General Discussion

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)

107. Of course you can. I have managed to discuss issues and even change minds, by stating facts

Wed May 29, 2013, 10:28 PM

May 2013

and by not making bad analogies. That simply distracts from whatever point you are trying to make. If you didn't want to discuss the merits of the case why did you actually do so? You DID do that by comparing Manning to Thomas. That led me to believe you WERE discussing the merits of the case and were presenting Manning as a man who had no morals or principles. That question lies at the heart of this case. Manning's REASONS for what he did. So to compare him to a person with no morals was discussing the merits of the case. Why not just stick to whatever it was you wanted to say?

Eg, I do not expect people of any group, ethnic, gender, or any other kind of group to be monolithic about any issue. The OP asked a question based on a statement issued by one group who do not represent all of the GLBT community. It would have been very simple to point that out to her. That this group is not representative of the entire GLBT community. Manning has been supported by many in the GLBT community. He has been supported by people from across the board, except by the Far Right. THEY however have Bush to protect since most of what Manning revealed was about the Bush era war crimes.

Which is why I am always puzzled by some Democrats who do not support Manning, and who, I know would have been fully supportive of him had his revelations come out before Bush left office.

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What is the reason the GLBT Community doesn't support Bradley Manning? [View all] KoKo May 2013 OP

Lots of us do. I do. Smarmie Doofus May 2013 #1

Many in the GLBT community do. geek tragedy May 2013 #2

His incarceration is not an LGBT issue. dballance May 2013 #3

Manning's Gayness has become an issue if you read the articles...He's a caring person KoKo May 2013 #5

"Sexual preference"? That's an odd choice of words for an GLBT supporter REP May 2013 #16

Logically defacto7 May 2013 #84

You are technically correct. However, "sexual preference" is an oft used RW meme dballance May 2013 #144

OK, I respect that... defacto7 May 2013 #146

For years, I've bristled at the use of the word 'preference'. ronnie624 May 2013 #152

I should have said "Sexual Category" in the GLBT spectrum. Sorry about that. KoKo May 2013 #226

Gotta love that "...He's a caring person" dballance May 2013 #30

I was in MI with gays and lesbians before DADT even. Talk about great DevonRex May 2013 #85

are you stereotyping the GLBT community by suggesting they all need to think alike? CreekDog May 2013 #147

I think people who have been through challenges and hardships have a commonality KoKo May 2013 #227

Correct SouthCarolina May 2013 #99

are you saying organizations that fight for gay rights should use their resources JI7 May 2013 #4

WHY NOT? That's what I'm asking. KoKo May 2013 #8

because the case has nothing to do with him being gay JI7 May 2013 #18

While I always believe we can do more than one thing at a time, LGBT organizations really hrmjustin May 2013 #78

Simply because someone is gay does not entitle them to unfettered support, does it? randome May 2013 #6

Disagree...I see posts here all the time on DU where Feminists Groups defend their own KoKo May 2013 #7

I think some think he did the wrong thing, same as on DU. randome May 2013 #12

Is one born a feminist? REP May 2013 #17

no, none of those are defended just for being from the same group JI7 May 2013 #25

And you will also note some vehement disagreements on certain feminist topics. stevenleser May 2013 #37

Defending someone right or wrong... Pelican May 2013 #40

Bingo customerserviceguy May 2013 #96

not me. I judge based on individual circumstances. liberal_at_heart May 2013 #50

Not all gay people agree on every issue. hrmjustin May 2013 #80

The idea that being gay creates an obligation to support other gay people who do bad things is daft. Donald Ian Rankin May 2013 #161

Plenty of supporters in San Francisco and around the world. Many Manning contigents in Pride parades Luminous Animal May 2013 #9

err...what? Marrah_G May 2013 #10

Which part of the GLBT community? n/t backscatter712 May 2013 #11

"Gay Pride" ...they Dumped him... KoKo May 2013 #13

Gee who gave you the right to declare that SF Pride = 'the gay community'? Bluenorthwest May 2013 #27

Excellet post and for the record, in San Francisco, the LGBTQ community has Luminous Animal May 2013 #76

Pride organizers don't represent everyone even in their own community, LadyHawkAZ May 2013 #102

Because he was a soldier who had sworn to protect the security of the US pnwmom May 2013 #14

He was a young kid given a security clearance and saw "things" he couldn't tolerate KoKo May 2013 #20

He apparently released whatever he could get his hands on, pnwmom May 2013 #23

pnwmom, Did you see Post #13..the video and link? KoKo May 2013 #26

The link and video are now up in the OP...have you had a chance to view? KoKo May 2013 #205

He couldn't tolerate Castro's favorite ice cream? jeff47 May 2013 #81

If this were true, why was the Collateral Murder video classified? Smarmie Doofus May 2013 #155

Overclassification is a big problem Recursion May 2013 #156

What IS the solution? n/t Smarmie Doofus May 2013 #160

It's slow, gradual, and frustrating, and it's been going on with setbacks and advances for 2 decades Recursion May 2013 #165

So this is just a systemic glitch. Bureaucratic logjam. The Collateral Murder ( so called) video... Smarmie Doofus May 2013 #173

What about it do you think contradicted the public reports? Recursion May 2013 #179

Interesting. You say " group of armed men." Whatever else is on that video.... Smarmie Doofus May 2013 #194

Both the pilot and Assange's narration mention the clearly visible rifles Recursion May 2013 #216

Exactly that AnalystInParadise May 2013 #193

And yet my handwritten notes of interviews were unclassified... Recursion May 2013 #217

He released thousands upon thousands of classified documents without reading them. How SlimJimmy May 2013 #178

Yes he took his oath seriously and refused to keep secret violations by his superiors of that same sabrina 1 May 2013 #38

Which war crime was that? Pelican May 2013 #42

Just as I thought. You know nothing at all about Manning's case. sabrina 1 May 2013 #48

I was just curious... Pelican May 2013 #54

Do you know why Manning did what he did in the end? sabrina 1 May 2013 #64

I've got a solid theory based on what's been presented to the public so far... Pelican May 2013 #70

My understanding is that he loathed Hillary Clinton: ucrdem May 2013 #91

Is that what you think? Wow! Have you read those internet logs sabrina 1 May 2013 #98

That's what Manning wrote in May 2010. Here's the source: ucrdem May 2013 #105

Not even close. No offense, but seriously, read more about it. n/t Smarmie Doofus May 2013 #164

Ron Paul seems to be an obsession with some posters here on DU and KoKo May 2013 #221

I am a retired Army Intelligence Analyst(retired a few years ago) AnalystInParadise May 2013 #73

Many laws have been written in the history of this country. One of them, or so we are told, forbids sabrina 1 May 2013 #79

Because Manning broke the law AnalystInParadise May 2013 #112

Handing over innocent people who were promised by the US that the horrific invasion they endured sabrina 1 May 2013 #137

"He became a whistle-blower when all else failed." (Thank's Sabrina) KoKo May 2013 #219

A whistle blower for what? AnalystInParadise May 2013 #230

He trusted... CanSocDem May 2013 #243

He Did Indeed...and TRUTH will OUT...even though it takes longer than we would wish it to. KoKo May 2013 #257

And what exactly were the crimes he exposed? AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #283

I was a 98G/97B (now a 35L). DevonRex May 2013 #139

Retired 96B/35F AnalystInParadise May 2013 #167

The persecution of dissidents in Iraq. He went to his CO to complain and was told to STFU. Luminous Animal May 2013 #87

I remember Collateral Murder... Pelican May 2013 #90

Actually they posted the entire video prior to releasing the edited one. Luminous Animal May 2013 #114

Really... Pelican May 2013 #122

Yes. I believe he did. I could do it. I am an extra-ordinary fast reader and Luminous Animal May 2013 #133

Yet this is not a skill that Manning ever claimed to have had. jeff47 May 2013 #138

He never said he hadn't read them all. Here is the entire quote from the Lamo chat logs: Luminous Animal May 2013 #201

Wrong again, he most certainly did claim and very believably, to have read through most of them. sabrina 1 May 2013 #229

Math is your friend AnalystInParadise May 2013 #235

Huh....I guess AnalystInParadise May 2013 #253

Note your use of the word "believe" Pelican May 2013 #142

Using that logic, it would take you about two and a half years to read all the material he released. SlimJimmy May 2013 #252

A link to this admission would be most helpful: Smarmie Doofus May 2013 #162

He said it on the Colbert Report AnalystInParadise May 2013 #238

Unethical and illegal are not the same thing AnalystInParadise May 2013 #123

Collateral Damage AnalystInParadise May 2013 #92

I assume you mean this video AnalystInParadise May 2013 #97

Anyone who knows anything about the military and our rules of engagement in Iraq AnalystInParadise May 2013 #109

They do so by forgetting that war crimes happen in wars. jeff47 May 2013 #111

Ok I am an open minded person AnalystInParadise May 2013 #118

Curious about your DU Handle... KoKo Jun 2013 #266

Strange Question AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #267

You should watch the version Wikileaks added comments to jeff47 May 2013 #100

Is this true? US told Reuters that the Collateral Murder video didn't exist? Smarmie Doofus May 2013 #232

LMAO the murder of Reuters photographers AnalystInParadise May 2013 #236

Hmmm.... You're so bitter. Are you in pain? Smarmie Doofus May 2013 #239

I am not bitter at all AnalystInParadise May 2013 #255

* Tuesday Afternoon May 2013 #256

Thanks for demonstrating the dynamic. Smarmie Doofus May 2013 #258

I did not say that. That was not me. I don't alert, either. I did alert back in Jan, 2012 when Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2013 #259

No, I realize that. I'm addressing the verbatim comments of Juror #3.... Smarmie Doofus Jun 2013 #260

yes, but, see that gets into a larger issue than what the jury duty system allows - Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2013 #261

No worries. I'm gonna take it to the Admins. Smarmie Doofus Jun 2013 #262

I think that is an excellent idea. Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2013 #263

I am pretty sure the admins AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #265

Who Pays the Salaries of "the Military Intelligence People" of which you are a Proud Member? KoKo Jun 2013 #268

The company I work for AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #269

And WHO PAYS the Company YOU WORK FOR? THE TAXPAYERS! KoKo Jun 2013 #272

Umm Yeah AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #274

Holy hell what are you smoking AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #264

Well..."Mr. Defense Contractor" Could you learn to post in Paragraph Breaks so your KoKo Jun 2013 #270

No thank you AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #271

I thought not...perhaps you are not what you assume we will respect your posts for? KoKo Jun 2013 #273

I was unaware AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #275

You seem to know Less about Bradley Manning than you do about your own BRAVADO KoKo Jun 2013 #276

I did not realize AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #278

I appreciate you've learned to do "paragraph breaks." KoKo Jun 2013 #279

Ok, so personal attacks continue AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #281

Bravo though for trying to attack me on a pride angle AnalystInParadise Jun 2013 #282

Is that a black helicopter I hear? Pelican Jun 2013 #280

From Bradley Manning's statement at pretrial... Luminous Animal May 2013 #245

And he also released thousands of diplomatic cables indiscriminately, thereby putting pnwmom May 2013 #52

What, specifically, were these violations? jeff47 May 2013 #83

You know man.. Pelican May 2013 #93

I thought you knew the facts surrounding the Manning case. Are you saying you do not? sabrina 1 May 2013 #94

I do. I want to hear your interpretation. jeff47 May 2013 #95

I'd like to hear your interpretation as I have many times stated the facts about this case. I don't sabrina 1 May 2013 #101

Really? You can't even write a single sentence describing a violation? jeff47 May 2013 #104

As I thought, you have no knowledge of this case yet take a position on it. My references were to sabrina 1 May 2013 #115

No, I have plenty of knowledge. jeff47 May 2013 #127

Every question you just asked demonstrates that you know nothing about this case. sabrina 1 May 2013 #149

Manning IS NOT A WHISTLE-BLOWER. Ikonoklast May 2013 #183

Manning is the very definition of a Whistle Blower. sabrina 1 May 2013 #199

You keep repeating that treestar May 2013 #222

It's called "evasion". You probably won't get a straightforward answer, but thanks for trying. Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #116

Oh, this is about the 7th or 8th thread where she's done this. jeff47 May 2013 #130

7th or 8th? You obviously stopped counting. It's a poor tactic, but used to extremes... Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #140

It's you again. I really am puzzled by your obsession with me. sabrina 1 May 2013 #151

Perhaps you could provide one of your infamous "Links" to where I intimated such a thing? Tarheel_Dem May 2013 #188

Your referenced peace activists... Pelican May 2013 #106

The Iraq War was illegal. Everything about it should have been revealed in a court of law and sabrina 1 May 2013 #121

Got it... Pelican May 2013 #126

No, I'm surprised you think the 'world should run on emotions'. I disagree, I think it should sabrina 1 May 2013 #153

At this point... Pelican May 2013 #159

NAILED IT Number23 May 2013 #163

Well done! zappaman Jun 2013 #284

Ok. So what did that have to do with Castro's favorite cigar? jeff47 May 2013 #131

You keep saying that AnalystInParadise May 2013 #132

a lot like how corporations and the 1% get away with what they do. They pay liberal_at_heart May 2013 #135

The UN will never do anything the US does not want them to do. But other countries have sabrina 1 May 2013 #141

So you thought the war was legal... jberryhill May 2013 #154

I know it's late, but even that doesn't explain why anyone would write such a totally sabrina 1 May 2013 #158

We are so AnalystInParadise May 2013 #166

Absolutely nailed it. Bobbie Jo May 2013 #175

FYI..the poster you are conversing with thought Anwar Awlaki was a 'non-violent' cleric. msanthrope May 2013 #182

Facts? Okay, here are some facts from your (and my) hero, Daniel Elsberg on Bradley Manning: sabrina 1 May 2013 #197

So to summarize AnalystInParadise May 2013 #203

That's the most cogent and concise argument I have seen in this thread. Bravo. SlimJimmy May 2013 #251

Great post! zappaman Jun 2013 #285

Manning released material that had nothing to do with his *superiors* SlimJimmy May 2013 #181

See Daniel Elsberg on what was revealed by Manning. I will take his word over anonymous sabrina 1 May 2013 #192

If Elsberg had signed a non-disclosure agreement with the US government, SlimJimmy May 2013 #196

Elsberg was prosecuted with several felony charges. He was retired from the military sabrina 1 May 2013 #198

Okay, at least we agree that Manning couldn't have possibly read all of the material SlimJimmy May 2013 #204

We don't agree on your premise, which is false. As Gates himself said 'no harm was done' sabrina 1 May 2013 #214

Manning mindlessly released hundreds of thousands of classified documents (fact) SlimJimmy May 2013 #223

You've expressed an opinion, proving nothing. Daniel Ellsberg put it very clearly to dispel sabrina 1 May 2013 #246

You still won't answer the questions I asked. I can understand why. That wouldn't fit into the SlimJimmy May 2013 #249

i taught at the school house AnalystInParadise May 2013 #231

Thanks and +1 ...Younger DU'ers don't know what or who Daniel Ellsberg was about... KoKo May 2013 #212

Ellsberg was a true hero and patriot AnalystInParadise May 2013 #237

But,Dan Ellsberg considers Manning a Hero...Link: KoKo May 2013 #241

That's what people said about Ellsberg also. Your constant refrain that Manning exposed no sabrina 1 May 2013 #250

Ellsberg is a hero for the Pentagon Papers AnalystInParadise May 2013 #254

There is a difference between Ms. Toad May 2013 #15

Why not? If we Feminists look deeper into issues about our own..as do other support groups KoKo May 2013 #21

Being gay does not entitle someone to unquestioned support. Ms. Toad May 2013 #75

+1. pnwmom May 2013 #24

I not only support him, I admire and respect him Laughing Mirror May 2013 #19

Absolutely...but, where is the "support network" this kid really needs? KoKo May 2013 #22

The same reason some (most) African Americans don't support Clarence Thomas or Herman Cain stevenleser May 2013 #28

Are you equating Bradley Manning with Clarence Thomas or Herman Cain? KoKo May 2013 #29

Define equating. In the sense that some of their group doesn't support some of what they do? Yes stevenleser May 2013 #31

I see you do respond to some posters Bluenorthwest May 2013 #33

What a ridiculous response to a reasonable analogy (nt) Nye Bevan May 2013 #35

You're comparing Bradley Manning, a person courageous enough to report war crimes when he witnessed sabrina 1 May 2013 #44

The OP proposes a borderline discriminatory question. I gave an example of why it is discriminatory stevenleser May 2013 #62

Ain't nothing "borderline" about it. Number23 May 2013 #65

Probably true, but I'm being generous since OP seems oblivious to what they have done here. nt stevenleser May 2013 #67

Your analogy was a bad one to make that point. You would need to have compared someone sabrina 1 May 2013 #68

You cannot get to the point to discuss that if someone is being discriminatory stevenleser May 2013 #72

Of course you can. I have managed to discuss issues and even change minds, by stating facts sabrina 1 May 2013 #107

To do so is a kick in the face to the discriminated against group. I won't do it. stevenleser May 2013 #110

Oh please, that is so childish. How do you change minds if you refuse sabrina 1 May 2013 #150

That is very easy for you to say. You are not part of the group being stereotyped here. stevenleser May 2013 #169

What's puzzling? Purplehazed May 2013 #148

Please AnalystInParadise May 2013 #168

thomas and cain aren't dissidents, they're agents of state power. stupid analogy. HiPointDem May 2013 #46

And what does that have to do with their skin color? jeff47 May 2013 #86

Good analogy... SidDithers May 2013 #56

Yes, indeed. A man who supported John Kerry. A man who protested against Luminous Animal May 2013 #119

Manning supporting Kerry sounds unlikely. ucrdem May 2013 #134

He was a member of the Stonewall Democrats which supported Kerry enthusiastically. Luminous Animal May 2013 #200

Recommend...Thanks for the Photos and Links about Manning and Stonewall Dems KoKo May 2013 #202

Thanks for including the video in your OP. I was at that protest, though blocked from attending Luminous Animal May 2013 #206

Thanks...I had it posted at #13 in the thread but, no one read it even though the KoKo May 2013 #209

I don't see any evidence that Manning "supported John Kerry" ucrdem May 2013 #207

He a Democrat and a member of an organization that ENTHUSIASTICALLY supported Kerry. Luminous Animal May 2013 #208

Agree...shocking that a Dem Poster would call Manning a "Libertarian" without KoKo May 2013 #210

Manning says in a 2/32/2009 chat that he is NOT a Democrat: ucrdem May 2013 #213

I believe thinking reasonable people should stop replying to KoKo on this thread. dballance May 2013 #32

Post #13 has not had an answer. KoKo May 2013 #34

So You're Ignoring post #27 that responds to #13? dballance May 2013 #36

The perils of keeping people on your Ignore list (nt) Nye Bevan May 2013 #43

Bottom line: Your OP is borderline discriminatory as it proposes the LGBT community is monolithic stevenleser May 2013 #39

Steve...what is Your Feeling about Bradley Manning? KoKo May 2013 #41

Oh please. Stop being deliberately obtuse with the "Clarence Thomas" nonsense. Nye Bevan May 2013 #45

it's steve who brought up clarence thomas. HiPointDem May 2013 #47

Just. Stop. (nt) Nye Bevan May 2013 #49

stop what? steve brought up thomas. fact. HiPointDem May 2013 #58

What does Thomas's skin color have to do with his crappy decisions? jeff47 May 2013 #103

steven brought him up. that is my only comment beyond the comment, to steve, that it's a HiPointDem May 2013 #113

So you completely missed the analogy. jeff47 May 2013 #117

there is no analogy. HiPointDem May 2013 #125

Only because you lionize one and demonize the other jeff47 May 2013 #128

I cannot have this conversation under this OP. nt stevenleser May 2013 #66

+1 Canuckistanian May 2013 #51

You think that the LGBT movement... Pelican May 2013 #61

+1000 maddezmom May 2013 #53

I agree. liberal_at_heart May 2013 #55

+1...nt SidDithers May 2013 #57

And once again, you demostrate why you are a TRUE ally to our cause... Behind the Aegis May 2013 #60

Thank you BTA stevenleser May 2013 #176

Thank you. cordelia May 2013 #63

Or why even GLBT Yo_Mama May 2013 #82

I find it more than borderline TorchTheWitch May 2013 #157

You're right, but as I said above in #67, I don't think the OP really understands that. stevenleser May 2013 #172

Exactly. I agree totally. NYC Liberal May 2013 #215

I believe the racist penguins are behind it. LeftyMom May 2013 #59

Fun fact of the morning... Pelican May 2013 #71

Who among the LGBT community are you referring to, specifically? Anyone here? Zorra May 2013 #69

I knew you would... KoKo May 2013 #191

Oh, yeah, I get it now. Duh. Zorra May 2013 #242

Many of us do, but it is not a LGBT issue so our organiztions probably don't want to touch it. hrmjustin May 2013 #74

It is not a GLBT issue Yo_Mama May 2013 #77

How did being gay force Manning to leak classified information? (nt) jeff47 May 2013 #88

LGBTers that are Obama loyalists and/or log cabin types don't like him. the one who bad mouthed him boilerbabe May 2013 #89

also the middle east war hawks don't like him. HiPointDem May 2013 #124

"Human Rights campaign snob type gays " JI7 May 2013 #129

wasn't he also white? male? a soldier? a liberal? La Lioness Priyanka May 2013 #108

should planned parenthood, emily's list etc support Bachmann, Palin , etc ? JI7 May 2013 #120

Uh-oh. Cue "How dare you equate Manning to Palin"? (nt) Nye Bevan May 2013 #136

I'm not entirely certain if cross-species support should be encouraged. randome May 2013 #224

Thats a mighty big brush your painting with and it's not dipped in rainbow paint. William769 May 2013 #143

I think you're labouring under the misapprehension that homosexuality is a political position. sibelian May 2013 #145

For the same reason Capt. Obvious May 2013 #170

170 replies Sissyk May 2013 #171

Well said. mattclearing May 2013 #174

It's not a GLBT issue IMO. n/t RKP5637 May 2013 #177

Your OP is really offensive Marrah_G May 2013 #180

And the "follow ups" are even worse. Behind the Aegis May 2013 #234

The GLBT community, by and large, does support Bradley Manning KamaAina May 2013 #184

This message was self-deleted by its author KamaAina May 2013 #186

Thanks, KamaAina, KoKo May 2013 #189

So any GLBT person who is accused of any crime.. MicaelS May 2013 #185

Mannings "Human Rights and Dignity" have been violated. He is gay and KoKo May 2013 #190

Is he gay? I thought he had 'gender personality disorder' and wasn't even sure himself. randome May 2013 #195

I was unaware that Manning was gay until just now KamaAina May 2013 #187

He's actually transgender FreeState May 2013 #211

He's very young ...figuring out where he finds himself in GLBT Community is KoKo May 2013 #220

Why didn't the straight community support whistler162 May 2013 #218

Maybe because it has nothing to do with him being GAY? jazzimov May 2013 #225

See my post just above, #220. KoKo May 2013 #228

He should be Grand Marshall and FREE. :-/ - K&R n/t DeSwiss May 2013 #233

Not sure of the premise of OP: LGBTs don't support Bradley. Largely we do. But.... Smarmie Doofus May 2013 #240

I've known a lot of gay conservatives. LuvNewcastle May 2013 #244

No secret handshakes or coded plans to corrupt the world? Huh. How disappointing. randome May 2013 #247

Not corrupt.....just rule :) Marrah_G May 2013 #248

the GLBT community does not have to agree on every issue adric mutelovic Jun 2013 #277