General Discussion

hunter

(40,830 posts)

136. You say that dancing for the gods is working, that the sacrafice is worthwhile...

Fri May 31, 2013, 05:07 PM

May 2013

... but some of us look around, and clearly it's not working. Money is the means by which a wealthy minority controls the majority. The USA has become an oligarchy.

Maybe the "liberty and justice for all" we seek is impossible in an economy where everything and anything can be exchanged for money, either legally or illegally.

Maybe we should remove certain things from the ordinary market, things like adequate food, appropriate medical care, safe shelter, and education; make it a human right to simply "be," to watch the butterflies if that's all we want to do. Possibly we could establish a national service of farmers, doctors, educators, builders and conservation workers. Or, if you like, we could express these same values as a guaranteed monetary income. We could determine what percentage of the gross national product is required to support everyone in some generous fashion, and then say that every citizen has a single "share" in that portion of the U.S. economy, with a single vote, and an equal stake in every corporation that is allowed to do business here. We might accomplish our goal with taxes.

People will say, "Oh, giving people a free ride will kill productivity, it will kill the incentives to work."

Personally I think killing "productivity" as it is now defined would be a very good thing. Our productivity is destroying the natural environment that ultimately supports us. I also think most people will strive for more than a basic living, especially if free education is available. The nation will be shaped by the dreams of its people, and not by the very wealthy people who measure the value of all things, including their own "success," in dollars.

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do we really need a money system? [View all] undergroundpanther May 2013 OP

It's a good dream. defacto7 May 2013 #1

So is being able to fly... brooklynite May 2013 #129

I don't care what ya say, Orville. Jackpine Radical Jan 2015 #151

How do you think they got the supplies at the hardware store? brooklynite Jan 2015 #152

Yes... TreasonousBastard May 2013 #2

Agreed Sherman A1 May 2013 #7

why does it have to have a value undergroundpanther May 2013 #12

Okay, I will take the bait. Sherman A1 May 2013 #22

I'll say it. I love money! Throd May 2013 #69

Well said ChazII May 2013 #89

Thank You Kindly, Sherman A1 May 2013 #94

okay, what would you barter to me for food, whats the skill or goods loli phabay May 2013 #39

No. Profit is compensation for time, effort, and investment FrodosPet May 2013 #43

Profit is theft? You sure about that? TampaAnimusVortex May 2013 #63

I think the concept being express is that "extra" profit is theft... brooklynite May 2013 #91

No, thats not at all whats being attacked... TampaAnimusVortex May 2013 #110

So will we all be living in lean-to's collected from branches in the woods? pnwmom May 2013 #82

I think it means I grow the poster food and you provide whatever else they need loli phabay May 2013 #85

No we get their DU musings. dkf May 2013 #120

Profit is theft? WTF? Bay Boy May 2013 #108

No, profit is LIFE Yo_Mama May 2013 #112

If you think being a truck driver isn't or can't be thrilling...... A HERETIC I AM May 2013 #127

That's not thrilling, it's terrifying Yo_Mama May 2013 #134

Barter is a myth. The 'barter system' that is found in the first chapter of any intro to economics Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #15

When work becomes more democratic (and more meaningful), Ron Green May 2013 #3

No, but yes. Currency makes a complex and expansive economy possible, so we really do need it Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #4

I just can't picture an advanced civilization from another planet using tokens. Spitfire of ATJ May 2013 #5

yeah undergroundpanther May 2013 #8

The token is not the problem. The rules are the problem. We can change the rules. nt CJCRANE May 2013 #20

All of our oldest archeological finds have shown our nature is to form communities... Spitfire of ATJ May 2013 #40

baloney. cali May 2013 #116

Sure it does, once you get past the stone arrowheads. Spitfire of ATJ May 2013 #119

Lion prides at least try to chase away the hyenas FrodosPet May 2013 #44

Ok sport DonCoquixote May 2013 #45

Tokens are money. MineralMan May 2013 #54

And tokens would just be another form of money anyway. nt pnwmom May 2013 #81

Actually, it's the other way around. Spitfire of ATJ May 2013 #84

It just needs to be spread around more evenly. Here's something I wrote previously on that topic: CJCRANE May 2013 #6

Why not just share what you have undergroundpanther May 2013 #9

sounds good, but why would you toil twenty hours a day loli phabay May 2013 #41

Children give nothing in return. magellan May 2013 #60

children do, they are the future and like our aging parents they loli phabay May 2013 #61

Using your definition they don't magellan May 2013 #62

Also, if everyone has what they need magellan May 2013 #66

somebody will srill have to work their ass off digging ditches loli phabay May 2013 #71

That's where you're wrong magellan May 2013 #74

depends what you mean by being productive, loli phabay May 2013 #78

Why would they move into your cabin? magellan May 2013 #80

the point was that someone will still have to work to produce what the op wants loli phabay May 2013 #83

Of course people will still have to work magellan May 2013 #96

well i am more cynical knowing the world as i do, yes some people will sacrifice for others loli phabay May 2013 #101

I'm already doing that with my little sis and her fiance and baby FrodosPet May 2013 #55

money does not motivate me undergroundpanther May 2013 #13

If it's a burden Lurker Deluxe May 2013 #32

and if this society you want decides that your art is useless loli phabay May 2013 #49

Buying art materials motivates you. Other people have children, that motivates them CJCRANE May 2013 #124

Agree with you me b zola May 2013 #10

silly season. people that think that without money or religion or whatever, evil would cali May 2013 #11

Those who want to live controlled undergroundpanther May 2013 #14

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense. sweet nonsense, but nonsense all the same. cali May 2013 #17

but money is pieces of paper undergroundpanther May 2013 #18

When I was 14 or so, that's exactly what I said. I had this conceit cali May 2013 #21

So there is no brute force in the animal world? CJCRANE May 2013 #23

"Control land"? Really? Silent3 May 2013 #35

I think you need to move here--- snooper2 May 2013 #50

ok, that was fascinating as well as beautifully produced and edited cali May 2013 #64

Vice, they have great journalists, real journalists- snooper2 May 2013 #67

Really interesting treestar May 2013 #126

Any of those emotionally capable people willing to put in Codeine May 2013 #141

How to keep corruption out? undergroundpanther May 2013 #19

that's so easy to say, so impossible to do. How do you not tolerate it?` cali May 2013 #24

corruption wouldnt ne the main issue it would be laziness loli phabay May 2013 #42

People "working their asses off" is how we got into this mess. hunter May 2013 #111

Not sure about that one treestar May 2013 #135

how? undergroundpanther May 2013 #16

social reality IS shared belief. really. cali May 2013 #28

and yet DonCoquixote May 2013 #47

I would get rid of paper money and coins. I myself only use $4 bucks a week in cash. graham4anything May 2013 #25

What do you do when the power goes out? FrodosPet May 2013 #46

Do like NY/NJ is doing with gas stations-mandatory generators. graham4anything May 2013 #48

you realise the problem was with the networks not individual gas stations loli phabay May 2013 #51

That's something I have been advocating since long before 2003 FrodosPet May 2013 #53

Still don't need cash for that. All of that could be harnessed by other methods of energy. graham4anything May 2013 #114

There would still be robberies without paper money. JVS May 2013 #113

Just to add my two chickens worth... jtuck004 May 2013 #26

Exactly, Pro Forma orpupilofnature57 May 2013 #27

let me try again. Money is a social construct; a social reality cali May 2013 #29

when the earth is owned by labor and there is joy and peace for all in the workers' commonwealth Douglas Carpenter May 2013 #30

Worked great in Russia and China so whyn't! whistler162 May 2013 #31

This brings back memories FreeJoe May 2013 #33

Not everybody can do what they want to do. Travis_0004 May 2013 #34

Yes. DanTex May 2013 #36

Well . . . YarnAddict May 2013 #37

Yes we do! Javaman May 2013 #38

Some would agree Shankapotomus May 2013 #52

If you think everyone should be a subsistence farmer or gather geek tragedy May 2013 #56

I think the point is that you and I should be and then we support the poster loli phabay May 2013 #58

You can abandon the world of money anytime you want. MineralMan May 2013 #57

Perhaps if the human race had never gone down the money road it could have happened. raouldukelives May 2013 #59

Even in Star Trek they had a type of payment. Neoma May 2013 #65

I think that was a Voyager perversion of the original vision. hunter May 2013 #79

Certain items are still important to keep around. Neoma May 2013 #90

10 credits for a Tribble brooklynite May 2013 #117

That was a frontier space station. hunter May 2013 #118

...and who, exactly, backed the value of that credit? brooklynite May 2013 #128

Is this a religious belief? I think it is. hunter May 2013 #131

Who here is upset? brooklynite May 2013 #132

You say that dancing for the gods is working, that the sacrafice is worthwhile... hunter May 2013 #136

So your issue is NOT "money"... brooklynite May 2013 #140

I'm happy with my apples, thank you. Sometimes a little ugly, but 100% organic. hunter May 2013 #143

I'm fearless undergroundpanther Jun 2013 #144

Sometimes they did, sometimes they didn't, depending on the need of the script of the moment. Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #123

But how will I get all the stuff I need? longship May 2013 #68

If everyone in the world had "a decent home car T.V.", we'd need to produce a lot more muriel_volestrangler May 2013 #70

Not necessarily more, just different. The volumes of production we currently have are sufficient to Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #121

I think about this a lot. hunter May 2013 #72

Dude, we would so get along. n/t Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #122

How many proctologists really love their jobs? n/t cigsandcoffee May 2013 #73

just the assholes n/t Godhumor May 2013 #99

K & R, good out-of-the-box discussion dreamnightwind May 2013 #75

A little OT, but in a similar vein: Newest Reality May 2013 #76

Yes, and as an accounting major... I'm glad it's here to stay. nt Pragdem May 2013 #77

You would certainly have to change majors if it went away. Nimajneb Nilknarf May 2013 #87

I see a human population that values material possesions more than humans . olddots May 2013 #86

Tell us which products you're willing to give up... brooklynite May 2013 #88

What will solve our economic Shankapotomus May 2013 #92

I think you're being more than a little naive. Captain Stern May 2013 #93

This is impossible because there would be no incentive to work. Dash87 May 2013 #95

All this means is that you are burning through your all-to-short life toiling for someone else's Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #97

I doubt people want to spend hours of their lives away from their families Dash87 May 2013 #98

You just don't seem to know those people. Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #102

Another problem : how to produce anything advanced? Dash87 May 2013 #100

Why? Because you say so? You don't know anybody that loves building machines, none of your neighbors Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #103

kinda hard to mass produce the electronics you are using in your garage loli phabay May 2013 #104

Your lack of imagination does not constitute a limit on what is possible. n/t Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #105

Cooperation throughout the globe without money would be a total failure, imo. Dash87 May 2013 #109

I think I just lost 20 IQ points after reading that Uzair May 2013 #106

If they have to teach a Marx in college whistler162 May 2013 #115

While this would work in hippie communes Warpy May 2013 #107

Yes, we do. One example: bobclark86 May 2013 #125

I semi-agree. I don't think our means of barter is efficient or fair. Cleita May 2013 #130

I think this would be an interesting experiment. hunter Jun 2013 #148

In matter of fact, no we don't need it anymore. TRoN33 May 2013 #133

Money exists for everyone's convenience. Captain Stern May 2013 #139

What everyone needs, maybe never all they want Spike89 May 2013 #137

Ego & Greed cause competition . orpupilofnature57 May 2013 #138

Nope. Ego and greed cause competition to go overboard Spike89 Jun 2013 #149

Why not just compete against the nature and death and aging rather than against each other? konzay Jan 2015 #150

For now we do.... Mojo Electro May 2013 #142

How could the Government raise taxes without one? (nt) Nye Bevan Jun 2013 #145

What would the government need to raise money for if there was no money? nt limpyhobbler Jun 2013 #147

I don't know but I think we should experiment with it. limpyhobbler Jun 2013 #146

Uh, rich people need it, else they won't get to keep everything for doing nothing. nt valerief Jan 2015 #153