This Is What Saudi Arabia's First PSA For Violence Against Women Looks Like

[BainsBane]

157. . . .

Education: I know very little about the Muslim world. I've been able to learn enough for certain professional purposes, but my knowledge is woefully inadequate.
Sadly, the little I know seems to be more than many around here. What I did, rather than presume some authority, is to provide links to articles by Muslim feminists people could choose to read.

It's obvious people know very little because they take one act and attribute it to all of Islam, not even a particular country. There is no question Saudi Arabia is among the most oppressive regimes. Yet people here say things like "Islam is bad news," "Muslims hate women," and Islam is the source of misogyny. They show no interest in distinguishing the differences among Muslim nations or the understanding that historically Muslim women were afforded greater rights than in the West. I think this point important because it shows that the current reactionary bent among Islamist fundamentalists is not necessary or intrinsic to Islam itself, as many have argued. Now some ethnic Muslim feminists are secularists and agree that Islam is a source of oppression. Far more, however, continue to practice Islam and see power and control as the source of their oppression, as is the case in the first article I cited earlier in this thread.

You may think "freedom" is better, but your notion of freedom is the product of a capitalist, imperialist culture. You may think you can separate militarism from belief, but the ideas you and most of us--including my own--are framed by our own cultural experience. For Americans, our sense of national identity is predicated on a sense of superiority, we "the best country in the world," the "freest," etc. The socialist critiques of American freedom are more familiar to many. The idea that freedom is constricted by the marketplace, that it doesn't allow many a base standard of living or access to decent medical care, which contrasts with countries like Cuba. Some Muslims, I'm sure, have their own critiques of American notions of freedom.

I don't defend any of the human rights abuses you posit. My position is very simple. Read what Muslim feminists say rather than preaching at them. They don't support the atrocities you suggest, but not all identify veiling as a major concern. Some, however, do. Some see Islam as forming a moral basis for gender equality and women's liberation, while a smaller number are secular in their approach to women's rights. Their notion of freedom need not mirror yours to be legitimate. In fact, they may consider your view of freedom oppressive. Reading what they have to say is the way to determine that.

Someone did make that point to me about the deaths not being relevant because they were not religiously motivated. You can find that in the most recent thread about Amina.

Your straw woman about FEMEN's nudity is tiresome beyond belief. I didn't raise the issue and have no intention of defending some imaginary position you attribute to a fictive feminist. I will, however, direct you to this recent comment from a former Brazilian activist in FEMEN. She grew frustrated over the lack of concern FEMEN displayed for the cultural reality of feminism in Brazil, which this woman argues has a longer history than feminism in the Ukraine. I know zilch about the Ukraine so I couldn't say whether she is right. http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=433401410030315&id=117869604995016 A number of Muslim feminists regard FEMEN as racist. The first article I provided makes that argument.

I don't know how you think I'm presenting positions "I like," as though it makes any difference to me whether a woman chooses to veil or if she is secular or religious. What I care about is that people respect women's voices. There are plenty of different positions to read, and hundreds of feminist groups already active in the Muslim world. In this thread and elsewhere people have denied the possibility of feminist movements among Muslim women. Most show no interest in distinguishing between Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Turkey or Tunisia. The oft repeated references to Islam and Muslims or as X or Y make that clear. When I provided links to articles above, someone said she refused to reach "apologists," and that there were no Muslim feminists. The articles are far from apologies. They critique religious based patriarchy. Only one person seemed interested in reading any of the articles I pointed to. No, I don't just point to women that express what I want to hear. I don't have a preference of what I want them to care about. What I want is for people who say they care about the position of Muslim women to take some time to read what some of those women are doing to promote their own liberation. Is that really so objectionable?

As for Meta, you are actually sitting their telling me I don't know what bothered me? You are not the authority on my feelings. That is one thing I can be certain I know far better than you. What you did was refuse to consider how I felt and rewrote in your mind an interpretation that suits your particular agenda in singling out certain feminists for scorn. I absolutely did say you enjoyed hurting people. I see no other reason why you would continually do something after someone has told you it bothers them. You clearly meant to cause offense.

Unimaginative cheesecake is the nastiest thing that could be said, nastier than endless coffee clatch gossiping threads in your clubhouse? Really? Nastier than continually repeating insults you have been told bother someone? Nastier than using the men's group to belittle rape victims who are clearly in tremendous pain? Not even close. Heaven knows I've made more than my share of inappropriate comments and done some supremely stupid things in life, but I have never deliberately been cruel, particularly to those undergoing trauma. I'm not seeing a reference to unimaginative cheesecake as rating very highly on the scale of inappropriate behavior.