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Nay

(12,051 posts)
19. Not celebrating it, no, because I think kids do so much better with an intact family.
Sun May 5, 2013, 11:16 AM
May 2013

dumping marriage isn't an "unalloyed good" at all -- I can't speak for low-income females because I'm not one, but if I put myself into their shoes mentally I wouldn't be able to come up with a good reason to marry the men available to me. The fact that the LIF doesn't just go ahead and marry anyway, as she would have done, say, in the 1940's, is the big change. Sure, women married low-life men back then, too, but as you say, families stepped in and helped because people lived near their families. And there was serious pressure on men from the local community to straighten up. Now, for working-class young men, we have rap culture! It's the perfect storm of shit! I have often maintained that we no longer have a culture in the US, but a commercial replica of one. And this commercial culture exists not to form a society that works, more or less, for the humans in it, but to extract the most cash from everyone's pocket. That is not a sustainable way of running a society, and it has all sorts of bad effects.

You're perfectly right about dumping marriage but not dumping men. That cycling in and out of boyfriends definitely isn't a good thing. I don't know how you'd fix that, other than focus on a full-employment society so men could be more stable and be more marriageable. Tragically, I don't see that happening in my lifetime.

I don't know why high-income females get married and stay married, other than they can see that 2 incomes are better than one, and the kids and family unit are put first in the minds of both the parents. Have there been any studies on why people in this income category stay married? Could it simply be that divorce would severely hurt both their lifestyles? That would be a kinda crass reason to stay married, but....historically, money bought you the best wife you could afford, and that was that. Maybe high-income parents focus on helping their kids, and as long as their relationship is not of the throwing-plates variety, they muddle along? It would be interesting to find out.

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k&r for exposure. n/t Laelth May 2013 #1
Well, well, well. "Financially independent women who both earn the bulk Nay May 2013 #2
Study of various historical 'underclasses' shows one of the predictable tactics of capital HiPointDem May 2013 #4
Exactly. They are doing to the white underclass just what they did to the black underclass -- Nay May 2013 #5
i don't think that it's really "culturally unwilling". i think it's a bit more complicated. when HiPointDem May 2013 #6
I still think 'culturally unwilling' fits, though, because doing women's work seems to make men Nay May 2013 #7
I think it's a mistake to view things exclusively through the lens of male/female, because the HiPointDem May 2013 #9
I think you have to look at the micro AND the macro. Most people just trying to get along in Nay May 2013 #10
"EXCEPT by making individual choices that work for them in the here and now". the choices HiPointDem May 2013 #12
If by essentialist you mean that men and women have definite characteristics that will always Nay May 2013 #13
likewise. HiPointDem May 2013 #14
You both forgot the name calling and insulting mythology May 2013 #16
easy to forget it when one's co-discussant doesn't lead with it. HiPointDem May 2013 #17
It is, isn't it? I tend to bug out of threads that get nasty, as so many of them do. Again, I have Nay May 2013 #21
This is the kind of post that makes me wish I could rec individual posts. redqueen May 2013 #8
Well, thanks. Nay May 2013 #11
"dumping marriage," though, isn't an unalloyed 'good,' just better than the alternative -- maybe, HiPointDem May 2013 #15
Not celebrating it, no, because I think kids do so much better with an intact family. Nay May 2013 #19
Women hold on to high income men Fumesucker May 2013 #18
Low-income men are not always bad marriage partners; Mr Nay and I are high-income, and we know Nay May 2013 #20
Evidently you are now changing your tune.. Fumesucker May 2013 #30
This message was self-deleted by its author galileoreloaded May 2013 #25
+1000 YoungDemCA May 2013 #26
i've got a great idea... galileoreloaded May 2013 #29
I read the whole article senseandsensibility May 2013 #3
Nothing surprising here... PopeOxycontinI May 2013 #22
Or, as the late, great Daniel Patrick Moynihan got into trouble for saying - hedgehog May 2013 #23
nothing to do with anything the late unlamented pat moynihan ever said. HiPointDem May 2013 #24
Community issues are a product of economic circumstances... YoungDemCA May 2013 #27
I think Moynihan saw it as a chicken and egg problem or feed-back loop - which enraged people hedgehog May 2013 #28
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