
We? LOL. DanTex Apr 2013 #4
Take a course in statistics and polling and get back to "us." 99Forever Apr 2013 #5
You seem to be complaining that only 1,772 came up with the 90% figure. lob1 Apr 2013 #6
How can anyone, but a fool or felon, be against background checks. Hoyt Apr 2013 #7
here's the thing about polling hfojvt Apr 2013 #8
It's not exactly that simple, though, because demographics matter. hughee99 Apr 2013 #35
90% speaks to the disparity on wealth upaloopa Apr 2013 #9
So, the thing with polls is that you only ask a few thousand people Recursion Apr 2013 #10
So, you'd rather the poll be conducted in Montana, North Dakota, or Texas? RC Apr 2013 #12
If you want a true representation of ALL Americans...then yes. davidn3600 Apr 2013 #13
I don't have the tabs in front of me but I remember this poll included 0 from big sky Recursion Apr 2013 #14
So another polling expert heard from Progressive dog Apr 2013 #45
what poll? the op mentions a poll, you mention a poll but where is it? where's the link? spanone Apr 2013 #19
Here you go. supernaut Apr 2013 #36
multiple polls showed well over 80% Progressive dog Apr 2013 #15
What are you talking about? Deep13 Apr 2013 #16
*yawn* Skittles Apr 2013 #29
I thought that might be the case... Deep13 Apr 2013 #62
The 90% figure is probably accurate. rrneck Apr 2013 #17
Would you explain the price to Progressive dog Apr 2013 #46
This is a repost of an old OP rrneck Apr 2013 #53
Every time I read a long post like this, there is always the bottom line Progressive dog Apr 2013 #54
Of course murders, the suicides, the accidental shootings rrneck Apr 2013 #56
Look around and you can find the number of self defense uses of guns Progressive dog Apr 2013 #57
I'll say it again. rrneck Apr 2013 #59
So what, we already have background checks on a self selected Progressive dog Apr 2013 #60
Here is the definition of a loophole. rrneck Apr 2013 #61
The federal government can regulate these sales Progressive dog Apr 2013 #63
Wrong. rrneck Apr 2013 #64
The idea is to change the law, but you knew that Progressive dog Apr 2013 #65
So how should the law work? Explain it. rrneck Apr 2013 #67
No point to this, is there Progressive dog Apr 2013 #68
Can you explain it? rrneck Apr 2013 #70
The gun nuts have to move past the 1st stage of grief Progressive dog Apr 2013 #71
And you still can't explain how a law that you support will work. rrneck Apr 2013 #72
90% of voters support 100% background checks Progressive dog Apr 2013 #73
Another dodge. rrneck Apr 2013 #74
Fact--90% of voters support 100% background checks Progressive dog Apr 2013 #75
LOL! rrneck Apr 2013 #79
Fact-90% of voters support !00% background checks Progressive dog Apr 2013 #81
Still running I see. rrneck Apr 2013 #82
90% of voters support 100% background checks Progressive dog Apr 2013 #83
I don't mind answering. rrneck Apr 2013 #84
So change the subject now Progressive dog Apr 2013 #85
So will the law work and merit your support? rrneck Apr 2013 #86
You don't have to prove why you don't support it Progressive dog Apr 2013 #88
LOL! rrneck Apr 2013 #89
I have already addressed the problems you claim to have with it Progressive dog Apr 2013 #91
So rrneck Apr 2013 #94
If I have to sell a car, it doesn't turn me into a car dealer Progressive dog Apr 2013 #96
Car analogies don't work as well as you think. rrneck Apr 2013 #97
Since you apparently did your usual cut and paste reply without bothering to read Progressive dog Apr 2013 #101
Well, lets play "quote the text". It's tedious, but sometimes necessary. rrneck Apr 2013 #107
And by the way... rrneck Apr 2013 #90
You expect, would that be an opinion Progressive dog Apr 2013 #92
Don't recognize your own words? rrneck Apr 2013 #93
You really don't get it , do you Progressive dog Apr 2013 #98
I haven't had the opportunity to confuse the two rrneck Apr 2013 #100
Rational does not maen agree with you, look it up Progressive dog Apr 2013 #102
That's true. rrneck Apr 2013 #103
Is that supposed to be funny Progressive dog Apr 2013 #104
It may or may not have been funny, but it was certainly accurate. rrneck Apr 2013 #105
I'm concerned about the life part first Progressive dog Apr 2013 #106
Well, you see the problem is rrneck Apr 2013 #108
Where did you find gun nut in the dictionary? Progressive dog Apr 2013 #109
Well, why don't you straighten it all out for us. rrneck Apr 2013 #110
You implied you knew what gun nut meant Progressive dog Apr 2013 #111
Sure they're convinced rrneck Apr 2013 #112
You are right but I thought the right group of people were on DU Progressive dog Apr 2013 #113
It's good to know that you are an American first. rrneck Apr 2013 #114
You are very confused , aren't you? Progressive dog Apr 2013 #115
I've been asking you rrneck Apr 2013 #116
Who died and left you boss Progressive dog Apr 2013 #117
Yet another fearless gun control advocate rrneck Apr 2013 #118
Yeah. When you don't go into specifics, you don't get as much negative response. JVS Apr 2013 #58
*this* is your first OP? bunnies Apr 2013 #18
A new Gungeoneer billh58 Apr 2013 #20
Theyre so cute at this stage. bunnies Apr 2013 #21
I think "new" might be pushing it... DanTex Apr 2013 #25
Lmao nadinbrzezinski Apr 2013 #33
recycled, more likely Skittles Apr 2013 #39
Actual research! edhopper Apr 2013 #22
yet no link....after ALL that work spanone Apr 2013 #23
There is a link in my OP. supernaut Apr 2013 #40
Hey supernaut edhopper Apr 2013 #24
The other problem is that the polls don't ask the right questions kudzu22 Apr 2013 #26
You know, objecting to questions on polls Progressive dog Apr 2013 #47
the sane side of America sigmasix Apr 2013 #27
there seems to be an endless supply of NRA pimps Skittles Apr 2013 #28
Endless.... Agschmid Apr 2013 #38
Unless they used a really biased sample set, it is probably pretty accurate pediatricmedic Apr 2013 #30
I tried to call every phone number in the country, but I missed lunch. And dinner. Buzz Clik Apr 2013 #31
Yes. Any other questions? XRubicon Apr 2013 #32
I want graphs and charts damn it ! olddots Apr 2013 #34
WTF? Are you talking about? n/t Agschmid Apr 2013 #37
For the people who keep saying "no link".. supernaut Apr 2013 #41
Does it Really matter? What dumb ass would be against background checks?? jmg257 Apr 2013 #42
More than 40 Senators Recursion Apr 2013 #43
It ain't over till it's over Progressive dog Apr 2013 #48
Well I hope they find a way to force it through the Senate Recursion Apr 2013 #49
It's not my day to watch 'em. In_The_Wind Apr 2013 #44
I see. Who might those people be who "keep asking" MineralMan Apr 2013 #50
We need to do more research. KansDem Apr 2013 #51
The Only Polls That Matter To A Congresscritter... KharmaTrain Apr 2013 #52
Gunner's Advice alcibiades_mystery Apr 2013 #55
Yes we are. It is helping. We will win this. morningfog Apr 2013 #66
It's more statistical than "Four out of five dentists" NoPasaran Apr 2013 #69
OP has been served his Pizza is no longer with us. nt stevenleser Apr 2013 #76
THIS is why education is so important. nt laundry_queen Apr 2013 #77
That's how ALL polls work gollygee Apr 2013 #78
What do you mean by "we"? baldguy Apr 2013 #87
Excellent joke! ecstatic Apr 2013 #95
Oh Jeez, another person who can't comprehend statistics & polling. JaneyVee Apr 2013 #99
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