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In reply to the discussion: We Need 3 Major Parties [View all]
 

Jim Lane

(11,175 posts)
81. The system virtually locks in two parties, with change accommodated through primaries.
Mon May 27, 2013, 12:15 PM
May 2013

Tea Partiers who think establishment Republicans are insufficiently conservative haven't stomped off and formed a new party. (There is a Constitution Party but it's extremely fringe.) Instead, they run right-wingers in primaries, and sometimes succeed in nominating them, against the wishes of the party establishment, and electing them (Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, etc.).

The same has occasionally happened in the Democratic Party, such as Carol Moseley-Braun's ouster of Alan Dixon. (Defeating an incumbent of one's own party is more difficult than winning an open seat, the way Cruz and Paul did, but it can happen.)

The classic formulation is that, if the rules establish single-member districts with plurality election, the result is a two-party system. The reason is that, if a third party forms, the most likely result is that the seat is won by the major-party nominee who is less acceptable to the third-partiers. When the defection to the third party produces this undesired result, people realize their error and the third party withers. The classic example is 2000. Nader's choice to run as a third-party candidate, instead of contesting the Democratic primaries, was widely seen as one factor in producing the Bush presidency. (Yes, there were other factors, yes, he had a right to run, spare me the usual arguments. Just read the next sentence to see the important point.) The result was that, in 2004, Nader's vote crashed, with the vast majority of his supporters from 2000 deciding not to vote for him again.

The Republican Party arose before there were primaries. The Whig Party leadership wanted to be able to contest the South, and so was reluctant to be strongly anti-slavery. If the same situation arose today, Whigs like Abraham Lincoln would run in the primaries instead of joining a third party.

For all its faults, this is actually a better system than what you seem inclined toward. With three or four major parties splitting the vote, there would be a significant danger that the seat would be filled by an extremist (on one wing or the other) who would not genuinely represent the will of the electorate. Runoffs (instead of plurality election) reduce this danger, but it's still a problem. If the vote in the first round is Socialists/Greens 28%, Tea Party 27%, Republicans (right-leaning centrists) 23%, and Democrats (left-leaning centrists) 22%, then the runoff between the top two is bound to produce a winner who is the last choice of more than two-thirds of the people.

By contrast, with plurality election and open primaries, each wing's challenges to the party establishment are fought out in the primaries. If the votes are there for a significant move to the left or the right, then that candidate wins the primary and the general. If the votes aren't there, then the candidate loses in the primary (like, to my sorrow, Kucinich) or wins the primary and loses the general (like several Tea Party candidates, such as Christine O'Donnell).

The role of money is a separate problem. Good electoral rules will produce a winner who's fairly representative of the electorate's preferences. If those preferences are warped by corporate money, you can't cure the problem by tinkering with the party structure.

We Need 3 Major Parties [View all] LuvNewcastle May 2013 OP
They'll become Independents long before they become Democrats. JaneyVee May 2013 #1
Let's hope so. LuvNewcastle May 2013 #3
I completely agree. JaneyVee May 2013 #6
That wouldn't change anything procon May 2013 #28
What we need is one that works randr May 2013 #2
The Tea Party Christian Right will never separate from the business sector of the GOP steelmania75 May 2013 #4
I think there's more of them than that. LuvNewcastle May 2013 #8
Message auto-removed Name removed May 2013 #5
I've thought about this a lot............. socialist_n_TN May 2013 #7
All I know is, we'll definitely have 4 parties if LuvNewcastle May 2013 #10
Well it's inevitable then.......... socialist_n_TN May 2013 #17
some republicans might start finding out they datasuspect May 2013 #13
I don't think they'll change, at least not enough. LuvNewcastle May 2013 #21
You can't stop anyone from joining a party. former9thward May 2013 #9
You can make them very uncomfortable. LuvNewcastle May 2013 #11
Those are elected officials. former9thward May 2013 #15
Message auto-removed Name removed May 2013 #14
That's one thing they do right here in Mississippi. LuvNewcastle May 2013 #16
Message auto-removed Name removed May 2013 #19
I'm taking about the run-off in the primaries. LuvNewcastle May 2013 #23
Message auto-removed Name removed May 2013 #24
They nominee has to win a majority here. LuvNewcastle May 2013 #26
Not sure that's a good idea. Savannahmann May 2013 #12
I'm not talking about dragging the Democratic Party LuvNewcastle May 2013 #18
You're overlooking the vast number of potential voters who are further left, waiting for ... Scuba May 2013 #76
The more choices, the better. bigwillq May 2013 #20
The Winner-take-All system doesn't allow for a 3-party system in our government. BlueCaliDem May 2013 #22
Our liberals are nowhere near as radical as the Teabaggers. LuvNewcastle May 2013 #25
How will that work with the electoral votes? Look at 1968 for instance. graham4anything May 2013 #27
I think the electoral college would favor us. LuvNewcastle May 2013 #29
You dont get it. You need 1 more than 50% of electoral votes to become President. Otherwise... stevenleser May 2013 #51
I suspect three-party systems are inherently unstable. Donald Ian Rankin May 2013 #30
If by "unstable" you mean a greater chance of change, LuvNewcastle May 2013 #31
No, I mean "collapse into two-party systems, and stay that way". N.T. Donald Ian Rankin May 2013 #34
You could be right or you might be wrong. LuvNewcastle May 2013 #36
How many political parties there will be isn't a decision made by any "we". Donald Ian Rankin May 2013 #43
Two party systems are also unstable FarCenter May 2013 #59
On the national scale it seems stable. Donald Ian Rankin May 2013 #60
In the US each party has enjoyed long stretches of control FarCenter May 2013 #66
I think we should have 5, all in the debates Ter May 2013 #32
I agree. LuvNewcastle May 2013 #35
I personally don't think there should be any debates anymore. All they are is gotchas. graham4anything May 2013 #44
Provided its real libertarians LostOne4Ever May 2013 #78
The two corporate parties seized control of the debates woo me with science May 2013 #84
We need complete campaign finance reform. Until we have that and politicians octoberlib May 2013 #33
I'd like to see publicly financed elections, not a penny LuvNewcastle May 2013 #39
+1000000 woo me with science May 2013 #83
Teabaggers and conservatives are different from "republicans"? They are all the same: Republicans. AlinPA May 2013 #37
All of them are our political foes, certainly, but LuvNewcastle May 2013 #40
The political system, by design, defaults to two. nadinbrzezinski May 2013 #38
I don't see why we can't have more than two parties. LuvNewcastle May 2013 #41
It is the winner take all system nadinbrzezinski May 2013 #42
I would really like to see us have a constitutional convention. LuvNewcastle May 2013 #46
The other problem you have nadinbrzezinski May 2013 #48
The Constitution is holy writ to some people. LuvNewcastle May 2013 #53
Exactly, this is a serious problem nadinbrzezinski May 2013 #56
Corporations are only wiling to fund a two party system, so we're shit out of luck...... piratefish08 May 2013 #45
You're probably right, but we've got to try. LuvNewcastle May 2013 #47
Mathematically, three parties doesn't work bhikkhu May 2013 #49
We had 3 candidates in 1992 and 1996. LuvNewcastle May 2013 #50
I was disapointed in Perot's pick of a senile VP, as well as his dropping out/in markiv May 2013 #57
That VP choice was a major mistake. LuvNewcastle May 2013 #64
most nations have more than 2 parties markiv May 2013 #52
Good analogy LuvNewcastle May 2013 #54
A dozen parties where no party had a majority would be a good system bhikkhu May 2013 #68
well, the two party system isnt doing it for me markiv May 2013 #73
3 parties would be worse - that's the point bhikkhu May 2013 #74
I don't think that it's a matter of whether it would be worse or not............ socialist_n_TN May 2013 #80
Why would the repugs split while they are a minority? bhikkhu May 2013 #82
They would split BECAUSE they don't feel represented. Remember... socialist_n_TN May 2013 #87
If there was an OWS party mick063 May 2013 #55
We need 3 Major Parties? bvar22 May 2013 #58
Huey Long had a good story about that. LuvNewcastle May 2013 #63
Thank You! bvar22 May 2013 #65
republicans will never let their bagger 'squidges' (R-word not mine)free,they're not done USING them Sunlei May 2013 #61
That was made impossible by the framers of the Constitution. DevonRex May 2013 #62
those are very good points- "everything republicans do is legal" by sunlei 5/2013 and........ Sunlei May 2013 #67
Exactly. They made slavery legal and ensured it'd be damned hard to get rid of. DevonRex May 2013 #69
We need Instant Runoff Voting Martin Eden May 2013 #70
Read this book: Benton D Struckcheon May 2013 #71
Canada has had three parties or more for 70 years. We are a liberal country. We've applegrove May 2013 #72
The reason the Koch's formed the Tea Party was to drag the Country further right. Scuba May 2013 #75
We have 6 major parties. Democracyinkind May 2013 #77
All good ideas-But fredamae May 2013 #79
The system virtually locks in two parties, with change accommodated through primaries. Jim Lane May 2013 #81
What we need is reform of the system so that non-corporate voices can run and be heard. woo me with science May 2013 #85
Most PEOPLE don't comprehend the simple fact that it was designed DevonRex May 2013 #86
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