This Is What Saudi Arabia's First PSA For Violence Against Women Looks Like

[Warren DeMontague]

152. Okay, let's go through this slowly.

I think people don't interrogate the extent to which ideas spread in our culture to justify war influence their views of the Muslim world.

Well, this seems to be a lot of your problem- you assume, bascially, that no one has bothered to think any of this stuff through besides yourself, you've taken it upon yourself to "educate" the masses, and you're perpetually gobsmacked that folks here are not, all, ecstatic to be privileged enough to audit your lectures for free.

And you get awfully ... is angry an acceptable characterization? that people don't appreciate "education", even to the point of your going on upthread about how "I guess education is a dirty word"... no, it's not. But anyone can tell anyone else anything, presuming themselves in a position of some authority on the topic. That does not automatically confer the title "education" onto what they're attempting to do. When Ken Ham tells people that Jesus rode a dinosaur, he may think he's "educating" people (and he's awfully sure he's right) but the fact of the matter is, he's peddling a ridiculous line of flat-out bullshit. "education" doesn't enter into it.

I think people look down on foreign others while refusing to consider their own role as taxpayers in funding human rights abuses perpetrated by our government abroad. I find troubling that many look at Islam and Muslims with such disdain while showing no awareness of the particular historical and political circumstances that gave rise to Islamist extremism--conditions in which our own nation was central.

Yes, you do apparently think that, but you also are taking one and inventing the other from whole cloth. I don't understand why; you were around, for instance, on DU during much of the Bush Administration and the Iraq War. Did people here "not get it"? Were people unable to reconcile opposition to Islamic Fundamentalism with opposition to wars of choice then? No, they were not. Because we can walk and chew gum at the same time. And we can criticize totalitarian regimes and worldviews without always being in a position of somehow enabling invasions and wars. Likewise, one can understand the historical significance and fallout of Eisenhower and the CIA overthrowing Mossadegh, and still think Ahmadinejad is an asshat.

Now, as for "cultural imperialism" or the rest of it; I'm sorry, but I DO happen to believe that some worldviews, some outlooks, some basic ground rules and some basic approaches to governance, thought, logic and human rights ARE better than others. I do. I'm sure as shit not going to apologize for it. I have not seen anyone on DU argue that women who, themselves, want to wear hajibs or burqas should be prevented from doing so; but I *have* seen criticism of cultural institutions -upon penalty of arrest and jail, or worse- which force women to cover up. That was what the previous threads were about. To somehow transplant that into a line that people on DU are "mad because some women somewhere aren't wearing bikinis"... do you read this stuff before you write it? It'd be funny; seriously- if you weren't serious.

I see people imaging that we as Americans, and liberals in particular, are better than Muslims because we are not benighted by religion and we wear less clothing (for some freedom is directly measured in inverse proportion to the amount of clothing).

I believe freedom is better than a lack of freedom. I believe choice is better than restriction. I do. Whatever that makes me, I sure as hell feel that way; Saudi Arabia is, by most yardsticks, one of the most Totalitarian regimes on the planet. Whether that totalitarianism is based on someone's "religion and culture", doesn't make it right. North Korea has a xenophobic and racist culture and a religion which venerates the ruling family. Are the horrors perpetuated by that regime- the concentration camps holding families for 3 generations- are they to be excused because of belief systems?

How far down the road of excuses are we to go for peoples' "cultural practices"? The Death Penalty for Gay people? FGM? Some of these things are deeply ingrained, based on religion or tradition or some mix of whatever. Do they "deserve our respect"?

No, they are not. No, they do not. Because freedom is better than totalitarianism. It just IS. And one can say that, and mean it, without being a cultural imperialist or war-enabler. Now, I feel that freedom, liberation, and dare I say it education are internal processes- like the Zen parable of the goose in the bottle, there's no way to get the goose out of the bottle without breaking the bottle- the goose has to get itself out.

There's a song I like with the line "you aint gonna learn what you don't want to know"- that applies to all of us, indeed it does... but to erstwhile self-appointed "educators", sometimes, most of all.

And national liberation- or the liberation of peoples or groups- or the liberation of the self- is likewise an internal process. Occasionally interventions are probably unavoidable- WWII springs to mind- but generally, the way to get people out of their cages- real or mental- is to help them see the bars and figure out where the keys are.

As for your fixation on clothing; this has been said before and you've blown it off, so this will be the last time I'll say it; fighting for someone's right to wear (or not wear) what they choose is NOT the same thing as telling them what to do.

Some have gone so far as to claim that higher death rates of women in this country don't count because the murders are not religiously based, as though death is less consequential if its justification is secular.

....really. That's what they said? REALLY? Or did they say something else, and you've inverted the meaning, much as you have inverted people saying "women should be free to go topless" into people being "mad that any women anywhere wear shirts".

I, on the other hand, believe we do Muslim women no favors by disrespecting their religion--a core aspect of their identity-- or refusing to consider their views.

Except you're only considering the ones who espouse the position you like, just like everyone else in these arguments. And you're presuming to speak for them- assuming you're not a Middle Eastern Muslim Woman- just as much as anyone else here.

As for my ignore list, I recently cleared it out. I did not take you off for purposes of this thread or to respond to you in particular. Sorry to disappoint you there. Of course I will add people back if necessary. I know well enough your pattern. You are unlikely to risk a personal insult here. You're far more likely to gossip under cover of the clubhouse.

Now, THAT is projection. *snork*

Your old excuse about Sophia Loren is demonstratively false. My frustration with you had to do with your following me around the web posting girly pics in response to virtually every post. If I recall correctly, none were nearly as lovely as Sophia Loren. They were typical, unimaginative cheesecake photos. The point was you did it because you knew it bothered me, and you took particular pleasure from that fact. I've told you this before but my views on my own feelings aren't important enough to register in your thought process.

Actually, it's spot-on. Your memory of that is faulty; however, since meta is inaccessible- and that's where it took place- neither of us can "demonstratively" prove jack. I am fairly sure that you did, however, state that I "enjoy hurting people"...

now, how harmful the alleged unimaginative cheesecake bikinis may or may not have been, that was a ridiculous thing to say and frankly a lot nastier than anything I've ever aimed your way.

Fortunately for me, I guess, I don't get too worked up about random insults from random folks on the interwebs. C'est La Vie. People say silly shit. However, since I brought it up it obviously did "register in my thought process".