General Discussion

joshcryer

(62,536 posts)

84. I do not think the theory is wrong.

Tue Feb 7, 2012, 01:20 AM

Feb 2012

It most certainly is used that way.

But not because that's an inherent aspect of these methods.

Merely that it's beneficial for those methods to be used that way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_the_Spectacle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_fetishism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_(Marxism)

Chomsky is not going so far as Debord in that suggesting that these are inherent, but the OP is short on details, the video is cut short of the total analysis, and I merely wanted others to understand the full extent of this critique. I deny vehemently this critique because as a technologist, I think that it goes down a route that is very counterintuitive. The fetishism of commodities is just as useful in itself toward revolution from my point of view, and thus should not be overall rejected. The Power of Myth, likewise, can be channeled for revolutionary purposes.

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Highlight:

Noam Chomsky on the role of sports in propaganda-based authority [View all] Bonobo Feb 2012 OP

Spoiler alert!! Robb Feb 2012 #1

We're all being coerced and conditioned in this culture... YoungDemCA Feb 2012 #2

It's called mass hypnosis. Zalatix Feb 2012 #29

I must be immune Generic Other Feb 2012 #124

Chomsky NAILS IT!!! The Crowd Goes Wild!!! NYC_SKP Feb 2012 #3

Yup...but ttle Giants won, so who cares nadinbrzezinski Feb 2012 #4

K&R Whisp Feb 2012 #5

Or you know. ForgoTheConsequence Feb 2012 #6

Why do we need to escape... YoungDemCA Feb 2012 #7

Give me a break. ForgoTheConsequence Feb 2012 #8

Settle down, I'm not attacking you... YoungDemCA Feb 2012 #10

Thats a decent point. ForgoTheConsequence Feb 2012 #11

"Why do we need to escape" ??!! Are you frikin' kidding?? Duppers Feb 2012 #16

At what point does the failure to make one's case to the people alcibiades_mystery Feb 2012 #9

I'll go with dumb people for $20, Alex. EFerrari Feb 2012 #15

Can I get a piece of that action? LooseWilly Feb 2012 #20

Lol. EFerrari Feb 2012 #36

Enjoy one for me... baseball bores me silly LooseWilly Feb 2012 #94

Maybe it was the early indoctrination of sitting through hundreds of Masses. EFerrari Feb 2012 #118

Debord's "critique" of the spectacle is the issue, not Chomsky's woefully lacking adaptation. joshcryer Feb 2012 #30

What?... Debord's critique of "the spectacle" is interesting... but it isn't... timely LooseWilly Feb 2012 #103

I'm not trying to undermine Chomsky or anything he has to say. joshcryer Feb 2012 #119

I'm guessing one of the Lancers pantsed him in the boy's locker room. msanthrope Feb 2012 #12

Sports are fun Noam. rudycantfail Feb 2012 #13

He never said they weren't fun. LooseWilly Feb 2012 #22

"Enjoy all you want though." rudycantfail Feb 2012 #58

The "problem" I have with sports isn't the sports... it's the assholes who want to co-opt sports. LooseWilly Feb 2012 #70

Spot-on observations. Populist_Prole Feb 2012 #64

I only got to see the fourth quarter Kalidurga Feb 2012 #14

Football is a civil religion. Manifestor_of_Light Feb 2012 #17

Does this apply to the soccer-crazed rest of the world? RZM Feb 2012 #18

Yes, it does. Capitalocracy Feb 2012 #19

South Africa won the Rugby World Cup after the end of apartheid. joshcryer Feb 2012 #34

How does South Africa winning the Rugby World Cup after the end of apartheid underscore anything? LooseWilly Feb 2012 #77

I would assume that the end of apartheid was a preferrable outcome and that... joshcryer Feb 2012 #80

Wait... how did sports play an *anti-authoritarian* role here? LooseWilly Feb 2012 #91

Plenty of other states play close attention to their teams as well RZM Feb 2012 #63

This applies to all forms of consumer behavior. joshcryer Feb 2012 #31

I'm curious to hear an elaboration of your theory of Chomsky's attribution to mass manipulation... LooseWilly Feb 2012 #82

I do not think the theory is wrong. joshcryer Feb 2012 #84

*used* by who, wrongly? LooseWilly Feb 2012 #90

Propaganda-based authorities. joshcryer Feb 2012 #104

It seems to me that a "technologist" would have to agree with Debord's critiques... LooseWilly Feb 2012 #116

Give me 30 minutes. joshcryer Feb 2012 #117

The best way to put it I think is with Erich Fromm's "To Have Or To Be?" joshcryer Feb 2012 #88

Uhhm, I have a favorite football team, I'm not a fan of football... and I don't have to see a game.. LooseWilly Feb 2012 #93

I never paid for his books. joshcryer Feb 2012 #102

I guess I wasn't clear... I'm not only not interested in paying for his sports books... LooseWilly Feb 2012 #105

He's a sports writer? joshcryer Feb 2012 #106

Or, maybe I don't feel the compunction to read authors solely based on your recommendation... LooseWilly Feb 2012 #114

"Stealing ideas from"? These ideas are uncontroversial, not unique, and shared by many socialist... joshcryer Feb 2012 #115

I like sports. I like to play sports. I like to watch sports. Muskypundit Feb 2012 #21

Hehe... there is only as much insult there as you choose to bring. Feel free to call me overbearing LooseWilly Feb 2012 #23

This x 1000 boxman15 Feb 2012 #55

The defensiveness in this thread Kaleko Feb 2012 #24

Chomsky comes off as a sad little man scowling at anything that causes anyone any amount of joy Muskypundit Feb 2012 #25

Nah, it's not a particularly unique observation, he just uses US-centric examples. joshcryer Feb 2012 #27

The fact that people feel stung by Chomsky's assertions Kaleko Feb 2012 #28

I see one post in this entire thread (currently 33 posts including this one) that appears "stung." joshcryer Feb 2012 #33

:-) Kaleko Feb 2012 #51

I merely do not like broad brush caricatures of something that isn't there. joshcryer Feb 2012 #69

The fact that you don't see something Kaleko Feb 2012 #71

But I do see something. joshcryer Feb 2012 #72

Yes, yes, and your presumption is Kaleko Feb 2012 #73

Nope, I can only make a convincing argument. joshcryer Feb 2012 #74

Goodonya Musky! Puzzledtraveller Feb 2012 #45

The focus is on the Super Bowl. On Super Bowl Sunday. joshcryer Feb 2012 #32

Chomsky is merely observering the spectacle. joshcryer Feb 2012 #26

I think the effects of sports are a convenient by-product for the powers that be... rucky Feb 2012 #35

I used to feel the same way. But here's how I see the value in sports now: pink-o Feb 2012 #37

You're describing diversion. That is Chomsky's point or, one of them. EFerrari Feb 2012 #38

But that's my point as well. Diverting the aggressive behavior pink-o Feb 2012 #39

Is it clear that competitive sports mitigate warfare? EFerrari Feb 2012 #41

Obviously, we can't prove a negative pink-o Feb 2012 #43

I kind of agree with this Shankapotomus Feb 2012 #121

Poor Noam trumad Feb 2012 #40

Wow, what a witty and intelligent comment. backscatter712 Feb 2012 #53

OK---how about this. trumad Feb 2012 #56

THIS is a post I can sink my teeth into. n/t cherokeeprogressive Feb 2012 #75

You wanna fight? LooseWilly Feb 2012 #107

Dime a dozen trumad Feb 2012 #122

Truman. LOL. nt Bonobo Feb 2012 #113

Games and bread. n/t fasttense Feb 2012 #42

"A Global Force for Good" GeorgeGist Feb 2012 #44

Chomsky can blow it out his ass Dreamer Tatum Feb 2012 #46

Boy, you really nailed him this time DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2012 #47

I nailed his opinion with mine. Dreamer Tatum Feb 2012 #48

Fair enough (one opinion vs. another). Sad little man? No. DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2012 #59

�Eternal boyhood is the dream of a depressing percentage of American males, and Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2012 #49

Rolling On Floor, Laughing My Ass Off... cherokeeprogressive Feb 2012 #76

Hehe... methinks that, if you don't need locker rooms... the quote doesn't apply to you. LooseWilly Feb 2012 #108

Tell me where the average male sports fan finds a locker room? cherokeeprogressive Feb 2012 #125

I wonder what the reaction to this post would be if it was after the World Cup. nt Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #50

I'm curious too... my reaction would be exactly the same... but, not being "everyone"... I remain LooseWilly Feb 2012 #111

Between sports and religion, I'd say mass mind-control has been refined to fine art. n/t backscatter712 Feb 2012 #52

"Not to gloat, but Japan won and the country is electrified!" - Bonobo, July 17, 2011... SidDithers Feb 2012 #54

I am honored to have my own personal stalker. nt Bonobo Feb 2012 #61

Just call me a "humorless, anal retentive Canadian"... SidDithers Feb 2012 #65

I did no such thing. Bonobo Feb 2012 #67

Link here: greyl Feb 2012 #97

I am a HUGE SCTV fan! nt Bonobo Feb 2012 #100

That might be true, but it's definitely irrelevant. nt greyl Feb 2012 #101

That link actually makes no material reference to the poster known as Sid Dithers. LooseWilly Feb 2012 #110

C'mon, consider the context. It's clear what the post meant. nt greyl Feb 2012 #112

You're a "humorless, anal retentive Canadian"... LooseWilly Feb 2012 #109

I remembered that, but my post #26 was more subtle. joshcryer Feb 2012 #68

Bread and games. The Romans knew back then that this Cleita Feb 2012 #57

There ya go!!!!! skypilot Feb 2012 #66

In other news... BiggJawn Feb 2012 #60

Chomsky must be a Patriots fan Enrique Feb 2012 #62

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Swede Feb 2012 #78

Even Chomsky admitted it was an over-simplification to make a point. Bonobo Feb 2012 #79

There has been ample consideration in this thread. joshcryer Feb 2012 #81

Really? I would love to see what you think you are remembering. Bonobo Feb 2012 #83

Eh, I've had enough of the authoritarian commodity fetishists. joshcryer Feb 2012 #85

Busy preparing the way for an invasion of Syria, I imagine. nt Bonobo Feb 2012 #86

You wanna invade Syria? joshcryer Feb 2012 #87

Oh me? Sorry no. I assumed YOU did because it would be consistent with your views RE Libya. Bonobo Feb 2012 #89

Ahh, I thought you felt the "authoritarian commodity fetishists" were preparing for that. joshcryer Feb 2012 #92

That kinda thing tends to happen when you call people "hypocrites" behind their backs, dude. nt Bonobo Feb 2012 #96

Nothing wrong with hypocrisy. We're all guilty of it. joshcryer Feb 2012 #99

Soccer fan clubs were vital to organizing the Egyptian revolution. LeftyMom Feb 2012 #95

You just beat me to that! bhikkhu Feb 2012 #98

If someone likes sports that's their business Shankapotomus Feb 2012 #120

I'm so glad there are smart people like Noam Chomsky to tell me what I should or shouldn't like. TheManInTheMac Feb 2012 #123