General Discussion

truebluegreen

(9,033 posts)

199. Ought implies can.

Wed May 22, 2013, 08:03 PM

May 2013

Any one person can only do so much. And I have already taken a number of creatures--all special and all unique--into my care. So in this case, if I can help the creatures in my charge I will do that, before considering what other hypothetical creatures might need. There are always more...and to me each is exceptional, and individual, and special. But I can't save them all.

That's me. In 2008 I paid $5000 (ouch) for a splenectomy for my 8-yr-old 90 lb German Shepherd/Doberman/something else? cross Charlie. He lived, and flourished, and as a senior statesman is still with us today. I would do it again--thank Dog I've never had to--but it was within my power and he needed it.

Sorry, but your response above seems predicated on rationing out a fixed amount of benefit to the largest possible number of dogs. It sounds OK in theory but seems heartless in practice.

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Dogs are not people, does anyone else find it weird how some seem to equate the two? [View all] quinnox May 2013 OP

it is crazy datasuspect May 2013 #1

Simplistic bullshit. Hissyspit May 2013 #70

You try to equate what that poster said to... Silent3 May 2013 #299

Nonsense. Hissyspit May 2013 #305

Pet owners live longer. ErikJ May 2013 #311

I agree, it is unbalanced. Usually dogs are better than most people. Katashi_itto May 2013 #71

+1,000,000,000 BuelahWitch May 2013 #76

+another million MNBrewer May 2013 #86

Post removed Post removed May 2013 #94

Floyd, you're spot on. Typical Anthropocentric Crap. byronius May 2013 #129

Actualy Stryder May 2013 #328

Thank You, Thank you life long demo May 2013 #170

+ a million truebluegreen May 2013 #181

and so are cats DesertFlower May 2013 #191

+ Several million more Gemini Cat May 2013 #234

and dolphins, whales, & elephants hopemountain May 2013 #263

+ a gazillion. forestpath May 2013 #238

+ yet another million CrawlingChaos May 2013 #193

Agreed Dragonfli May 2013 #208

The more I know people DBoon May 2013 #239

As the character, Gordon Gekko, observed in Wall Street: Laelth May 2013 #281

PETA doesnt believe in pet ownership. So where you coming from? ErikJ May 2013 #225

We werent talking about PETA so where are you coming from? Katashi_itto May 2013 #268

Here's the OP ErikJ May 2013 #269

That subtext, still doesnt make his "observation" anymore correct Katashi_itto May 2013 #270

OK, it completely threw me. ErikJ May 2013 #272

Yup, although misreading it could happen to anyone, the OP is fairly incoherent in his screed, Katashi_itto May 2013 #274

That's not uncommon with flame-bait. Hissyspit May 2013 #309

You have a point. I didnt look at it like that before. It is pretty much flame bait isnt it. Katashi_itto May 2013 #312

Wait warrior1 May 2013 #2

How long? kentauros May 2013 #3

Ayup alcibiades_mystery May 2013 #10

Do you really want to go there? randome May 2013 #4

Nice monocle. Did you tie that tie? Buzz Clik May 2013 #128

Yes, I always have thought that. Not in a disrespectful way, but closeupready May 2013 #5

plus, they can't go to heaven datasuspect May 2013 #6

Neither can people because there's no such thing. sinkingfeeling May 2013 #14

I think datasuspect would agree with you. Arugula Latte May 2013 #21

james brown had soul datasuspect May 2013 #96

Well, that's an entirely separate level, but I guess closeupready May 2013 #24

i'd like to see a worldwide cataclysmic event datasuspect May 2013 #28

Everyone assumes they will be among the survivors. MineralMan May 2013 #41

Well, if I'm not, I won't care anymore. nt oldhippie May 2013 #48

Well, that's true enough. MineralMan May 2013 #51

They are living beings so they also have souls. RebelOne May 2013 #30

that isn't what the bible says datasuspect May 2013 #31

That's why it's called "Soul Food" snooper2 May 2013 #165

bwa! Kali May 2013 #202

But that's simply not true. RoccoR5955 May 2013 #34

Where did you come from? life long demo May 2013 #172

what about the pets that were dicks? OriginalGeek May 2013 #256

as a Catholic I was were taught they do have souls DBoon May 2013 #242

but they can be blessed? nt hopemountain May 2013 #266

Yes, some churches do an annual blessing of the beasts! bettyellen May 2013 #295

And churches in Siena bless their race horses before the Palio, a famous race. bettyellen May 2013 #296

That's absurd BainsBane May 2013 #246

Agree 100% nt nadine_mn May 2013 #255

They have the same exact rights as people. ZombieHorde May 2013 #87

Human no, part of the family, Yes! mrdmk May 2013 #7

Clearly the human animal is unique and different enough to assign value to life arbitrarily NoOneMan May 2013 #8

Perfect point! n/t UtahLib May 2013 #20

When it's your own furry family member, it is equal Warpy May 2013 #9

Yes, all my dogs have been my children, RebelOne May 2013 #32

dogs are not people Fresh_Start May 2013 #11

I like your response. CrispyQ May 2013 #105

I'm thinking pesticides will eventually kill us all Fresh_Start May 2013 #175

Love your response. I agree with it 100%. eom BlueCaliDem May 2013 #228

I say you can believe whatever you want and I can treat my animals sinkingfeeling May 2013 #12

+++++ hlthe2b May 2013 #15

It is a sign of a sociopath, they openly lack empathy towards the other animals. Dragonfli May 2013 #214

+ a trillion Jamastiene May 2013 #235

I think there is some validity to your point quakerboy May 2013 #271

They are acting on instinct. Cats are predators and born with instinctive hunting behaviors Dragonfli May 2013 #290

im facinated as to where you have learned all this galileoreloaded May 2013 #324

Anthropology classes Dragonfli May 2013 #325

fascinating what passes for an education. galileoreloaded May 2013 #327

you could follow the 19th century view, many do, but anthropology is a real science Dragonfli May 2013 #329

well, with a double masters in sociology and psych galileoreloaded May 2013 #331

i consider cats and dogs 'people' fizzgig May 2013 #13

I firmly believe that love of one's pets, makes for a far better (more compassionate) human being hlthe2b May 2013 #18

Good point. I have never known that to not be true. tridim May 2013 #46

i agree 100 percent fizzgig May 2013 #264

Yes, dogs & cats are people indeed Bryn May 2013 #179

isn't that the truth? fizzgig May 2013 #265

of course not hfojvt May 2013 #16

Actually, I tink cats are our overlords... joeybee12 May 2013 #27

yep, we are servants to the cat CountAllVotes May 2013 #84

Cats are far superior to mere humans. MineralMan May 2013 #44

If you have ever had the privilege of taking care of a cat...you will laugh at this Horse with no Name May 2013 #79

I feed mine before I go to bed AgingAmerican May 2013 #90

Oh my..I thought I was the only one nadine_mn May 2013 #258

My cat said the same thing! And he reads Latin and Greek in addition to speaking fluent "cat." anneboleyn May 2013 #167

I understand that some people think that animals are worth as much as fellow humans. Gormy Cuss May 2013 #17

Perhaps not on an abstract level BainsBane May 2013 #19

Ditto. n/t RebelOne May 2013 #33

same here.... chillfactor May 2013 #254

"Cat" Stevens had this to say about dogs and unconditional love: Art_from_Ark May 2013 #259

You, I guess, still believes in the 19th century notion that we are not animals like Cleita May 2013 #22

that's true - people are not anywhere near as trustworthy Douglas Carpenter May 2013 #23

+10.000 smirkymonkey May 2013 #187

Humans are not any more or less special than any other creatures that inhabit this earth. MadrasT May 2013 #25

^^^^^^ This (The title of Post #25) n/t UTUSN May 2013 #104

it is weird to equate the two yes whatthehey May 2013 #26

Making what claim? Hissyspit May 2013 #58

Tell that to the dogs Puzzledtraveller May 2013 #29

Too cool for words. nt Deep13 May 2013 #38

They're not remotely equal. Lizzie Poppet May 2013 #35

That's not always the cause. Deep13 May 2013 #36

Is this sarcasm life long demo May 2013 #174

"Heartless" is one word. Deep13 May 2013 #186

Could anyone answer the same question if asked life long demo May 2013 #230

re $2K operation=get a new dog truebluegreen May 2013 #183

I think it's worthwhile to consider if it's ethical to pay for an expensive operation for one dog... JVS May 2013 #192

Ought implies can. truebluegreen May 2013 #199

As long as you are throwing cash around, how about a grant to continue my research... Deep13 May 2013 #200

I'm not made out of money. truebluegreen May 2013 #203

I have never met *anyone* who actually gives equal status to all living things. lumberjack_jeff May 2013 #226

Well, discursively they value all mammals. Deep13 May 2013 #261

Some people treat their pets as if they were human, though. MineralMan May 2013 #37

That's why I think that a police dog is not the same as a cop. Arctic Dave May 2013 #39

Dogs in loving families are generally considered to be part of the family tridim May 2013 #40

I was taught in philosophy that animals are brutes upaloopa May 2013 #42

I aspire to be as good as every dog I have ever known Coyote_Bandit May 2013 #43

Perfect answer. sibelian May 2013 #55

They are not people because, well. Coyote_Bandit May 2013 #63

:) sibelian May 2013 #73

so you try not to pee and poop on the carpet? datasuspect May 2013 #97

We should slash the federal education budget and use it to fund the purchase of chew toys Orrex May 2013 #45

Totally agree... dogs aren't capable of outright vindictiveness, hatred and sadism like humans kysrsoze May 2013 #47

Interesting angel823 May 2013 #49

To equate dogs with people Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #50

And then there is the whole issue of the mice... Dragonfli May 2013 #218

Sure, but it took the dolphin's "Save the Humans" campaign to get it done. n/t Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #232

Animals feel attachment to each other, to us, fear, pain, are intelligent, conscious. Hissyspit May 2013 #52

You win this thread! idwiyo May 2013 #166

SOME dogs are worth more than SOME allegedly "human" beings. n/t TygrBright May 2013 #53

Dogs often have these same types of conversations among themselves. Buns_of_Fire May 2013 #54

I've never met a dog that I didn't like or who comes across as pretentious, obnoxious, petulant... LanternWaste May 2013 #56

Have you ever met a person who chewed your shoes to pieces? Orrex May 2013 #67

I've run into people who like to shit all over others' posts kysrsoze May 2013 #77

Nope. Still a pointless comparison. Orrex May 2013 #82

Well, then I'll discredit humans for their propensity to commit evil acts kysrsoze May 2013 #89

Adult dogs also hunt in packs and will tear humans to pieces. Orrex May 2013 #99

That was a pathetic argument. Maybe coyotes would attack a baby kysrsoze May 2013 #114

So you appeal to dog-worship in order to deny that dog-worship is a religion? Kooky. Orrex May 2013 #122

Well, then I can't explain why you have such disdain for dog lovers, Mr. Spock kysrsoze May 2013 #134

Predictably, you attack the person who questions your religion Orrex May 2013 #135

This message was self-deleted by its author kysrsoze May 2013 #140

This message was self-deleted by its author kysrsoze May 2013 #141

Predictably, you attack my feelings, opinion, etc., as my "religion." I simply love my animals kysrsoze May 2013 #142

Nope--now you're changing the discussion. Orrex May 2013 #162

Do you really believe your own incredibly reaching claims? kysrsoze May 2013 #196

Nope--wrong again Orrex May 2013 #206

Religious zealot? Come on. You've got to do better than that kysrsoze May 2013 #215

Very well said. UtahLib May 2013 #209

When you see one of those, let me know Orrex May 2013 #217

Oh, I understand your views. I just don't agree kysrsoze May 2013 #219

I wasn't replying to you. Orrex May 2013 #221

I'm not upset at all. This exchange is hilarious kysrsoze May 2013 #222

Yes. I call them infants. LanternWaste May 2013 #81

More to the point, people get pissy when you question their religion Orrex May 2013 #83

Which I believe I addressed earlier with... LanternWaste May 2013 #95

This thread is full of dog worship, not to mention anthopomorphizing of dogs. Orrex May 2013 #111

Is it anthropomorphizing or just greater awareness on shared traits previously claimed as only Hissyspit May 2013 #310

They are family members BainsBane May 2013 #267

I have no problem with the claim that dogs are family members Orrex May 2013 #289

I have. quakerboy May 2013 #275

So, essentially.... sibelian May 2013 #280

In some ways quakerboy May 2013 #314

you think you are special G_j May 2013 #57

Yes it is weird, just as crazy as people that want to ciminalize a breed of dog. Rex May 2013 #59

I find things strange quakerboy May 2013 #276

Small furry people as far as I'm concerned. sibelian May 2013 #60

Guess I'm a whacked out extremist then. pecwae May 2013 #61

I'm not going to blame anyone for caring that much. sofa king May 2013 #62

Awesome reply. :) n/t OneGrassRoot May 2013 #64

I've known of dogs that have better attributes than some people.... snappyturtle May 2013 #65

Love dogs, always have. But think its a bit goofy jmg257 May 2013 #66

Yyyyyyup cherokeeprogressive May 2013 #68

I say I'd rather know a dog, than you. And I'm a cat person. nt justiceischeap May 2013 #69

lol, It looks like a whole lot of repliers should seriously consider joining PETA, if they aren't a quinnox May 2013 #72

Perhaps you should join the Republican Party kysrsoze May 2013 #78

That was good!!!!! life long demo May 2013 #178

:D easttexaslefty May 2013 #194

I don't understand how being capable of empathy towards living things is "colorful" Dragonfli May 2013 #220

Absolutely. Dogs are BETTER than people. Myrina May 2013 #74

Absolutely! Cats are people. Tierra_y_Libertad May 2013 #75

They may not be human. Hatchling May 2013 #80

There is no objective reason to believe one atom is better or worse than any other atom. ZombieHorde May 2013 #85

I wonder if this hypothetical situation might settle the dust. randome May 2013 #88

funny, I was thinking about posting a thread like that quinnox May 2013 #91

Answering wouldn't be the important result, though. Giving the dilemma some thought is good enough. randome May 2013 #98

Ill answer it Floyd_Gondolli May 2013 #100

Wow. I think you'd be in the minority but your honesty is appreciated! randome May 2013 #107

I suspect that some would answer that way quinnox May 2013 #113

Post removed Post removed May 2013 #117

Hey. My daughters are adorable! randome May 2013 #118

Honestly I couldn't care less Floyd_Gondolli May 2013 #120

Whoops! I had a sudden case of post-itis. Time for me to pull back! randome May 2013 #123

We can change the hypothetical subjects to their dogs and you! kysrsoze May 2013 #108

Whoa! Did not see that coming! randome May 2013 #112

I'm just kidding. I don't like hypotheticals, b/c they're just that. See how easily things change? kysrsoze May 2013 #159

i would kill the puppy to save the child datasuspect May 2013 #93

I'm sure the vast majority of people would choose the same. randome May 2013 #103

it would have to be a very bizarre situation datasuspect May 2013 #106

Oh, crap! I wasn't specific enough! randome May 2013 #109

If the scenario involved a dog instead of a puppy, I'm sure the DOG would choose the child, truebluegreen May 2013 #185

Good point. randome May 2013 #233

Unless that child quakerboy May 2013 #277

Sorry. Cindy Lu can't go to the dentist because I spent $2k on the dog. n/t lumberjack_jeff May 2013 #229

how about a puppy vs the life of some grown up asshole like Koch Brothers JI7 May 2013 #250

This message was self-deleted by its author AtomicKitten May 2013 #92

Not people??? Libertas1776 May 2013 #101

But as other people have noted, intelligence and "civilization" aren't the only considerations here. nomorenomore08 May 2013 #147

Oh Libertas1776 May 2013 #154

It all depends on what one means by "better." nomorenomore08 May 2013 #157

Well, we make good buddies... Libertas1776 May 2013 #160

My dog is a better person than most of the people I come across. hobbit709 May 2013 #102

"The older I get and the more I see of life and its people, the more I like my dog"...Pascal byeya May 2013 #110

They are. Lady Freedom Returns May 2013 #115

Humans are not all that nice or giving or caring at times. Jennicut May 2013 #116

+1 Buzz Clik May 2013 #126

Actually, the Bible says animals do have spirits. raging moderate May 2013 #119

Fine, that wasn't what this thread is about though quinnox May 2013 #121

I say equal or not, it's wrong to set them on fire for a laugh Scootaloo May 2013 #124

This is a fight --war -- that could only occur on a liberal bulletin board. Buzz Clik May 2013 #125

One truly catastrophic worldwide disaster and you'll see how animalistic humans really are Arcanetrance May 2013 #127

"Dogs are not people, and barking is not speech". Nye Bevan May 2013 #130

I wonder if dogs ever get frustrated that humans never life long demo May 2013 #189

You don't have to like dogs, you don't have to like cats hollysmom May 2013 #131

I say you exhibit little empathy and a gift for generalization. And for tempests and teapots. nolabear May 2013 #132

My heavens there must be some very insecure "People" if love of one's pet gets them so hlthe2b May 2013 #133

Well, of course dogs are not 'people' REP May 2013 #136

Good response... Phentex May 2013 #144

Very nice, thank you kysrsoze May 2013 #145

A drowning child or a drowning dog? earthside May 2013 #137

Not to go to far off... Libertas1776 May 2013 #150

A very nuanced answer! randome May 2013 #152

Oh for Pete's sake. easttexaslefty May 2013 #201

I don't find it weird at all... Phentex May 2013 #138

No dogs are not humans but I treat my best friend much better than most treat their children and Thinkingabout May 2013 #139

My husband's guide dog saved his life twice. Yeah, I'd say some dogs are equal to and sometimes liberal_at_heart May 2013 #143

we are all sentient beings. I think it's totally crazy that some people are so species-centric magical thyme May 2013 #146

I'm more of a cat person, honestly, but I do like (most) dogs. nomorenomore08 May 2013 #148

no dogs are not people but the specific dog i love is more important to me La Lioness Priyanka May 2013 #149

I love my GSD but when it comes down to it people win out over dogs. rl6214 May 2013 #151

If you don't get it, you don't get it Blue_Tires May 2013 #153

I don't equate dogs with people. former9thward May 2013 #155

"It is the capacity to suffer that matters, thucythucy May 2013 #156

dogs are people too... ileus May 2013 #158

At the least, they're a species which has been bred to love and depend on humans. nomorenomore08 May 2013 #163

When the chips are down American's rally around the flag. ileus May 2013 #161

Except for dogs. They rally around the nearest tree or fire plug. randome May 2013 #168

If a child and a pet were both trapped in a burning building, which would you rescue? Major Nikon May 2013 #164

I would do the same as I would do if there were two people trapped in a burning building. liberal_at_heart May 2013 #169

It's a hypothetical question Major Nikon May 2013 #173

And as with most hypotheticals, it has little to do with reality. Hissyspit May 2013 #247

More like all hypothetical questions Major Nikon May 2013 #252

If there was a house burning down with a liberal and a republican in it sibelian May 2013 #298

That question is irrelevant to the discussion of dog importance Orrex May 2013 #303

I suppose one could come up with all sorts of other questions and proceed to impeach them Major Nikon May 2013 #316

The thought experiment doesn't answer the question you created it for. Hissyspit May 2013 #306

It does Major Nikon May 2013 #315

How would I know only one could be saved? Hissyspit May 2013 #317

How would you know they could? Major Nikon May 2013 #318

How do I know she couldn't get them all? Hissyspit May 2013 #319

It doesn't matter Major Nikon May 2013 #321

I'm not obfuscating at all. Hissyspit May 2013 #322

I suppose an alternative is... Major Nikon May 2013 #332

I used to think as you. But as I grow older I've come to realize we humans are often Doremus May 2013 #171

I like dogs better than most people. MrSlayer May 2013 #176

I like dogs a whole lot more than Worried senior May 2013 #177

No, I don't think it's weird or crazy at all. n/t KarenS May 2013 #180

Actually I prefer some dogs to some people Rosa Luxemburg May 2013 #182

Dogs are property Go Vols May 2013 #184

Ick. Dogs are property? truebluegreen May 2013 #188

Yes, Dogs and Cats and Goldfish are property Demo_Chris May 2013 #190

Dogs & people are very different. Dogs don't screw each other over for money. DirkGently May 2013 #195

yeah but they might fight to injury over the last crunchy Kali May 2013 #212

That's totally principled though. They're honest about their intentions. DirkGently May 2013 #334

I'd rather spend time with my dogs than human beings like you. tabasco May 2013 #197

in so many ways dogs are better than people nt Celldweller May 2013 #198

no weirder than assuming that all such people are broken or lacking good human relationships fishwax May 2013 #204

equal, not exaclty, but i find my cat's life is worth more than a lot of people's dionysus May 2013 #205

You say that likes it's a bad thing , ....curios why newmember May 2013 #207

No. nt Raine May 2013 #210

The way we treat the most helpless among us shows how civilized we are. baldguy May 2013 #211

I only have one point to make DainBramaged May 2013 #213

LOL! Come on, DB. You read it here. flvegan May 2013 #251

Just dogs, yep if the DU says they are just dgs they are just dogs..... DainBramaged May 2013 #294

Why yes, I do. Dogs only lie about whether or not you've fed them recently. winter is coming May 2013 #216

Two different species, one of which is more dependable and obedient! WinkyDink May 2013 #223

There is a strong strain of misanthropy. lumberjack_jeff May 2013 #224

I am under no illusions that my dog is human... NaturalHigh May 2013 #227

Because, in many ways, dogs are SUPERIOR jazzimov May 2013 #231

Don't be silly. Jamastiene May 2013 #236

Ego is a funny thing only shared by humans. flvegan May 2013 #237

The Democrats won. Iggo May 2013 #241

+1 Hissyspit May 2013 #248

Dogs are not people....Dogs are only a reflection of people. kentuck May 2013 #240

Paleolithic humans knew enough to disagree DBoon May 2013 #243

Don't be silly of course dogs aren't people... one_voice May 2013 #244

I'm a yeller dog Democrat... kentuck May 2013 #245

Your title does not match jazzimov May 2013 #249

Dogs aren't people...they are better than people nadine_mn May 2013 #253

I've known some dogs for whom I'd leap into a burning building to save kenny blankenship May 2013 #257

Depends on the dog-- and on tbe person. tblue37 May 2013 #260

We are all animals. defacto7 May 2013 #262

whatevs... get a dog, care for him/her, make him/her part of your family WhaTHellsgoingonhere May 2013 #273

"I wish I was the man my dog thinks I am" Hekate May 2013 #278

What, another kerfuffle, quinnox? n/t aristocles May 2013 #279

I say ... GeorgeGist May 2013 #282

Say what you will about dogs NoPasaran May 2013 #283

OP wrong on so many levels! vankuria May 2013 #284

And why are humans important? burnodo May 2013 #285

Because we possess the capacity to think of ourselves that way? randome May 2013 #287

And that makes us important because... burnodo May 2013 #288

It certainly makes us unique. randome May 2013 #291

As far as im concerned LostOne4Ever May 2013 #286

Of course they aren't. LWolf May 2013 #292

Actually they are more than people RoccoR5955 May 2013 #293

Is the issue is that some think dogs are people, or that they do NOT think dogs are LESS than people dr.strangelove May 2013 #297

If there was a dog-indifferent person and a normal person in a burning building sibelian May 2013 #300

It is quite strange for people to take that position non-jokingly. Pragdem May 2013 #301

Interesting Rorschach test this thread makes Silent3 May 2013 #302

This what I say. I have cats. Try hurting one of them. Ikonoklast May 2013 #304

+ pecwae May 2013 #313

As a people our priorities are clearly in the right place AngryAmish May 2013 #307

I didn't think anyone could add another facet to this thread but you did. randome May 2013 #308

Sometimes it takes seeing the extremes defacto7 May 2013 #326

because you'd never find pics of fat humans or starving dogs? Skittles May 2013 #333

I think its crazy for people to equate other people as equal to any plant or animal Howler May 2013 #320

Sorry, I actually like dogs better than people and certainly smirkymonkey May 2013 #323

If dogs aren't people how do you explain Goofy? Kablooie May 2013 #330