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Recursion

(56,582 posts)
Thu May 16, 2013, 09:46 AM May 2013

I'm much more concerned about who has a gun than what gun they have [View all]

Over the past few decades we've seen by my count 4 major types of legislative initiatives about gun rights and restrictions:

1. Regulations of features and types of guns, eg the Hughes amendment and the assault weapons ban.

2. Restrictions on who can purchase guns, from whom, eg the Brady Law and the ongoing attempts to close the "gun show loophole" (a name I hate, but we're stuck with it)

3. Expansions of who can carry guns in public, eg the transition of multiple states to "shall-issue" (anyone not legally disqualified can receive a concealed carry permit)

4. Expansions of where they can carry those guns, eg concealed/open carry in parks, churches, nonsecure airport space, etc.

1 and 2 have been (to the first approximation) pushed by Democrats and resisted by Republicans, and done at a Federal level (though the recent state gun laws in NY, MD, etc. probably represent a tectonic shift towards state action by Democrats).

3 and 4 have been (again, approximately) pushed by Republicans and resisted by Democrats, and done largely in the state houses (though Republicans are now trying to consolidate some of their statewide gains Federally (concealed-carry reciprocity, carry in national parks, etc.)).

Lesson one that comes to mind is that dealing with issues state by state can be much more effective, particularly if it stays under the national radar.

In general, I like 2 and 3, and dislike 1 and 4, so I don't really have a partisan "home" on the gun issue (and I'm not remotely a single issue voter on this). I like 2 in particular because that's what really worries me: some people can be trusted with guns, and some can't. If someone can't be trusted with a gun, I don't give a damn whether it's an AR-15 or a revolver. And if he can be trusted with a gun, the type of gun he has isn't something I worry about. There's not some mystical power in an AR-15 that turns people into criminals. Magazine limits are interesting, and I don't think they're unconstitutional or an undue burden on gun owners, but the vast majority of people who use guns in murders never need more than the first or second bullet.

It is to the detriment of everyone that the only thing that gets us talking about gun control nationally is random mass shootings. They are horrible, they are frightening, and they soak up media attention, but just to be blunt they aren't the problem. The problem is not that dozens of people are killed every year in mass shootings, but that nearly 10,000 people are killed every year in "normal" shootings and nearly 20,000 people use guns to take their own lives.

It's detrimental because it makes us ask the wrong questions, such as "how can we keep the mentally ill from getting guns?". Mentally ill people are orders of magnitude more likely to be victims of gun crime than perpetrators. And while only a bare majority of mass shooters use handguns, essentially all "normal" shootings are done with handguns, as well as nearly all gun suicides.

It's detrimental because mass shootings are much more likely to be done with first-purchase weapons than other shootings, so we concentrate on first-sale restrictions rather than investigating trafficking (though that said I completely support 100% background checks on all transfers, preferably done through a federal firearms licensing scheme).

It's detrimental because (donning asbestos suit now) it makes people ignore the laws that the GOP and NRA are blocking the government from enforcing and attempt to pass new laws that somehow won't be equally hamstrung.

In my opinion, fully funding and staffing the ATF (including a permanent director) and instructing them to engage in some high profile stings of shady illegal dealers and buyers would do much, much more to reduce gun crime than passing new laws (which I don't trust would be enforced any better than the current ones are).

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Universal background checks and registration would provide the biggest 'bang' for the buck. rdharma May 2013 #1
With 50,000 hand guns stolen a year, it means anyone can get a gun. Anyone. n-t Logical May 2013 #2
I agree. What do you do about that? Recursion May 2013 #3
Those are the low-hanging fruit. If no guns were stolen ... JustABozoOnThisBus May 2013 #33
IF you had someone you wouldn't trust to have a gun, and jmg257 May 2013 #4
The revolver is easier to conceal, the rifle is easier to reload Recursion May 2013 #5
The weapon of choice is shifting to the relatively short high capacity and rapid fire AR style flamin lib May 2013 #14
The revolver also typically has 6/7 shots w/o reload, the AR has 30/31 hi-power rifle rounds. jmg257 May 2013 #18
The power of a 357 magnum is comparable to a 223 centerfire Recursion May 2013 #20
Its more fixating on gun deaths. And the notion of reducing them by substantially jmg257 May 2013 #26
Far too many laws are intentionally un-inforceable. flamin lib May 2013 #6
We need traceability to work in one direction but not the other Recursion May 2013 #9
I think there should be records tracing the gun from the manufacturer upaloopa May 2013 #17
I'd like that too, but I don't see a way to get it Recursion May 2013 #23
I don't want law abiding people being bothered upaloopa May 2013 #37
Permit them all, but strict registration for them all. geek tragedy May 2013 #7
I'm for registration, personally, but man that's a hard hill to climb Recursion May 2013 #8
I think you could get registration as part of a global geek tragedy May 2013 #10
Yeah, true; I don't think either side wants to give in to the other Recursion May 2013 #13
Part of the issue is that there's no bargaining geek tragedy May 2013 #22
Agreed 100% Recursion May 2013 #25
But, who's going to negotiate such a deal? geek tragedy May 2013 #30
And there it is. We need conservative buy-in from the start. So, stalemate again Recursion May 2013 #32
We need gun manufacturers buy-in from the start, actually. geek tragedy May 2013 #35
You know, Biden didn't meet with NSSF or any manufacturers that I know of Recursion May 2013 #38
"I doubt anyone who is compliant with the insurance requirement would be much of a problem" Chan790 May 2013 #46
Well, DC registers handguns already. That's how they "banned" them. Recursion May 2013 #49
The number of people that can be killed in a few minutes upaloopa May 2013 #11
True, but that net gets very wide very quick and catches most guns out there Recursion May 2013 #12
That's the old "we can't stop everything so we shouldn't try to stop anything" bull shit line upaloopa May 2013 #19
No, it's not that Recursion May 2013 #21
But as we discussed numerous times, there are easy ways to address that, bills have tried jmg257 May 2013 #27
I don't know shit about gun parts and don't care to know upaloopa May 2013 #29
OK, so you'll force Bushmaster to change the shape of its grip. You have that right Recursion May 2013 #31
Well if that is so knowable than just maybe the law can be upaloopa May 2013 #34
You would have to ban semi-automatics as a platform to fix that Recursion May 2013 #36
Again that is because of gun manufacturer money upaloopa May 2013 #40
Very little? premium May 2013 #41
I have a sense for euphemism Recursion May 2013 #43
Yes, it is popular with the base, premium May 2013 #47
Sen. Feinstein's mild AWB went down in flames, premium May 2013 #39
It wouldn't as long as the legislators are bought upaloopa May 2013 #44
Fair enough. nt. premium May 2013 #48
True, but small capacity handguns are by far the bigger problem. nt geek tragedy May 2013 #24
We had some regulatory success with the "ring of fire" gunmakers in the 1990s Recursion May 2013 #28
We could play misery poker here... Orsino May 2013 #15
Full auto has been illegal for 80 years or so and there's no real movement to change that Recursion May 2013 #16
Why? All gun owners are potential murderers bowens43 May 2013 #42
You know, we had 41 constructive posts before you... (nt) Recursion May 2013 #45
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